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Emperical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world testing

15K views 40 replies 16 participants last post by  JCviggen  
#1 ·
I just like knowing stuff, so I went to above-average lengths to understand the gains made by ECU tuning with the Cobb Accessport on my Cayman GTS PDK after fitting Fabspeed race headers to the otherwise stock car. Independent testing is always more fun than taking salesmen at their word.

About those headers, to say that they wake up the car is an understatement. And not just the car, the rest of your neighbourhood too. Louder and a tiny bit dronier with the valves closed, but manageable and I got used to it pretty quick.My other half did not notice the difference with the valves closed even.

It's sufficiently civilized for me. Valves open increases sound and drama to a huge degree. The difference is an order of magnitude different than with stock headers. Closed = pretty calm but open = all hell breaks loose. I imagine that this is a feature of all catless headers, I just happen to have Fabspeed as I picked them up on Panjo for half price.

An increase in midrange power is very noticeable. At high revs you can't really tell, the only real difference is that your car is making a sound usually reserved for race cars or lrare Italian stuff three times the price. My car being a CGTS, the gains are going to be smaller than those seen by an S model since my car already keeps the throttle fully open to redline to get to that 340 rated crank HP. So the average Cayman S should get 10-15whp higher gains than what I got, in theory anyway.

Unfortunately I do not have any representative data for the car pre-headers. I have logs from the Cobb accessport with stage 1 but the car was on summer tires and temperatures were 10 to 15 degrees C warmer. In any case, I wasn't that interested on what the difference would be like on OTP maps stage 1 versus stage 2. What I wanted to know is how big the difference with the stock map was, and how much the Cobb OTS left on the table.

I used Fabspeed's protuner, Steve. A man of not that many words but lightning quick responses at times when you'd think he would be asleep (middle of the day in Europe). Sometimes I got an updates map less than 10 minutes after sending him a log. In total he sent me 4 maps, the baseline was only a little different to the OTS stage 2, but the maps got more aggressive with each revision.

Logging the ignition timing told the biggest story. The car was running in pretty cold air, and each of these 3 runs on different maps showed no per-cylinder corrections at all. So all cylinders ran the this level of timing throughout the run.

Image


This resulted in the following difference in acceleration between the Cobb Stage 2 and the pro tuned map from Fabspeed, datalogged with the Cobb AP:

Image


At this point I started calculating and extrapolating and figured that power had increased something in the neighborhood of 20 horsepower from stock. But there were some assumptions to be made and eventually I set F it and went to a dyno nearby.

Each map was flashed in right before the runs were done. None of the maps had any adaption time.
Red= stock map
Blue= Cobb stage 2 OTS
Green= Fabspeed protune

Image


A few things to note:


  • The protune gains are bigger relative to OTS maps than OTS to stock.
  • The stock map does already get some benefit from the catless headers. How much we don't know. Anywhere from 2 to 5 peak HP if I had to guess.
  • The peak number for the stock map seems a tad inflated (2 to 4hp) from the unnatural little spike it made at 7100 RPM. There may have been some traction loss (a bit slippery the first 2 runs we did due to melting snow from the tires)
  • The winter tires (275/35 R20 rear) most likely do lower the wheel power measurement by as much as 10-20hp. But we only care about the delta anyway.

Keeping all that in mind, the stock 340 HP car gained roughly 25 whp over fully standard by adding headers and a pro tune. To get a bump to 365-ish BHP strikes me as good value for these mods, and I see no reason to add an IPD Plenum. In fact the tuner advises against it for these motors. The only thing I might still add is Fabspeed or Bcvelocity exhaust tips.

If Porsche rates their cars semi accurately, a Boxster/Cayman S could gain 40whp where I only got 25 due to the higher starting point.

GPS logs confirm the gains as well. I use a 10 Hz bluetooth GPS logged and Circuit tools software to verify.

I found some numbers of a German car magazine who do independent testing. In their testing, a Cayman GTS PDK did 100 to 160 km/h in 5.8 seconds. My car did it in 5.82s on summer tires fully stock. So my car performed normally. The crappy weather cut short testing before I ran the final map, but the penultimate map from the protuner did 100-160 clicks in 5.43 seconds. Winter tires do seem to slow the car down by 0.1s in this test so the new time is on the slower side of the curve.

For comparison, a GT4 does it in 5 seconds dead in the same German magazine's testing, so the upgrades have put me in the middle between a stock GTS and a GT4. Possibly a bit closer to the GT4 than to stock.

Finally, a video on the dyno itself. Obviously the sound gets normalized by the phone, you couldn't stand close to it without covering your ears.


The bottom line: If you want more power out of your car, these mods are the most value you're going to get for the money. A protune is a must as it's relatively inexpensive and makes most of the difference at the end of the day. Fabspeed's guy is great. Making logs on the road may not be ideal, but I do believe it's the best environment to tune a car in principle due to totally realistic loads and airflow. It works. I wanted to test on a MAHA LPS3000 dyno to get a better idea of the crank figures but it turns out there's only one of them in this city and it's owned and operated by a Mercedes dealership.
 
#3 ·
I just purchased the Fabspeed sport headers (with cats), and already have the FVD tune (which is fantastic btw). I should be installing in two - three weeks; and will also do a before and after Dyno test on the same day.
 
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#7 ·
Well, it will be a long day, as once those OEM headers have been dynoed it will take some time for them to cool sufficiently to remove them and install the FS headers. And while the headers take an hour or so to cool, the engine block takes many more hours to get reasonably cool enough to work on. Good luck!
 
#4 ·
Cool post thanks for sharing.

@barcuri nice... I will be curious to hear your take on the Fabspeed headers with cats ...both with regards to power gains but also any sound/volume increase....
 
#5 ·
You can't switch to a stock map with the FVD can you?

I don't have any experience with their maps, but I am very confident that any off-the-shelf map is going to leave a lot on the table. It just has to work in too many different cars, environments and varying degrees of fuel quality to ever be spot on. I wasn't surprised to see the Cobb OTS maps running close to stock ignition timing as a result.

Can you log ignition timing? That would tell most of the story.
 
#9 ·
JC, you can switch to the stock map with the FVD tune. I do it when I go in for service or maintenance. The My Genius device lets you pick any map that you have stored on it, and then you flash the one that you need.

I have a "stock" map, which is essentially a backup of my original Porsche factory ecu state; I also have a "Stage 1" map that is for cars with no mods, and now a "Stage 1 + header" map that FVD provided to me.
:cheers:
 
#6 ·
Awesome -- I just bought the Fabspeed race headers, center radiator kit, and Cobb protune from Fabspeed and once it's done being fabricated they'll be installing it all since I'm close to them. I'm hopeful it really wakes my car up, too! I don't have the PSE kit on my car, but that hopefully won't restrict my power too much, and better should keep the sound under control, which is more my concern.

I'm not sure I'll have the time to detail my experience like you did, so thanks for that! Only thing I've been trying to do is keep an eye on my g-meter during acceleration to see if I see an improvement there. As it gets closer, I'll probably try to do a variety of runs and reset the max g readings each time and then check what it read. Do the same after install and see if the computerized "butt dyno" can measure a difference.
 
#8 ·
Yes you can switch to the stock maps with the FVD tune, you send them your stock tune, and they send you back both your stock tune and a modified tune to load into the tuning device (Mygenius).

Cheers Les
 
#14 ·
OP awesome work, I have a COBB protune and Cargraphics race headers waiting to be installed. Your post confirms what I have been told regarding the pro tune vs OTS and expected gains. Mine will be different, as we have different cars, but hoping for 15-20HP. We'll See.
 
#16 ·
Looking forward to getting it done! Thanks for the added info! I unfortunately live pretty far away from a dyno shop, but in the spirit of metrics, I may consider getting a pre and post run done as I am really curious what a 2.9 motor will do! BTW, I said 15-20 as I have a 2.9.

You will get a lot more than 15-20 total. You will almost get that from the protune alone. This is what someone got with CG headers and the COBB protune on a 981S. I think you will be pleased. When calculating back to crank numbers it something like +40 HP and TQ each.

View attachment 131050
 
#21 ·
I really, really appreciate all this info. I have a GTS MT, and hope I might realize similar gains.Since my previous experience in this area consists of putting a Steve Wong chip under the seat in a 1986 Carrera, might I impose on you for the precise info on which Tune and which header you chose? Any info or advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#23 ·
might I impose on you for the precise info on which Tune and which header you chose? Any info or advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I think that should be pretty obvious from the title and text :) But I was using Fabspeed race headers and a Fabspeed protune through the Cobb accessport.

I don't think the brand of header matters as much as the fact that you need a Cobb PRO tuner to do the tuning for you rather than use the regular off the shelf Cobb maps.
 
#29 ·
The bottom line: If you want more power out of your car, these mods are the most value you're going to get for the money. A protune is a must as it's relatively inexpensive and makes most of the difference at the end of the day. Fabspeed's guy is great. Making logs on the road may not be ideal, but I do believe it's the best environment to tune a car in principle due to totally realistic loads and airflow. It works. I wanted to test on a MAHA LPS3000 dyno to get a better idea of the crank figures but it turns out there's only one of them in this city and it's owned and operated by a Mercedes dealership.
Jan it has been amazing watching this thread come along, and want to thank you personally for posting up your educated feedback for the benefit of the Porsche community. This is without a doubt the most detailed and professional Fabspeed product testing/review to occur outside of our facility. It has been a pleasure working with you, and if there is anything I can do for you in the future do not hesitate to ask :cheers:

Great post! Thanks for all that legwork! I am also going the headers and tune route only when I get to around to it.
When that time comes give me a shout, i'd love to make it happen for you :)

Awesome -- I just bought the Fabspeed race headers, center radiator kit, and Cobb protune from Fabspeed and once it's done being fabricated they'll be installing it all since I'm close to them. I'm hopeful it really wakes my car up, too! I don't have the PSE kit on my car, but that hopefully won't restrict my power too much, and better should keep the sound under control, which is more my concern.

I'm not sure I'll have the time to detail my experience like you did, so thanks for that! Only thing I've been trying to do is keep an eye on my g-meter during acceleration to see if I see an improvement there. As it gets closer, I'll probably try to do a variety of runs and reset the max g readings each time and then check what it read. Do the same after install and see if the computerized "butt dyno" can measure a difference.
Everything should be done and ready for installation my friend! Let me know when you can drop off for install and we'll get the party started haha.

I installed fabspeed sport headers on my GT4, keeping stock exhaust. Unfortunately, I did not take any data before putting them on, but there are dyno charts on fabspeed's website that show some decent gains just from the header. Sound is great. Here are some videos:

https://youtu.be/ZV52ts0iiOQ

https://youtu.be/eIHHNp5ALJY

and the first 15 sec of this one: https://youtu.be/6FVXwXg8TB0

With valves closed, it sounds nearly stock - quiet enough for a long drive.

BTW: installing the headers was very easy. I posted a file on that process - http://www.planet-9.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=433.
Thanks for posting these! I'll forward along to our marketing guys and see if we can add you to our website :)

Thanks. I appreciate it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Let's chat about getting you set up, I'd love to have you join the Fabspeed community :)
 
#30 ·
Re: Empirical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world test

Bumping this one as I've gathered a bit more real world data on my car's performance this weekend.

It was the first time I had taken the car out on track since it became, well, non-stock. One more modification has been added to the car since I started this, some DREAM2 exhaust tips. Unfortunately I wasn't able to do much before and after testing to figure out if these things really do gain a small amount of horsepower or not.

What I will say is that they improved the sound my car makes, subjectively speaking. On the stock tips, the catless headers and PSE made a very loud and harshly high-pitched scream. The DREAM2 tips have taken the edge off the harshness somewhat, the volume is still all there but the pitch is a bit lower, more racecar-y, and ever so slightly less ear splitting. I even think it has reduced the drone inside the cabin a bit. It was also a doddle for my mechanic to fit and lines up perfectly. It's a good product in my view. They only had silver tips in stock though, the look of which I don't like, so I painted them matte black with some 650C rated spray paint. It held up well on track.

So I took part in the Club Cup of the local Porsche club. It's a time attack format, 3 practice sessions and 4 timed sessions of 15 minutes each. I was on old (2013/2014 manufactured) Cup 2's, the tire of choice for basically everyone in the competition. They seemed to do OK in the morning when it was cold and gray, but when the sun came out later and the track temp increased they lost a lot of grip. I topped all three practice runs and the first timed session, for the final three runs the guy who had run me very close in the other sessions suddenly started going a lot quicker as the temperatures went up. I ended up .8s behind him but .1 in front of a 718 BS in third. All these guys have had dozens of days on this track whereas it was the first time for me on proper tires, so I'm going to order a new set and try to win the next one.

More interesting to you guys, probably, is the speed trap data. It was taken before the final corner after a long-ish straight, and I can directly compare my speed to those reached by a stock-ish 981 CS which had at least an exhaust, a 981 GT4 and the 718 BS. The speeds varied a bit session to session though, and if you braked later you obviously got a slightly bigger number too.

My modded GTS: 193.9 km/h (120.4 MPH) - I did later in the day improve my speeds a bit as I was still learning, seeing a high of 195+ km/h (121+ MPH)
Stock-ish 981CS: 189.8 km/h (117.9 MPH)
Stock 981 GT4 : 196.4 km/h (122 MPH)
Stock 718 BS : 197.4 km/h (122.6 MPH)

As a 981 GTS is only marginally faster than a CS in a straight line, being about 3 MPH ahead of the CS and 1-1.5 MPH behind the GT4 seems to me like a good result and in line with earlier estimations of about 365 crank horsepower. I was happy to confirm that the protune holds up as well on track as on the road, even if though was tuned back when ambient was 5 below 0 Celcius.

Here's the fastest lap I did, at the very end of the day. The GoPro sound does not do the actual aural experience any justice, sadly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HdFkvFaZHc
 
#31 ·
Re: Empirical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world test

Hello JCviggen,
Thank you for your positive comments about the DREAM2. It is a simple device but it works.
BCVelocityexhaust
Jim

Bumping this one as I've gathered a bit more real world data on my car's performance this weekend.

It was the first time I had taken the car out on track since it became, well, non-stock. One more modification has been added to the car since I started this, some DREAM2 exhaust tips. Unfortunately I wasn't able to do much before and after testing to figure out if these things really do gain a small amount of horsepower or not.

What I will say is that they improved the sound my car makes, subjectively speaking. On the stock tips, the catless headers and PSE made a very loud and harshly high-pitched scream. The DREAM2 tips have taken the edge off the harshness somewhat, the volume is still all there but the pitch is a bit lower, more racecar-y, and ever so slightly less ear splitting. I even think it has reduced the drone inside the cabin a bit. It was also a doddle for my mechanic to fit and lines up perfectly. It's a good product in my view. They only had silver tips in stock though, the look of which I don't like, so I painted them matte black with some 650C rated spray paint. It held up well on track.

So I took part in the Club Cup of the local Porsche club. It's a time attack format, 3 practice sessions and 4 timed sessions of 15 minutes each. I was on old (2013/2014 manufactured) Cup 2's, the tire of choice for basically everyone in the competition. They seemed to do OK in the morning when it was cold and gray, but when the sun came out later and the track temp increased they lost a lot of grip. I topped all three practice runs and the first timed session, for the final three runs the guy who had run me very close in the other sessions suddenly started going a lot quicker as the temperatures went up. I ended up .8s behind him but .1 in front of a 718 BS in third. All these guys have had dozens of days on this track whereas it was the first time for me on proper tires, so I'm going to order a new set and try to win the next one.

More interesting to you guys, probably, is the speed trap data. It was taken before the final corner after a long-ish straight, and I can directly compare my speed to those reached by a stock-ish 981 CS which had at least an exhaust, a 981 GT4 and the 718 BS. The speeds varied a bit session to session though, and if you braked later you obviously got a slightly bigger number too.

My modded GTS: 193.9 km/h (120.4 MPH) - I did later in the day improve my speeds a bit as I was still learning, seeing a high of 195+ km/h (121+ MPH)
Stock-ish 981CS: 189.8 km/h (117.9 MPH)
Stock 981 GT4 : 196.4 km/h (122 MPH)
Stock 718 BS : 197.4 km/h (122.6 MPH)

As a 981 GTS is only marginally faster than a CS in a straight line, being about 3 MPH ahead of the CS and 1-1.5 MPH behind the GT4 seems to me like a good result and in line with earlier estimations of about 365 crank horsepower. I was happy to confirm that the protune holds up as well on track as on the road, even if though was tuned back when ambient was 5 below 0 Celcius.

Here's the fastest lap I did, at the very end of the day. The GoPro sound does not do the actual aural experience any justice, sadly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HdFkvFaZHc
 
#32 ·
Re: Empirical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world test

Nice lap JC. Great time on your car compared to the others. I think the GT4 is mostly faster from its 50% stiffer springs, larger tires, and better suspension. With the tune, you have as much or more peak torque and only a little less top end horsepower. PDK then pretty much levels the playing field. Car sounds awesome. The downshifts are the bomb. Enjoy!
 
#33 ·
Re: Empirical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world test

Nice lap JC. Great time on your car compared to the others. I think the GT4 is mostly faster from its 50% stiffer springs, larger tires, and better suspension. With the tune, you have as much or more peak torque and only a little less top end horsepower. PDK then pretty much levels the playing field. Car sounds awesome. The downshifts are the bomb. Enjoy!
Thanks!

The alignment really helped too, though I still want more camber. It maxed out at -1.5 front and -2.05 rear. Thinking to try and order some powerflex adjustable bushings to get a little more in the front without breaking the bank. Car was still pretty loose but I'm inclined to blame the very old (2013) rear tires. The fronts were a year younger and probably fewer heat cycles.

Ordered 245/35 and 285/35 Cup 2's, looking forward to see how much of a difference they make.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Re: Empirical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world test

Yes, as tires wear down and get heat cycled out, it seems to affect the rear a little more than the front, and makes the car loose. This is the time to practice tossing the car around to get a feel for the balance. Yew you have less grip and are going a little slower, but you can generate higher slip angles a little more safely. Sort of like driving in the rain, except obviously it is dry. And of course, the PCA instructors always say driving in the wet is the best way to learn your car's handling limits.

With the old tires your lap times will suffer a bit, but you will be having a blast sliding around. So, who cares for a weekend or two, just have some fun and learn the dynamics of your car. Then you get to upgrade to a set of brand new sticky rubber for which you are better equipped to handle the suddenly increased performance level of the car. Then you get even faster cause you are not as afraid of what may happen when you per say get a little sideways at 80 mph in a fast corner. You already just did it at 70 mph and smoothly recovered into a nice throttle steering maximum slip angle finish to the corner. Instead of catching it and conservatively shutting down the slide, you take advantage of the extra rotation and now ride it out to the rumble strip at full throttle faster than you ever had before.

Good luck with your new tires JC. I am sure will be pleased with the upgrade.
 
#37 ·
Re: Empirical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world test

I like a graph as much as the next guy, but they're not always the clearest visual representation of what's going on. Here is a side-by-side video (well, horizontally stacked actually) of stock vs stage 2 3rd and 4th to redline. They were done on the same highway, and the same direction, just in a different year.



You might also notice that the shifts are different. But both are in sport+. Since the FS protune, my PDK is no longer doing the torque boost in sport+ for high RPM shifts. If I shift at 4K or so then it does give me the torque boost shift. When I asked Fabspeed's tuner he only said that he doesn't (and cannot) touch the PDK code.

Truth be told, I never liked the torque boost shifts because they make the shifts sound slow and slushbox-y to me. I prefer the crisp normal/sport shifts with a little bang on upshifts, but I like the slightly reduced PSM nanny-ing so it's a win-win. But it is peculiar because it appears that the computers are deciding NOT to do the torque boost like they should, but aren't complaining about anything in terms of fault codes. Because the torque boost DOES work if I shift at low revs clearly it knows what it's supposed to do, it just doesn't want to do it for some reason nearer to redline. I know the ECU is doing torque calculations all the time and maybe something is outside an operating window somewhere. A bit of a mystery.
 
#38 ·
Re: Empirical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world test

I like a graph as much as the next guy, but they're not always the clearest visual representation of what's going on. Here is a side-by-side video (well, horizontally stacked actually) of stock vs stage 2 3rd and 4th to redline. They were done on the same highway, and the same direction, just in a different year.



You might also notice that the shifts are different. But both are in sport+. Since the FS protune, my PDK is no longer doing the torque boost in sport+ for high RPM shifts. If I shift at 4K or so then it does give me the torque boost shift. When I asked Fabspeed's tuner he only said that he doesn't (and cannot) touch the PDK code.

Truth be told, I never liked the torque boost shifts because they make the shifts sound slow and slushbox-y to me. I prefer the crisp normal/sport shifts with a little bang on upshifts, but I like the slightly reduced PSM nanny-ing so it's a win-win. But it is peculiar because it appears that the computers are deciding NOT to do the torque boost like they should, but aren't complaining about anything in terms of fault codes. Because the torque boost DOES work if I shift at low revs clearly it knows what it's supposed to do, it just doesn't want to do it for some reason nearer to redline. I know the ECU is doing torque calculations all the time and maybe something is outside an operating window somewhere. A bit of a mystery.
Nice vid, thanks for posting. Question though.
My car is MT not PDK, so I'm curious to know what this means:
"my PDK
Image
is no longer doing the torque boost in sport+ for high RPM shifts."
<= What is the "torque boost" on PDK?
 
#39 ·
Re: Empirical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world test

The "torque boost" shifts are in Sport+ normally, basically it shoves you in the back during the shift. Not the most comfortable setting but I guess it gains a few hundredths of a sec here and there.
 
#40 ·
Re: Empirical data fest - Cobb AP, Fabspeed race headers, FS protune real world test

The "torque boost" shifts are in Sport+ normally, basically it shoves you in the back during the shift. Not the most comfortable setting but I guess it gains a few hundredths of a sec here and there.
Ohh, OK, I know what you mean.. The 991.1 GT3 did that as well, but Porsche have taken that "feature" out of the transmission programming in the 992.1 GT3. I guess they too thought it was not the best thing.