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Preventing Oil System Related Engine Failures

30K views 138 replies 44 participants last post by  Mr_Brown 
#1 · (Edited)
I started to post this as a reply in the "Causes of M97.21 Engine Failure?" thread, but that thread is pretty long in the tooth, and is (was?) really focused on discussing the causes of engine failures. There is information about various modifications sprinkled through it, but I thought it would be useful to assemble people's experience with different solutions in one place. So...

For new readers on this topic: the issue is lubrication related engine failures in Cayman/Boxter gen 1 engines, brought on by high lateral g conditions. This usually (but not always) means a modified car (suspension, sticky tires) on a track, and is particularly problematic with sustained high g left hand turns. The "Long Version" is available at the thread referenced above. Causes of M97.21 Engine Failure?

I'm getting ready to move to R compound tires, and I think it would be naive to do so without trying to make the engine more reliable under high g conditions. The question is, what modification to make???

I'm taking a pragmatic approach to the problem: I don't need to solve the design issue (though it might be an interesting exercise). Rather my goal is to solve my immediate problem: this engine model seems to have an history of failure under conditions to which I may very well subject the car. So my goal it to find the best way to reduce the risk of engine failure, and I really only care about effectiveness and cost. I think most members are probably of the same mindset.

Of course, understanding the underlying problem would help significantly in assessing modifications. This is my frustration with Porsche, since they are by far in the best position to provide meaningful data about the failure mechanism. I don't mind spending some money to upgrade the reliability of the car for track use, but some guidance on effective modifications would be nice. Alas, Porsche has made their position clear and we get no help.

So it seems there are a few known options out there people have tried:

Accusump

As far as I can tell, this is a remote accumulator that will theoretically help maintain pressure in the oil pump discharge line. If properly configured, it should probably be able to cover for brief periods when the oil pump is not maintaining pressure (perhaps due to no oil at the pickup, or highly aerated oil at the pickup). I would need to work through a diagram of the oil system and how the accusump connects to be sure.

  • Probably $1500-$2000 depending on the installation
  • Straightforward install but need to find a location for the canister

TTP Oilsafe

Auxiliary scavenging pump that appears to draw oil from the front of the right side cylinder head and return it to the sump. Theory seems to be that oil accumulates here, particularly during left hand turns, and the stock scavenge pickup is not effective in removing it (because it's too far to the rear? doesn't have sufficient capacity?). Again, it would help to better understand the oiling system to assess this approach. Some people have reported great success with this system, including people who race the cars in Europe. Also I believe Porsche has offered a similar modification kit for some engines in the past.

  • Very Expensive: probably $3000+ to install
  • Porsche will immediately void your warranty if this is installed (which is a risk anyway if the car is tracked)

Deep Sump / Windage Tray

I'll put these together since the setup I think looks most likely to be effective is the Mantis extended sump / windage tray combo. Seems like it should help in two flow directions since the tray is mostly closed: (1) oil below the tray (and at the oil pickup) should be less aerated since the heavier, better flowing liquid will drain down through the tray and baffle trap doors more readily than froth, and (2) the limited open area should act to dampen the lateral shifting of oil in transient high g turns. [In a sustained skid pad session eventually the oil would reach an equilibrium angle in the sump and it would not help, but in typical road course transients it seems it should slow the migration of oil side to side. I do wonder whether any science or testing went into the area and location of the holes in the windage tray, or if they just guessed...]

This probably only delays the onset of the problem, but may be sufficient for typical road course transient conditions. Seems it should help at any rate. Wish I had a good way to test it....

  • Simple install; probably a 2 hour job
  • Relatively low cost (<$1000)

Has anyone tried other modifications with any success?

What about people's experience (success/failure) with these?

Cheers,
Walter
 
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#4 ·
Casey I am looking into some improvement for the oiling problem in Gen 1 cars. I hope TPC has something in the next two months. Please send me a PM if you come out with something.

Maybe I will get really excited and add the first Cayman S turbo in Puerto Rico

Thanks
 
#54 ·
Casey:

I'm very interested in this. I have some of the other fixes but I don't trust the extended sump to do the job. Since you have a new installer/partner near Madison, WI, this will likely be the first business I'll do with them. In the mean time, I'm limiting my track time and getting the rest of the car (seating, alignment, safety stuff etc) just right.

A lot of people are running their Gen 1 cars out there who should have this kit right now. I know good things take time, but this is a very important, maybe the most important mod for many of us.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I am not sure we need yet another thread on this, but..

One important modification is the retrofit of an older 996 oil separator / defoamer / swirl pot (many names) in place of the 997 part installed. This modification should help remove the air that is trapped in the oil (foam) as the oil returns from the heads. Note: this is not the same as the AOS fix descibed elsewhere.

The part in the orginal PET catalog is a 996 part (996 107 080 54) and looks just like the part in the drawing. The as built though is a 997 part (on the left) that looks much different. The more recent PET shows the 997 part.

If these pots are installed in conjuntion with the Mantis windage tray (5 more minutes to the job) then the tray must be modfied to allow the pots to pass through. Not a big deal.

See photo:



Here is the "as built" sump (courtesy K-Man S):



And here is an photo of how the car was specficed in the original PET (Boxster engine shown courtesy Pelican Parts):



Also, if you actually want to fix the problem, and not just band aid in a solution then you need to modify the crank and rods:



My car has raced for over a year with the above modifications, but without an accusump or TPP kit without isssue. YMMV.

Cheers,
 
#96 ·
Not to conjure up any oil debates, but I was wondering if anyone has tried this oil sump baffle from pelican. And if Krokodil can comment on adding 996 swirl pots and this baffle. Thanks

This is designed to fit all Boxster/996/997 M96/97 type engines. It expands on the factory X51 design and features all stainless construction with metal doors that will not distort or deteriorate over time. This helps to ensure that more oil stays around the main oil pickup at all times. This kit includes the baffle, 3x 6mm bolts to attach the baffle to the existing oil pan, blue Loctite for the 3x bolts and Loctite 5900 to seal the pan to the engine case.​

997-107-243-EBSR-K
Oil Sump Baffle for M96/97 Engines, 996, 997 (2005-08), Boxster (1997-2008), Cayman (2006-08) (Excludes Turbocharged Models & GT3) [More Info]
 
#14 ·
Pelican Parts says $35 each, but I think Suncoast sells them for less. Either way, not an expensive part. Your local dealer should also be able to source.

Easy to install when the sump cover is off (e.g., while doing a deep sump install).

Cheers,
 
#16 ·
This is definitely a couch tuning question as I do not even come close to understanding all these systems. But all engine failures seem to have occurred WITHOUT the oil pressure light coming on. Therefore, will the Accusump help at all? Will it discharge oil since there is no detectable oil pressure drop? Does the Accusump "measure" oil pressure differently than the oil pressure sensor?
 
#17 ·
This is definitely a couch tuning question as I do not even come close to understanding all these systems. But all engine failures seem to have occurred WITHOUT the oil pressure light coming on. Therefore, will the Accusump help at all? Will it discharge oil since there is no detectable oil pressure drop?
Does the Accusump "measure" oil pressure differently than the oil pressure sensor?
Tomasz;

I believe that the Accusumo does not have any meassuring device, it works by pressure differential, (is just a hydraulic accumulator)

For example if your engine normal operating oil pressure is @ 45 psi, this pressure fills the Accusump with oil (against an internal rubber bladder) @ 45 psi, and whenever the oil pressure drops below 45 psi the Accusump will push back the oil into the engine immediately by the pressurized rubber bladder.

The theory is really simple, the trick is to ensure that you have a proper installation (leak free) and to determine how do you want to trigger the signal to open the electric valve solenoid on the accusump, unless you want the accusump next to your seat (like a race car) with a manual operated valve...
.
 
#19 ·
"Well i am all over this thread to see what tpc will come up with .

I can't track the car anymore without solving this and ttp asked 1600e for the pumps and 900 for the extension pan without tax & shipping WoW

Soz i better go sailing .....

Comon TPC"

Wow! That is quite pricey TPC...
 
#23 ·
Re: Tomasz

I think MANY people here have been confused by "R". I am not installing Hoosiers on it any time soon. But I want to run RE-11s MOSTLY because they can take the abuse better than PS2s.

RE-11s - R or not-R compound as defined here???

T
 
#25 ·
Re: Tomasz

I think MANY people here have been confused by "R". I am not installing Hoosiers on it any time soon. But I want to run RE-11s MOSTLY because they can take the abuse better than PS2s.

RE-11s - R or not-R compound as defined here???

T
Depends how you define R compound. Some clubs have rules based on the treadwear number on the tires. R compounds are considered 140 or lower, or 100 or lower, or whatever your local club considers them to be. RE-11's are 180, I think, which is higher than the cutoff for R compounds.
 
#24 ·
Tomasz - the Re-11's are an R compound on a street tire. So I am not sure how you want to think of that one.....
 
#26 ·
Re: Tomasz

I am asking how we shoud define as it realtes to engine failures. Car and driver has shown MPSCs to have the same performance as PS2, just more consistent and last longer... one could assume then that MPSCs are safe to run or that PS2s are not...
 
#27 · (Edited)
Re: Tomasz

Pardon this response but things are getting silly.

I am struck by how we're clinging to the distinction between race, R, street tires -- as if it matters to suffering this type of engine failure. It's one way we can force a yes/no answer but it is entirely artificial and self-deluding.

The car doesn't know what tires it's wearing. Nor the engine. And when it comes to lateral G forces a good, smooth driver can pull higher Gs on street tires than a mediocre driver on stickies ...

I lost *something* in my engine - when it's torn down I'll know more. For now it's speculation that it was an oil starvation problem. A good bet, but still speculation.

I was on street tires in a long sweeping curve (a right-hander!) which reminded me (greatly) of a cloverleaf. If I suffered an oil starvation failure in that turn, I can do it on the street - depending on the temp and condition of my oil.

Oh - and my oil had < 2K highway miles on it. 5w40 - porsche approved.

Try and describe who will / won't get bit by this if you want, but it seriously misses the point and may well give a false sense of security. Porsche improved the oiling in the Gen 2 3.4 -- that's the solution.
 
#30 ·
Re: Tomasz

I lost *something* in my engine - when it's torn down I'll know more. For now it's speculation that it was an oil starvation problem. A good bet, but still speculation.

I was on street tires in a long sweeping curve (a right-hander!) which reminded me (greatly) of a cloverleaf. If I suffered an oil starvation failure in that turn, I can do it on the street - depending on the temp and condition of my oil.
I'm curious if you (or others who have had this problem) think oil starved blown engines are caused by a single catastrophic event, e.g. one high-g sweeper starving one of the bearings, or if you think a small amount of damage is caused every time you take a high-g sweeper, eventually leading to a blown engine.

I don't know if there is a way to tell the difference after the engine has blown. Perhaps when the engine is torn down they can tell. Prior to the David Hobbs "klablamo" event, is there an easy way to check the condition of your bearings to see if there is some wear? Oil analysis perhaps?
 
#28 ·
Re: Tomasz

"Try and describe who will / won't get bit by this if you want, but it seriously misses the point and may well give a false sense of security. Porsche improved the oiling in the Gen 2 3.4 -- that's the solution. "

OK, so what is the point? After your post my friend I started negotiaiting a deal on a Gen 2 Cayman and looking at the M3...

If your point is that the premise of "As long as I am using street rubber - I will be fine." is wrong, then I am starting to agree.
 
#29 ·
Re: Tomasz

My point, my friend, is the latter - and that we're kidding ourselves if we think we can so simply describe how this failure will occur.

Porsche knows. Their changes to the Gen 2 3.4 speak louder than all the speculation being thrown around here.

We don't want to admit that our gen 1 engines are insufficient against how we want to drive. it's called denial.

However my engine gets fixed, I'm looking @ $10K in upgrades (out of my pocket) to improve oiling and improve performance. It isn't acceptable to me that I drive 'walking on eggshells' so I'm building it stronger.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Tomasz

And never Loving her?

By Not tracking My Car shows my Loving kindness towards her .:taunt:
our relationship is one of bonding love and kindness towards each other .I would never subject her to such abuse as "TRACKING HER" and have all her oil spill about the pavement . Such abuse would be devastating .I call it TRUE LOVE my friend :)

I have not driven my car in 4 days now ,why? you know why its been raining here in Seattle for 4 days straight ,I will take public transit to avoid getting my Cayman dirty.:dance:
Now that my friend is how you treat a lady
 
#35 ·
Re: Tomasz

And never Loving her?

By Not tracking My Car shows my Loving kindness towards her .:taunt:
our relationship is one of bonding love and kindness towards each other .I would never subject her to such abuse as "TRACKING HER" and have all her oil spill about the pavement . Such abuse would be devastating .I call it TRUE LOVE my friend :)

I have not driven my car in 4 days now ,why? you know why its been raining here in Seattle for 4 days straight ,I will take public transit to avoid getting my Cayman dirty.:dance:
Now that my friend is how you treat a lady
Personally I've always gravitated towards women -- and cars -- that beg to be driven hard. My Cayman begs and I'm happy to oblige. :cheers:

But we digress.....:)
 
#36 ·
Re: Tomasz

I believe I said a long long time ago that oil starvation could happen on the street and with street tires if the conditions were right. I seem to recall I got jumped on and that people swore it was only with track tires, only on the track, etc. etc. Now a couple of years later there have been Gen 1 cars that have blown motors on street tires and/or on the street as opposed to the track.

We do need to all recognize that our Gen 1 cars have an engine oiling deficiency that if you plan to drive your car hard you may want to install items to help correct that problem. You might not want to and gamble that your car will be OK. This is a personal decision, no one person is right or wrong, everyone needs to decide for themselves as long as they are aware that the problem exists and that there are some solutions out there and more solutions coming.
 
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