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The 718 elephant in the room...

30K views 288 replies 72 participants last post by  mcacs 
#1 ·
In addition to the 4-cylinder 718 weighing more than the 6-cylinder 981, I am also compelled to point out the following:

Although the 718 boasts impressive low-rpm torque on paper, it is important to remember that this low-rpm torque does not happen immediately. It may produce X-number of pound-feet of torque on a dyno at 1,900 rpm, but it probably happens after about three seconds of wide-open throttle at that low engine speed. So if you have a manual transmission and are caught out in the wrong gear, you're effectively stuck with a tiny normally-aspirated Subaru 4-banger for several seconds, until the turbo spools up. Or you can mitigate the low-rpm turbo lag by downshifting several gears- but you could have done that with the Porsche flat-6 that this engine replaced.

The other thing, is that (as has been pointed out by others before me) that it takes fuel to make horsepower. If you think you're going to drive the turbo Porschubaru in the same sporting manner that you drove a Porsche flat-6 powered 981 and get better fuel mileage, you've got a big surprise coming. The only way you're going to get better fuel mileage out the Porschubaru, is to drive it like a Toyota Pious, to intentionally PREVENT the turbo from spooling up. And if you're going to drive it like a Toyota Pious, you might as well just BUY a Toyota Pious.

Much like the auto start/stop features of new cars, the benefits of the Porschubaru only exist on paper.
 
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#192 ·
China is already a bigger market for Porsche sales than the mature US market and has only just started to boom it's middle class, four cylinders get preferential tax treatment...think about it.


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#201 ·
China is already a bigger market for Porsche sales than the mature US market and has only just started to boom it's middle class, four cylinders get preferential tax treatment...think about it.
But they don't buy convertibles, much less 2-seaters.

Attributing the 718 move to 4 cylinders to the China market just doesn't work right there.

The fuel savings are also simply not working out, not even as far as manufacturer's mpg values are concerned. CO2 emissions equal mpg, so there.
 
#215 ·
Shrieking harlot said:
Sir my current DD is a BMW228i and I get over 30MPG going 80 MPH on the freeway. If I bring to 60-65 MPH I easily get 36 mpg. So BMW cars get significantly better gas mileage that their previous NA counter parts...you are blowing smoke my friend!
You really need to calm down.
 
#223 ·
It takes fuel to make power. A turbo car only gets higher MPG when driven in such a way that the turbo doesn't engage. This is because the turbo is generally accompanied by a small 4 banger with just enough power to cruise the car. Driven proper, a turbo 781 will have less MPG than a 981 and new EPA tests show that.

The NA engine reached its limits some time back. Porsche needs to use turbos so their cars aren't considered slow compared to competition. It also allows helps to keep up with government MPG mandates.

Seriously, if you drive the car and strive to get more than 20 MPG, you really bought the wrong car. These cars gulp fuel and use it to shoot fireworks. The simple fact is you can buy a 30k eco family sedan instead of a 70-100k sports car if you are concerned about saving money on paying less for gas. Doing so will allow you to pay for gas for life even if you got 10 MPG. Most people don't buy or care about MPG with these cars (especially the large majority that don't daily drive) and the move to turbos isn't about that...it's more to do with people who like to quote 0-60 times and for some reason a 981 S to 60 at 5 seconds is considered slow (nevermind 6 seconds in the base car) today.

What is disappointing is that Porsche is not more innovative. Taking an existing platform, making a fe minor tweaks, and downgrading it to a turbo 4 banger that sounds bad is boring. Surely the company could do something different and outstanding (perhaps using electric motors as in their race car). I guess they want to remain a niche brand, but what's sad is even their fanatics are rejecting their ideas. Perhaps they have some form transformation planned and this is just start to something better, otherwise I think an idiot is captain of the ship.
 
#226 ·
Drive a 4cyl 1.7L 2100 lb, manual steering, brakes, trans, butt-on-the-ground for years, then move to a NA 6. The 6 is sweet! But the 3000 lb 981 feels less chuckable. And way too big. For me, BMWs drive like trucks, sorry. Even a Miata felt lumbering after my 914. I get used to whatever power is there and then it's not that thrilling. But agility, etc., never lose their appeal. If I win the lottery I'm buying a 914-6. In the meantime, the 981 is pretty sweet, quieter and safer than my 914. But I wish it were lighter and smaller... I really get the guys who swear by motorcycles, too.


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#229 ·
Drive a 4cyl 1.7L 2100 lb, manual steering, brakes, trans, butt-on-the-ground
You may have just described the 4-cyl, sub-911 car Porsche should be introducing...
 
#228 ·
" If we want to make this relevant to 718 forum...the 718 is better than the NA 6 in every way except the sound and I am sure some portion of the buying public will find it to be more fuel efficient than the NA version. "

I beg to differ !, it is an inferior engine in many ways.

Cheers
 
#233 ·
I see the wink but I'll make this clear. There are three fundamental rules here. It's fine to discuss rules, regulations, and laws. They are what they are. Discussion on politics, religion, and sex are not fine, nor is trying to talk around it with slogans or by throwing out statements that allude to political positions. Somebody will be offended. So we stay away from. The forum is to discuss vehicles, not political positions.

thanks for understanding.
 
#234 ·
When I buy a 6 cylinder Porsche it's for driving excitement and pleasure, and its treated as a garage queen. Every 4 banger I've ever bought, it's a beater, to be driven and abused in foul weather, whatever. That's the way it has been for decades, and I'm not anxious to change. In fact I just bought a CPO 991 sunroof coupe with NA 400Hp 3.8L and 3000 miles on the clock, and I'm lovin it! :)
 
#235 ·
Do we have a separate, unique, thread for actual member write-ups of 718 test drives? I know, I should search....


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#242 ·
I was in Germany In April for 2 weeks. I can say as whole, the county is very green. They care about environment/ emissions. The lady prime minister has lots of strict environment mandates. They have zillions of wind turbines in the country and seeing solar panels on roofs is the norm. Houses and apartments are small or "just enough space." You must organize your trash in 4-7 very specific categories and its checked before pickup (they simply don't pick it up if they find something wrong). AC usage is discouraged and people open windows. Gas furnaces are used (no inefficient electrical heat pumps). Parks larger than NY Central Park are very common (5+ of them in each city). Most roads have a dedicated bike trail and there are lots regulations about to how to ride (so much traffic you find a "bike horn" is very useful). Grocery stores are tiny and sell tiny portions (no gallon jugs etc). There is a complex train system...all towns are connected and usually taking the train, walking, or using a bike get you around anywhere in the country. The most common cars are subcompact hatchbacks with tiny desiel engines (they love the smart car and similar sizes) and they have a dedicated "country or town crossing" station wagon (BMW 3 series desiel wagon or similar). There are literally near zero pickup trucks (they use vans instead). Seeing a Porsche anywhere is actually very rare...if you do drive one, you are seen as a rich polluting slob.

Once I got back to the US, there is a obvious sense of how trashy and wasteful we are.
 
#243 ·
Given that Germany is a bit bigger than New Mexico but with a population density three times the US, its not surprising they are pushing to get rid of ICE. This article tells the tale Farraguter | All new cars mandated to be electric in Germany by 2030

Someone might think 2030 is far away but just think back to 2003. What were you driving. For those with flat 6s, I would hang onto them because they will be truly gone .... and then become valuable. Those that lease them or trade up for the latest and greatest might be regretting it if this pans out.

Germany sets out major cash incentive for electric car buyers | Germany | DW.COM | 18.05.2016

Germany to launch 1 billion-euro discount scheme for electric car buyers | Reuters

This is starting to look serious.
 
#244 ·
Given that Germany is a bit bigger than New Mexico but with a population density three times the US, its not surprising they are pushing to get rid of ICE. This article tells the tale Farraguter | All new cars mandated to be electric in Germany by 2030

Someone might think 2030 is far away but just think back to 2003. What were you driving. For those with flat 6s, I would hang onto them because they will be truly gone .... and then become valuable. Those that lease them or trade up for the latest and greatest might be regretting it if this pans out.



Germany sets out major cash incentive for electric car buyers | Germany | DW.COM | 18.05.2016

Germany to launch 1 billion-euro discount scheme for electric car buyers | Reuters

This is starting to look serious.

Yeah, as long as they remain road-legal.....
 
#245 ·
I have no animosity towards Porshe for introducing the turbo engine in the boxster/Cayman line. Of course I wish the flat 6 could go on forever - but that is not reality. If the flat 6 never existed many would find the new 718 an amazing engine and have no issue with it. However, I'm cognizant that significant change is coming to all automotive manufacturers. We are only at the beginning phase. So when I'm given the choice of an outgoing brand new flat 6 or a new turbo I chose the former realizing thus will (probably)be the last brand new flat 6 car I can buy from a legendary Motorsport company. Ferrari's sweet sounding v8 is gone from midengine line other manufacturers are also moving to the turbo template. For people who just want the porshe or Ferrrari, etc. words or emblems on their car really don't care what is propelling them - some of us do. That is why you are seeing so much passion on these pages. The trading of my Ferrari for a GTS was intentional. Yes there are discernible differences in the cars but the sound of the engines are different but the same - loud sonorous winding - by the way it is hard to find words to translate what I mean - but they provoke emotion when driven. And that is why some people will continue to seek out and buy the NA engines. And I think that is why the original poster aptly selected the title of this thread.
 
#272 ·
If the flat 6 never existed many would find the new 718 an amazing engine and have no issue with it.
At the price that Porsche is asking for the 718?

While BMW has small cars as convertibles (Z4 still made, 2-series) that you can have either cheap or with a 6-cylinder? The SLK is there, too. They got rid of the naturally aspirated v8 in the SLK later than Porsche dumped the 6-cylinder in the boxster/cayman. You can still buy the SLK55, maybe you can even order it today.

What is the most expensive 4-cylinder convertible that has no 6-cylinder upgrade? I think those are all in the Miata class, price-wise. The A3 maybe? Not up-to-date with Audi.
 
#246 ·
"For people who just want the porshe or Ferrrari, etc. words or emblems on their car really don't care what is propelling them - some of us do."

This comment is so passive aggressive and condescending...in your round about way you are saying folks that want a Turbo powered Porsche or Ferrari are posers...pleasssse!
 
#248 ·
Interpretation is an interesting thing - thanks for misinterpreting my post. Re-read ithe entire post in context. Read the third sentence again The post was about choices - that we have them - in a phrase "to each his own". I expressed what I chose and why. It was not meant to be adversarial or provoking. It was not condescending. I never implied nor did I state that there was anything wrong with conspicuous consumption nor anything wrong with wanting to buy a 728 turbo. . What I meant was people walk in and buy Ferrari, Porsche, etc.and don't care about and sometimes even know how many cylinders the car has. Theat doesn't interest them. In fact if you read other threads on this topic you will find those very words written by euthuisisrs on here - they don't car about sound and they don't care about NA or turbo - they want speed and handling. . While anecdotal - some of these people are related to me or are friends who have done well in life and want to have that badge. That is why Ferari products - shoes, jackets, hats, sunglasses etc sell so well. However, as innocuous as my comment was it seems to have struck a nerve with you. You have reacted on any inferred criticism or outright critics my of the new turbo as if you were the chief engineer. And you should read the title of the thread and maybe ask why the original poster chose that title. I I honestly hope you enjoy your 718 if you ordered one as I'm sure you wish the same to me with my new CGTS. now shall vacate said room.
 
#250 ·
Thanks. And apologies to you and any other member that interpreted that way. I started a thread called fromturbo to hybrid to electric - I started because I really believe it is reality. Porsche are going to sell the 718 - no red tag sales necessary for Porsche. At times some things keep me up at night - Porsche dropping the flat 6 and going to the a turbo 4 is not one of them. But I think it is an interesting discussion. It is controversial. Historically, change, it seems, is often met with controversy. The discussion and points of view are a by-product of this. I believe the new coke had it detractors and supporters. This change will be no different. All the best.
 
#267 · (Edited)
Where I lived in Western NY State, in the the Federal Govt did build US 20 with the first clover leaf interchanges anybody there had seen (sometime around 1939-1940?). Bridges and Cloverleafs were used when crossing other State and Federal highways. It was certainly a precursor system to the Interstate Highway System. US 20 still carries a fair amount of heavy truck traffic across WNY. These highways generally but not always bypassed towns and cities for faster traffic flow. But smaller county and local roads and a few driveways to private homes still connected without cloverleafs. Today, many of these 4 lane divided US Highways still exist and many have been further upgraded, typically with 65 mph limits. Some of that old US Highway system right of way was taken over and upgraded for the Interstate Highway System, begun under President Eisenhower.
Now, can we please get high speed Autobahns built across the USA?
 
#276 ·
I saw and heard the 718 S in person yesterday at a PCA meeting at Porsche Conshohocken (near Philly).

The sales manager turned on the car and revved a few times. The sound was amplified due to being in an enclosed showroom. It wasn't quiet. It didn't sound great, but it actually sounded decent, with some nice pops from the exhaust on the overrun. It just has this raspiness that makes it sound like there are steel pellets in the exhaust manifold. I would rate it a C+

It didn't sound hopeless. If you're willing to buy a full aftermarket exhaust, it could make great power and a nice sound. I don't hate it as much as I did.

Here's a video which doesn't quite capture the full effect, as somehow even the best exhaust sound videos can never do.
 
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#280 ·
If the Federal Government of the US is actually serious about reducing our dependence on oil then they would close the loophole that allows all car based SUVs and "lifted" wagons to be classified as trucks. Reclassify all unit body SUVs as cars and then you'll see some actual change.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if the political will to phase out ICE powertrains will taper off a bit as the world continues to endure a lack of warming and continual miscalculations and inaccuracies from computer climate models. The satellite record shows very little warming, and you can only ignore that info for so long.
 
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#281 ·
However, I wouldn't be surprised if the political will to phase out ICE powertrains will taper off a bit as the world continues to endure a lack of warming and continual miscalculations and inaccuracies from computer climate models. The satellite record shows very little warming, and you can only ignore that info for so long.

Now there is a serious can of worms to open! I suspect that a lock may be coming.

However, while I agree with the lack of congruity between the models and reality, facts are not really relevant anymore. The Hollywood crowd has determined that we should drive Prius's and any dissent or questioning of the dogma is now considered heresy. Not sure what happened to the science.
 
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