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Photo of New Mid-Engine Porsche for 2013

26K views 63 replies 30 participants last post by  DaveC 
#1 · (Edited)


According to the weekly AutoBild publication ,which hit newsstands today, Porsche is planning to introduce a new mid-engine model in four years.[/SIZE] (Beware, since four years is the time frame for developing a new model from scratch, this could also be a "trial balloon", but I tend to doubt it, given the realities of the auto market in light of the economic situation). View link to picture of cover ➔ http://download.autobild.de/dl/553217/AuBi09_13_003-003_Inhalt_og.pdf

As you can see, the style looks a bit closer to the 911 than the Cayman. The editors are referring to it as a Volks-Porsche Sensation. This should be interpreted not to be so much a reference to the Volkswagen brand itself but rather to the notion that this is to be a genuine entry-level Porsche for the masses. The entry price of €35K should be understood in the context of published entry prices in the German market for the Cayman (€50K) or Cayman S with PDK (€65K). I haven't checked out the magazine yet, but in the weeks ahead the Internet ought to feature additional photos, including the rear views. Stay tuned.

by Sex_Zylinder
 
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#3 ·
Viewing this drawing from a design perspective, I actually prefer the looks of this one to that of Cayman, Carrera, Artega, or Aston Martin. It seems to incorporate the best styling cues from these models into a new super style. Nevertheless, the Porsche look remains unmistakable. Borrowing styling cues from a supercar and putting them into a lower price model has been done with Mercedes in the case of the second and third generation SLK as well as the new Alfa MiTo (MilanoTorino, not on sale in the US), which is in the Mini league. Good exterior styling can always justify a price premium.

Note that the door (certainly the same size, for reference, as that of the Cayman, Boxster and Carrera) borders on the rear air scoop. This means the car ought to be under four meters long and likely weigh no more than a Mini Cooper.

This could truly turn out to be a sensation. Porsche will certainly not want to marginalize its brand due to changed market conditions. They will have to lure new buyers into the Porsche experience. Imagine the handling on twisty roads with this kind of lightweight car! The same arguments that people have been repeatedly making on this board in favor of a Cayman versus a Corvette in terms of road feel will be equally valid with this new "Volks-Porsche" versus the current crop of Cayman cars.

Four years is a long time to come up with a new engine. Already Audi has a 2 liter version producing 200KW (272HP) on the market, so even if the new Porsche engine were to be merely a four-cylinder version (at least it ought to be a flat boxer engine, with low center of gravity in the car), it would pack plenty of power. One could sell this package as Porsche going back to its roots, especially if the car is assembled in Graz, Austria. (Who knows, by then Porsche may have bought Magna-Steyr.)

Sex_Zylinder
 
#15 · (Edited)
More Details of New Mid-Engine Baby Porsche from AutoBild Magazine

In the meantime I've been to the store and have had a chance to check out the article behind the cover story about that new mid-engine Porsche, which is being described as either a "Baby Porsche" or a reincarnated "356". The term "Volks-Porsche" only appears on the cover as an attention grabber. What was presented is indeed very encouraging news for many, though I can imagine that who are obsessive about Porsche exclusivity may not like it so much.

At the Geneva Motor Show earlier this month, plans for this developmental project were not being denied, but details purportedly still remain strictly secret -- at least until yesterday, though no doubt this scoop was coordinated with Porsche.

While earlier considerations for a lower priced Porsche with front wheel drive have been given the thumbs down (and won't be happening), the new Baby Porsche model will indeed proceed. In light of increasingly negative public associations with the Cayenne, Panamara, and other high-end Porsches in the current economic depression (i.e. environmentally wasteful cars and greedy people driving them -- for instance, in some neighborhoods in Berlin Porsches and other high end cars now get torched, hundreds in the past year already), introducing a more affordable low-end Porsche is now being viewed as a positive development from a marketing perspective.

The new Porsche will not replace the Cayman but will be a distinctly new vehicle, based on Volkswagen's new roadster platform. The current Auto Motor und Sport Magazine features drawing of four previously unreleased versions of these roadsters: the Audi (which looks hot, unlike previous drawings I've seen), the Volkswagen, a Czech Skoda, and a Spanish SEAT. The Audi is due to start production toward the end of 2012 and the new Porsche could theoretically also be ready by 2012. But since the new Cayman cars are due that year, a release of the new Porsche model in 2013 makes more sense.

The horsepower range being envisioned would not be less than 280, yet also not more than 300. Whereas Porsche will continue to insist on a horsepower gap between low end Carrera and Cayman brands, this strict differentiation will not be the case between Cayman and Baby Porsche. Indeed, overlap is practically guaranteed because the next entry level Cayman is supposed to come with a four cylinder engine. (This will inevitably "degrade" the overall mystique of the Cayman versus Carrera somewhat, though Cayman connoisseurs will know that the high-end Cayman is at least as good as the low end Carrera, at least for now.)

There are no sketches or photos of how the rear end of this new Porsche might look like. Developing this will probably take more time. Theoretically, at least, this leaves open the possibility of a fixed rear window with trunk. Though there's also the drawing of a Porsche Spyder, at this point it isn't certain whether this will be built. At least this smaller pictures (see below) provides a hint of what kind of rear light design is being put out as a possibility.

Now that it's clear that the new Baby Porsche will have a highly efficient and powerful four-cylinder turbo engine, it would at least make sense for such an engine to a boxer engine rather than an inline engine, not just for reasons of nostalgia and marketing (re-establishing the link back to the 356), but simply because it runs more smoothly. The article didn't really preclude this as a possibility.

As I had suspected, the new mid engine Baby Porsche (maybe they ought to give it the name "Butzi") will not exceed four meters, nor is it supposed to weigh more than 1200 kg (2645 lbs.). The frame won't be of aluminum but high tensile steel. Still, this necessarily means, as I had already suggested anyway, that the upcoming Baby Porsche will easily outperform the first generation Cayman S in overall handling and raw acceleration. (The price Porsche enthusiast pay for enjoying immediate gratification is thus ensured relative obsolescence just a few years down the road.)

From the PDF photo at the AutoBild link one can clearly see that the entire front top portion (hood and top fenders) is made of one piece. I think this is a very smart design, because this kind of incorporation makes the front side fender steel parts unnecessary. Since stamping these parts in a huge press require seven or eight intermediate mated die pairs before the final form is shaped, doing away with all these measures saves a considerable amout in design and manufacturing costs. Inasmuch as the surface skin connecting the bottom front of the door with the rear of the front wheel well isn't made of plastic, such a relatively flat metal piece would be rather easy to stamp.

Sex_Zylinder

 
#16 ·
photo shop fantasy image. It will not look that good. The car would swipe sales from the boxster/cayman group unless they move the B/CS up market.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Some Responses to Comments about the Future "Baby-Porsche"



This image has a high level of detail and is more than a basic artist's rendering with oversized wheels and barely any rubber. You can tell that considerable effort and refinement went into producing this image, which is spread over two pages inside the magazine. The AutoBild article about this Baby Porsche conveyed the distinct impression that Porsche has committed to following through with this project, although the Spyder version is still up in the air.

No doubt this car will swipe some sales from the future Cayman, but that's a secondary issue. Years ago market realities made it necessary for both BMW and Mercedes-Benz to introduce smaller models, most of which aren't available in the US. This new project is obviously about Porsche aggressively repositioning itself in the future automobile marketplace, with the intent of becoming even more profitable.
:cool:

The Cayman / Boxster lines can easily become "upmarket" versus the new Baby Porsche not just through a higher price, nicer leather, better sound system, special colors, different advertisement targeting, but most importantly through the incorporation of aluminum for its frame. Also, the Cayman will have more luggage space, which is also an important consideration. Furthermore, sponsoring a racing version of the Cayman would also help set it apart from the Baby Porsche.

Even though the Baby Porsche would be a better deal than the Cayman from purely performance considerations, the Porsche vehicle market tends to attract plenty of status seekers who would simply consider the Baby Porsche to be "beneath" them.

The long term goal Volkswagen (including its subsidiary companies) had set for itself a while back was to beat Toyota and eventually become the top vehicle group in the world. With the Baby Porsche as an anchor, many of the proposed cars to be built on the same platform will have elevated status because of their similarity to the Porsche version, so this platform will increase sales and profits across the board, versus its competitors, especially Mazda's MX-5. I think the release of new information a few days ago, showing the four roadster versions built on the same platform as the Baby Porsche, must have been partly to counteract the impact of the release of the new BMW Z4 (with retractable hardtop) and a possible introduction in a few years of a smaller softtop version. Seeing that Audi on the cover, plenty of people may hold off on wanting to get a BMW, for instance.

auto motor und sport - Heft 08/2009 | auto motor und sport

The 35k Euro guideline for the German market is indeed significant. (Presumably this is meant to include the 19% tax.) As I already mentioned, this is much less than the prices for the Cayman models. It is also significantly less than the entry level price of a BMW 135i (€40k) or a Mercedes-Benz SLK 300 (€42k), to name two cars whose potential buyers may consider stepping down from six to four cylinders in order to buy the much more sporty Porsche for less.

The maint point is that Porsche has evidently decided to take on BMW and Daimler in the lower price range and will be able to use its leverage to take away market share from these competitors because they won't be able to build their cars at the lower costs that Porsche can.
:taunt:


I'd like to know how the terminology "09 face lift" differs from the terminology "2012 new cayman".
Generally, a "face lift" entails different front and rear light designs, different bumper contours, and a few minor technical enhancements, but no differences in the shape of the sheet metal or windows. A new model entails new dimensions (almost always slightly longer) and thus a completely new exterior shape. For added punch, an engine debut makes the new package complete. Regarding the upper performance ceiling of the future Cayman S, that will be determined by the entry level Carrera models, due in roughly two years.
;)


Escalation across the board means that "entry level" might well be close to $100k by then.
There's no telling how bad the projected dollar hyperinflation will have gotten in four years. A better reference will likely be Euros. Perhaps by then the entry level price in US dollars, of the Baby Porsche, will lie somewhere between $35 million and $35 billion?! If you pay cash you may need to bring a van or hitch along a trailer to carry the money.
:eek:

Sex_Zylinder
 
#17 ·
Any chance that this is the new Cayman? The Cayman IS the 'baby' Porsche IMO and there is a good chance that engines will be smaller for all models in the future as they increase power with more efficiency. The descriptions would fit for a "all new" Cayman in 2013. Only the price seems a little low. Just seems more likely to me.

I think this Volks-Porsche combo is just hype. They didn't "join" forces. Porsche bought them out and I think it bordered on a hostile takeover. I don't think their identity's are gonna merge anytime soon.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Any chance that this is the new Cayman? The Cayman IS the 'baby' Porsche IMO and there is a good chance that engines will be smaller for all models in the future as they increase power with more efficiency. The descriptions would fit for a "all new" Cayman in 2013. Only the price seems a little low. Just seems more likely to me..
When they say a new Cayman for 2012... (since I'm new to Porsche factory speak) what does that mean? I know on the 911 it has meant very little over the last 40 years :taunt:

I'd like to know how the terminology "09 face lift" differs from the terminology "2012 new cayman". Is a face lift when they change less than 10% of a Porsche? :) And a "new car" when they change more than 20% of the existing car? ;)

Or do changes every 3 years, get called "face lift" vs. the changes every 6 years which get called "new models" regardless of how much of the car actually gets changed?

As for the photo in this thread....I'd guess that the 2013 VW/AUDI/Porsche is a new model separate from the Cayman.... because Porsche needs a new "baby Porsche" because the Cayman is going to get more expensive. By 2012 we will see the Cayman S break the $100k price point with options. Porsche needs a new entry level car because after 6 years of the Cayman climbing in price...it won't be entry level anymore.
 
#22 ·
Possible new Porsche

"I'll never happen. Porsche has absolutely no reason to add an affordable model to their lineup. If they really want to make a mid-engined affordable sports car they will release it under their VW or Audi brand. No reason to release it under the Porsche marque."

The european politics, fuel milage and financial punishment dictate that Porsche will have to lower its overall fuel milage.

I'm wondering if the Boxster will move downhill and the Cayman continue its upward climb.

mike
 
#23 ·
Re: Possible new Porsche

"I'll never happen. Porsche has absolutely no reason to add an affordable model to their lineup. If they really want to make a mid-engined affordable sports car they will release it under their VW or Audi brand. No reason to release it under the Porsche marque."

The european politics, fuel milage and financial punishment dictate that Porsche will have to lower its overall fuel milage.

I'm wondering if the Boxster will move downhill and the Cayman continue its upward climb.

mike
I also think this is a more likely scenario. The only problem is that they won't use VW's profits to keep Porsche alive if sales were bad. If Porsche started to struggle they may be forced to build more affordable models.
 
#24 ·
Porsche to revive 356 Speedster in 2013?

New speculation has emerged about a long rumored entry-level Porsche which could go into production by 2013.

Reports indicate the model would be called the 356 Speedster and it will feature an extremely lightweight two-seater design as well as a mid-engine setup. Based on a production version of Volkswagen's Blue Sport Concept, the 356 Speedster would only weigh about 760 kg (1675 lbs) thanks to the use of lightweight materials such as aluminum and possibly even magnesium.

While it's impossible to know exactly what engine would provide motivation for the new model, the leading contender appears to be Audi's 2.0-liter TFSI. Considering that the current Boxster uses a 2.9-liter six-cylinder engine that produces 255 hp and 214 lb-ft of torque, the 2.0 TFSI would allow the 356 Speedster to slot slightly below the Boxster in terms of performance as it only produces 211 hp and 258 lb-ft of torque. Another possible engine choice is the 1.4-liter four-cylinder engine from the Volkswagen Scirocco which cranks out a modest 160 hp, but that seems a little weak for Porsche's premium status.

According to the Autozeitung, Porsche sees the new 356 Speedster as a critical step towards meeting more stringent fuel economy and greenhouse gas emission regulations. Speculated to cost less than €40,000 (in Germany), the model would also help the company attract more budget conscious consumers in a similar fashion that the Boxster did over a decade ago.
 
#28 ·
New Mid-Engine Baby Porsche to Match or Exceed Current Cayman S Power-to-Weight Ratio

New speculation has emerged about a long rumored entry-level Porsche which could go into production by 2013.

Reports indicate the model would be called the 356 Speedster and it will feature an extremely lightweight two-seater design as well as a mid-engine setup. Based on a production version of Volkswagen's Blue Sport Concept, the 356 Speedster would only weigh about 760 kg (1675 lbs) thanks to the use of lightweight materials such as aluminum and possibly even magnesium.
This is a recent re-hash of a speculation story that first emerged half a year ago and has since then been effectively superseded by the most recent AutoBild report, last Friday, which no longer had the speculative tenor of earlier reports about what Porsche could or might do in the future. Though a 760 kg Speedster might be possible using only lightweight materials, it would be too expensive to produce for the targeted sales price of 40k Euros in Germany (unless this price didn't include the 19% VAT).

Porsche needs to remain profitable, and a less expensive two-seater entry level car is the perfect means to achieve this. In light of the current economic depression, the Panamera project could turn out to be a huge financial flop because many of the targeted consumers during the time of their market studies, for instance in the Persian Gulf region, Russia, and China, aside from California, will not necessarily be as receptive. Porsche also just finalized protracted negotiations with numerous banks to get a loan of more than 10 billion Euros in order to be able to exercise the options that will ultimately allow them to control more than 75% of Volkswagen. Perhaps some banks were putting pressure on them to come up with a viable long term plan for profitability?

Since Audi and VW produce primarily front-wheel drive vehicles, they lack a certain degree of tradition, in the rear-wheel drive two-seater sports car arena, unlike Mercedes or BMW. Linking the mid-engine platform of these cars to a new Baby Porsche instantly enhances the appeal of these less expensive versions, which translates to increased sales across the board. Just as nowadays many European consumers buy a Czech Skoda because they know they're essentially getting VW technology for less, many consumers in the future would be swayed to prefer one of these versions over, say, a Mazda MX-5, because of the affinity with Porsche, which of course can be finely tweaked through advertising and public relations with the motoring press.

I'm sure Porsche developers would also be experimenting with a 750 kg "Speedster", but perhaps the proper name to introduce such a specimen under would be the Lamborghini badge.
:drivingskid:


The VW/Audi 2TFSI engine already produces 188kw in the Audi S3, meaning such a car only has to weigh 1100kg to have the same power to weight (performance) as the 09 CayS with PDK.
2013 is certainly not "just around the corner", but already one can buy the Audi TTS with its 2.0 TFSI engine, which produces 200 kW (272 hp) at 6000 rpm and 350 Nm of torque. The new Cayman S, which weighs 1350 kg without the 25kg PDK, produces 235 kW (320 hp) at 7200 rpm and 370 Nm. The Baby Porsche would definitely get more horsepower than the Audi version (R3). The published 1200 kg weight target is easily achieved without resorting to aluminum in the frame or exterior because the Baby Porsche should be just under 4 meters long (like the Artega), whereas the Cayman is 4.347 meters long.

Thus, using the current Audi TTS engine, the power-to-weigh ratio of the Baby Porsche would be 0.1667 W/kg or (inversely) 6.00 kg/W. By comparison the Cayman S with PDK has a ratio of 0.1709 or 5.85 kg/W. While the "naked" Cayman S (without PDK) has slightly better ratios, this comparison is with a putative R3 variant, not with the expected Baby Porsche, where horsepower is to be higher. Furthermore, when comparing torque output, the putative R3 is significantly better. To match the power-to-weigh ratio of the "naked" Cayman S the new Baby Porsche would need to have just a bit under 285 horsepower, and the very minimum expected value of 280 horsepower for the Baby Porsche, per AutoBild article, would already allow it to slightly exceed the power-to-weight ratio of the current Cayman S with PDK.
:dance:

This is a sensation that many other people will be looking forward to being able to enjoy in a lighter car, certainly no later than by the time of the 2013 Frankfurt Auto Show (which happens every two years). That's still a very long wait.
:(

Sex_Zylinder
 
#26 · (Edited)
Is anyone getting the impression of a little bit of early April Fool's? A small two-seater coupe/cabrio, who's difference with the current 987 is.... Nothing but price? And this makes business sence because...?

When the Cayman was anounced as "being in development" around 03-04 there was rampant speculation that it'd be cheaper than the Boxster because of its fixed roof. I distinctly recall reading a Porsche release that said, in very flowery talk, that a car cheaper than a Boxster would mean a much larger share of market, meaning the brand would lose much exclusivity, would have to get new factories, and risk losing brand imaging on their more expensive cars for what would debateably be not much more profit than they'd get with more expensive Caymans.

I'm sorry, but given the CS is currently one of the most fantastic and brilliant cars around, I'm reluctant to think a cheaper version is "just around the corner" which will be HALF A TON LIGHTER, due to some mysterious new shell/alloy/technology. Come on people, the Lotus 2-eleven weighs 745kg, how likely do you think a 760kg car is? Automotive technology doesn't improve in 70% increments.

Does anyone really think Porsche is in the need to jump on some VAG band-wagon and have a golf-style "it's the same as the Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda one just with Porsche on the front and different switchgear" car? And undercut the Boxster for a significant amount of money? Where does that leave the Boxster, one of it's historically most important sellers? "It's like the new (whateveritscalled) but half a ton heavier, 3 inches longer, and 20.000$ more"

How often in the past has Porsche used a magazine to showcase its new car? Or given exclusivity to any one magazine? I may be wrong on this specific question, but it strikes me as decidedly unlike their usual modus operandi.
 
#27 ·
Re: New Mid-Engine Porsche for 2013

The VW/Audi 2TFSI engine already produces 188kw in the Audi S3, meaning such a car only has to weigh 1100kg to have the same power to weight (performance) as the 09 CayS with PDK.

Porsche probably needs the emission credits from more efficient (smaller) powerplants to avoid heavy future taxes/fines and another reason why they are pushing PDK so hard (lower emissions)
 
#29 ·
As far as any plans Porsche may have for the future I follow a simple principle. If the motive for the project is profitability and/or compliance w/ regulations the information may be credible. If the motivation for the project is to please a small group of enthusiasts who frequent internet forums, the credibility is dubious at best. ;)
 
#33 · (Edited)
UPDATE: AutoBild Article of Baby Porsche and Photos Now Online

The article I've been referring to is now online (in German):

It starts off with a slide show, including a top view of a possible entry-level Speedster:



Vorschau Einsteigermodell von Porsche - Der Baby-Porsche kommt aus Wolfsburg - Erlkönige - autobild.de

Here is a nicer picture of the car many of the readers will be most interested in:



Vorschau Einsteigermodell von Porsche - Der Baby-Porsche kommt aus Wolfsburg - Erlkönige - autobild.de


Sex_Zylinder
 
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