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Here's what's wrong with the 718

22K views 253 replies 42 participants last post by  unconscionable 
#1 ·
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/673808582/overview/

That's $103K (911 or FType R $) for a car which on a technical basis arguably competes with the Ford Focus RS and Subaru WRX.

How does one not look like a fool owning this thing?

Incidentally, I stopped at my dealership last weekend- they must have had at least a half dozen 718's sitting around. It's noteworthy that they elicited no interest from either myself or my wife. And I'm a terminal car enthusiast. For reference, I just took delivery of my third P-car, a 981 Spyder. I paid significantly less than above. How does that make sense?
 
#5 ·
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/673808582/overview/

That's $103K (911 or FType R $) for a car which on a technical basis arguably competes with the Ford Focus RS and Subaru WRX.

How does one not look like a fool owning this thing?



Incidentally, I stopped at my dealership last weekend- they must have had at least a half dozen 718's sitting around. It's noteworthy that they elicited no interest from either myself or my wife. And I'm a terminal car enthusiast. For reference, I just took delivery of my third P-car, a 981 Spyder. I paid significantly less than above. How does that make sense?
You can option the 981S to over the $100000 as well. You can option these things to the hilt. Most dealers will not order one like this as they are hard to sell, but this dealership must want to have one on hand for that one person that does like to load up their car and not worried about how much they will eat on resale. The Spyder is built for a different person that wants a purist driving car. If you add the options this thing has you would be over $100000 as well, and still have to get out of the car to lower and raise your top and have to deal with that obnoxious noise it makes.
 
#7 ·
I completely agree. It costs way too much for what it is. It is however superior to what's offered from many competitors, but I think in 1-2 years that will change when new cars come out...at this point Porsche will probably redesign the car.

What is ridiculous is Porsche base price is misleading. Most cars will have 15-30k of options...configured by dealer or custom ordered. And a Porsche car with zero options is IMO not a good car.

The 718 is made for Porsche diehards who will buy their products no matter what. Yes a smart buyer would actually look into other brands/cars and find better (or what fits them better anyway). To answer your concern...no one is forcing you to buy the car.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Actually most reviewers say skip the base because it's turbo is bad (response, feel, and perf). Porsche wants you to get a loaded S...Always has been this...base car is afterthought of "how can we hamper the performance, quality, and experience for a poor shmuck you wants to save money." The build cost of S model is the same or similar as a base model...the latter only exists for marketing.
 
#19 · (Edited)
How did he identify the market correctly? There is not one person on the planet cross shopping Ford Focus and Subarus with a Porsche Boxster...not one! What has changed? The number of cylinders and exhaust note and the performance increases. The pricing has barely changed at all, no more than any other car that comes out with a new model.
 
#25 ·
It is a bit more complicated than just being too expensive.

Two things stand out to me:

1) the base price for a 718 convertible (Boxster) is actually very reasonable. Keep in mind with the competition you usually pay big $$$ extra to open it up

2) it is a small car that allows you to add premium options, in fact the only one on the market right now. Higher quality leather, full leather, high end stereo, ventilated seats, DCT, even ceramic brakes.

The problem is that those two don't combine. Once I turn it into a cool car (for me) it is too expensive for what the base is (4-cylinder turbo, simple struct suspension in rear etc).
 
#26 ·
4 weeks ago I bought a GR/Blk 2015 CPO 911 Carrera S with 3000 miles on it and 5 years of warranty remaining. The MSRP was $34k more but the price i paid was $1500 less than a similarly optioned 718 Cayman S in the configurator, and my 911 has a few additional items like sunroof in Glass (which is really pleasant to drive with back of glass tipped up) and a 400Hp NA 3.8L that sounds awesome with PSE turned on or off. The larger cabin space is nice too. The weights in the configurator are only 87 lbs apart. The 911's increased rim and tire widths along with the weight distribution give it tremendous grip and on the track it can exit corners faster, applying power sooner. Not sure how the Nurburgring lap times would compare. It's my 9th Porsche and my first 911, so we named it Nine. I'm a happy camper.
 
#32 ·
A reasonably optioned 982S will easily be $80-$100K. Just look at the top 100+ listings on cars.com if you disagree.

At the end of the day it's a 4 banger competing against the Z06, 911, FType S/R, etc. At its price point, it is completely outclassed.

It feels like Porsche is simply exploiting its name- which in the process it has cheapened.

While a new $80k+ WRX equivalent might inspire looks of admiration from the likes of hair dressers, I doubt the car will command much respect from the car enthusiast demographic- which will likely translate to poor resale value.
 
#49 ·
Calling people posers because they do not follow your line of thinking is mature?? I know you did not use the word poser, but you in your round about way did. My post has received three like already so I am not the only person that was offended by the way you post your points of view. It is not a point of view if you are demeaning other people.
 
#57 · (Edited)
It's sad that, on this Boxster / Cayman forum, someone like Shannon [with whom I don't entirely agree] has to defend her opinion of the 718 with such gusto - as there is equal gusto coming from the naysayers.

I own a NA Cayman and have no current interest in the 718. However, as this is a Porsche Cayman / Boxster fanboy / enthusiast forum, shouldn't we be somewhat more tolerant of models different from our own? The latest conversations seem more like marque vs. marque fanboy rantings than a Porsche discussion board.

I think we need to remember that this is the 718 board, and [as such] it is designed for like-minded individuals to come and discuss their cars - without a constant negative assault from owners of 981's.
 
#60 · (Edited)
This has a lot of good points. It does seem like marque vs marque as somehow seems as the sound and 2cylinders were removed it's not anymore a Porsche or worthy of being a Porsche... a subaru with a Porsche badge ? I don't know all the jokes/references...
It does seem the car handling, interior, look, performance are now meaningless, as "Sound" is the only measurement of "soul". (this is now a fact as is usual when the "majority" of people think alike)

I do enjoy discussions, but it's a waste of time here, the general consensus by everyone is that the car is not worth it, but it is worthy enough to read, discuss, and copy paste the same couple of quotes in every single thread.

I did buy a 718, I don't need the status or the fashion. I buy what I like If I can, now in regards to the armchair BS'ers... no idea what that is or who its referred to, but it probably works both ways considering some are going out of their way going into a forum of something they have no interest in besides showing how "not good" or "worthy" it is.

Theres probably a few threads on the 981 section showing how "bad" or "not worthy" or "not good" the 718 is, why don't we just stick there instead of trying to change people minds/values by repeating the same quotes.


Now I re-read my own statement, It seems wrong for me to say what you should do, it's not my place to even suggest to stay out or not engage if your interest is showing how much better your thing is by saying the other is bad. Theres two ways to having the tallest building in a city etc etc. So for that I apologise and I'm out.

(I mean: out of this thread)
 
#65 ·
"We were facing a complex task,” project leader Jan Roth tells us. “Marketing wanted to move the mid-engined twins further away from the rear-engined 911. The dedicated means to this end is the new four-cylinder boxer."


They accomplished this also by making the 911 a Turbo and giving it even more power and a bigger price tag. I think most 911 owners will say the new 911 does not sound as good or have the soul that the NA 911s have. This is alone makes me question Jan Roth's honesty. Why does he not come out and just say changes were made to meet emission requirements...whether they be real or on paper??
 
#68 ·
I think they would have had to go to turbocharging across the 911 line even without regulatory or tax incentives. The NA flat-6 has been pushed about as far as it was ever going to be pushed. Keeping up in the horsepower wars was about to get VERY expensive; e.g., the Carrera would have to get a GT3-class engine.

Most 911 fans understand that at some level, I think. That's why we haven't heard as much grumbling and complaining from them as we would if, say, Porsche used a more powerful variant of the 718's four-banger in the 911.
 
#66 ·
I've owned many German 4's, flat and inline, including a Porsche, plus one 5, and two flat 6s. My 6s were/are much nicer than the 4s I've owned. Have not tried the 718 6. It could be an exception, but I don't expect it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#71 ·
I think people are getting emotional because the 981 was so close to perfection. I'm so happy that I've had a chance to own such an awesome machine. Maybe some day, when it's wearing out, I'll try whatever Porsche is building at that time. The 718 should be amazing, but my past experience is that turbos are temperamental and four cylinders vibrate more than I would prefer. It's not about maximum hp for me.

For those who are buying a 718, you will get a great car. There are competitors out there, but there's still no real competition.
 
#72 · (Edited)
How does one not look like a fool owning this thing?
Kman has already admonished you for this discussion so I will just focus on your question ...

Q. How does one not look like a fool owning this thing?

A. Because if you are interested in performance and equal drivers on the Ring, they will be waving bye bye to a Spyder? :confused: In that case, who got the most for their money?

2017 Porsche 718 Boxster First Ride Review - Motor Trend

"Porsche timed the new 718 Boxster S around the famed Nürburgring circuit at 7 minutes, 42 seconds. According to Porsche factory lap times, that’s ... 5 seconds ahead of the just-released Boxster Spyder, and just 2 seconds arrears of the much-appreciated Cayman GT4."

Imagine what a 718GTS will do.:eek: It will have a Ring time as fast as a 991.1S.

If you don't care about performance but only value, then I presume most everyone knows PAG sells cars and options based upon value based pricing, that is, what the market will bear. As others have noted, $100K for Boxster is a bit ridiculous. One can easily spec a $85K 718S. Thats clearly a lot car.

Just saying ... time marches on. Everything gets faster. We can live in the past and the world will pass us on or we can embrace the future and deal with it. Your choice :) We all make choices. Choose wisely.

But there is no need to bash those who choose the future. That makes Boxster/Cayman owners who do that no different than the air cooled 911 owners who refused to embrace the water cooled future of the 996/997/991. You will be left behind ... And I hope 981 owners don't turn bitter like the 911 owners who refused to embrace the future. It will get ugly.
 
#75 ·
Q. How does one not look like a fool owning this thing?

A. Because if you are interested in performance and equal drivers on the Ring, they will be waving bye bye to a Spyder? :confused: In that case, who got the most for their money?
Yes...It is funny how Porsche makes world-renowned sports cars, yet people forget that most sports cars are defined by their performance first and foremost. Sounding great while being passed on a track by a four banger is essentially telling the world, all bark and no bite...

As much as I loved the GT4 and how it sounded, it was missing some of that bite down low... I would have traded some of that amazing sound for more power in a heartbeat.

Like many here I wish to have my cake and eat it as well (718 S performance, but with an NA6), but it wasn't meant to be. In the meantime, I am going to enjoy watching my fellow Cayman lovers receive their 718/718S and congratulate them on getting one of the best drivers cars out there. We will just have to be a little more quiet than usual :)
 
#73 ·
I agree with Shannon's posts honestly. They have more practical sense than others. The problem is people get emotional about their car. Usually it means defending themselves as to why their car is great and others are worse. But that's the thing...people buy these cars out of emotion and it has never been about realistic 'I need a car and this one fits the the check boxes.'

The 981 cars are actually really flawed and far from being practical and perfect. There's something about them that just stands out. Maybe its the noise, the good balance of practical and sport, or maybe the raw nature of a early development transmission coupled with a quirky NA engine. Imperfection has soul and perfection is mechanical and boring.

The thing is, people who buy and drive these cars do it out of emotion. The 718 becomes better, but takes SOME emotion out it hence people don't approve. I don't necessarily think its right, but it is what it is. Many sports car companies are looking for way to survive and the strategy for some is to develop cars that people like to drive for the experience rather than pure performance and practicality. Porsche sadly seems to be going the mainstream direction to develop perfect daily/street/GT driving machines. Its neither bad or good...some things are gained and some are lost... it is what is and thankful you are able to decide for yourself what you want.

Fact is, the world is moving towards autonomous (electric) cars. Car brands can't keep up with electric self driving machines without using turbos. Turbos have been around a long time now and in order to stay competitive, car brands must adapt or go extinct. So the point is you either become an old miserable old grumpy man or move on and focus on the positives. The 718 actually sounds decent and better than what these forum would have you think. The performance is superior in all aspects, but some of its soul dies. Move on.
 
#74 · (Edited)
The assertion that 4 cylinder turbos are some sort of visionary path to the future is simple nonsense. Electric cars- maybe eventually, but for now the closest competitor is the Tesla: which at 5000 lbs will carve corners about as well as my house, and can't make it a fraction of the way around the 'ring without overheating it's batteries

As has been cited, this was a strategic decision to distance the boxster from the 911. The marketing department copulated with the accounting department and they spawned the $80/$90/$100k 4 banger. In this sense, it is a revolutionary product- I don't think anyone has yet been able to charge more for less. It's a wonder that all other manufacturers with sports cars in this price range aren't falling all over each other to follow suit. Porsche must be on to some thing no one else knows about. Or not. Could you imagine Chevy rolling out the next gen Z06- with a 4 cylinder lump? They'd be laughed out of production. Weird that Jaguar seems to think its client base wants more cylinders and more displacement. Then there's that flat plane crank thing from Ford- completely backwards. Sure.
Now sit back and await the inevitable reliability issues that'll accompany the overblown small displacement engine.
Caveat emptor.
 
#76 · (Edited)
Porsche must be on to some thing no one else knows about. Or not. Could you imagine Chevy rolling out the next gen Z06- with a 4 cylinder lump? They'd be laughed out of production.
PAG uses value based pricing. Do you really think it cost $500 to use red dye vs black in seat belts? Or $3000 for deviated stitching with a different dye? They can charge whatever the market will bear and stay within their profit margins. Since they are the most profitable car maker in the world on a per unit basis, Yeah they do know something more than the other companies - when attached to an iconic racing heritage - YES they can charge more for Chevy for a perceived less. In fact, that Chevy, for less money, can bury those 981 and 718 car and Porsche can still be more profitable than GM could ever dream of. This should be obvious.

There is an old folks home where the air cooled guys hang out. They lament about the lack of true dry sumps versus this modern integrated dry sumps and the "good old days" when real men drive air cooled rear engine cars and knew how to handle massive oversteer without nannies. They bought their car on Friday and raced, not track day but raced, on Sunday. They argue about euro spec grey cars vs American spec EPA cars. They dish and bash those new fangled water cooled 911s and the 986 - (not a real Porsche), nm those SUVs :rolleyes:

The virtual pcar community should be embracing these 718 cars and their owners. Current owners should be welcoming them into the community and not criticizing them because you feel your decision making process is better than theirs. Yes PAG can sell whatever they want at whatever price they choose - because the can. Chevy can't. Yes, Porsche is that good. And there is a place in that old folks home of air cooled 911 owners for those who to this day retain their Luddite values while the world moved on. PAG is no longer a sports car company. They are a SUV company that sells some sports cars. And those future sports cars will be driven by E-Mission. You don't drop $1,000,000,000 into a factory and R&D for fun.
 
#77 ·
I'm not bashing anybody, but when I specd a 718 Cayman S, it came out $1500 higher than my CPO 991.1 C2S, but without sunroof. That sealed it for me. As far as the hot Nurburgring time, we all know that was a PDK 718S versus the other two manual tranny models. So that's apples and oranges. Some of us just prefer manual, no matter how much faster a PDK is. At 71 and retired, the manual is a lot more fun for me. Maybe if I had a nasty daily commute... Maybe in another 10-15 years I'll want a PDK.
There are, no doubt, plenty of people who will like the 718s. That's great. But there will b people who will b happy there will be some sweet low mileage used 3.4s and 3.8s available for some time to come.
 
#80 · (Edited)
As far as the hot Nurburgring time, we all know that was a PDK 718S versus the other two manual tranny models. So that's apples and oranges.
It is not apples and oranges. Its OEM, performance options, vs OEM, performance options. When they took your 991.1S to the ring in 2012 and Timo Kluck put up a 7:37:9, he did it with a SPASM, PDK, PDDC, PCCB car and surely none of the luxury options that just add weight. That's how PAG does it with their factory drivers. You run what you brung. Period. Whining about "Poor me - no PDK" doesn't cut it. Could've, Should've Would've ... doesn't work in the real world. sorry

And guess what? If you don't like the car or their pricing strategy you don't have to buy it.
Exactly, if you don't like it ----- leave. Don't buy it. CYA .... Don't let the door hit you on the way out ... Bye Bye :taunt:

Now that said ... to be fair to both sides, PAG (well the old PAG) might be one of the few car companies that actually listened to their consumers because they had no choice. It's been my experience that car companies can be very arrogant. For example, they keep building station wagons when SUVs had taken over. They come late to the game. Planned obsolecense. They tell consumers they MUST buy the latest model because the tail fins have been redesigned and you own the old stuff, etc.

In the case of the old PAG, in the late 1970s they had decided the Rear engines cars were done. The future was the front engined I4 and I4 Turbo. And if you wanted to pay serious money, you bought the front engined V8 928. For more than a decade this was the decision and marketing clearly targeted different demographics. By the late 80s, the I4 Turbo was FASTER than the 911. And then came the American CEO and the Luddites refused to buy the front engined cars, even though the 944 Turbo and 928 cars were quicker. So they voted with their wallet and poof ..... no more 944 ... no more 928 ... at one time only the 911 survived.

Can this happen today? Can consumers cause PAG to stop making the flat 4 turbos? Highly unlikely. That was then, this is now.

1. Euro specced cars were not certified for the US. US emissions were more stringent. Today, the reverse is true. The EU emissions is driving this, not CAFE (yes Ralarcon I know ... yada yada yada ;))

2. US was THE market. Period. Today, the US is a secondary market to China in both units sold and profit.

3. 944 sales at one time were MASSIVE, at one time TRIPLE 911 sales. 964 sales were abysmal - pitiful. Today, 911 sales dwarf boxster/Cayman sales for more than a decade. The roles are reversed. If 718 sales lag, they can't lag that much more without just being abolished.

4. Cayenne and Macan sales combined totally bury Cayman/Boxster sales making them insignificant in the complete PAG sales picture.

So can consumers voting with their wallets be effective? Probably less so than in the early 1990s for these three reasons: Emissions and government regulations, US is no longer the dominate market space, and US 911 sales vs entry level cars sales roles have reversed in a dramatic fashion. Think about that last one. Whereas the entry level cars once held a 3:1 ratio sales dominance, today that ratio is 0.67:1. Pretty sad. BTW, I have NEVER heard any rational explanation why those sales ratio have reversed in such a dramatic fashion.
 
#83 ·
"2. US was THE market. Period. Today, the US is a secondary market to China in both units sold and profit."

True, however, Porsche's largest Sports Car market is still the US. It is also true , that the character of the company is changing when Porsche's most profitable products are the Trucks and Sedans.

Cheers
 
#89 · (Edited)
I'm not whining po me. I love manual even if it is slower. It's a lot more fun than the PDK, for me. I probably wouldn't have traded off my Macan Turbo if it had manual and a great exhaust note. Now Im a happy camper again with my manual tranny C2S with PSE. Wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe in the future.
 
#90 ·
I'm not winning po me. I live manual even if it is slower. It's a lot more fun than the PDK. I probably wouldn't have traded off my Macan Turbo if it has manual and a great exhaust note. Now Im a happy camper again with my manual tranny C2S with PSE. Wouldn't have it any other way.
I plan to order mine with a manual as well, below 5 seconds with a manual is still plenty fast enough and more fun! Although I work from home and don't have to deal with traffic usually. Good choice! Love those 911s with glass sunroofs!
 
#97 · (Edited)
Well, that is what allot of Porsche folks reply if you comment on them driving the car too hard. I assumed there was some truth in it. My car will never be driven like that. I have never driven my BMW over 100 MPH before. Frankly, it scares me a bit. Its not the speed that scares me so much, its the stopping distance...good brakes or not:)
 
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