Automotive Off TopicThis is the place for topics that are not Cayman specific but are automotive related in some way. This is not an anything goes forum, Keep it clean!
no it wasn't. that rumor has been beaten to death on multiple forums. It was a the result of badly translated interview with one of the nissan engineers. what the guy really said was "that to go any faster it would require cut-slicks" (or something to that effect)
Last edited by 'ringmeister; 01-18-2008 at 07:53 AM.
I don't think anyone here should get too exited about the performance of the Nissan. I don't think many people will cross-shop the Turbo and GT-R. I don't think many people will cross-shop the GT-R with any other Porsche for that matter. I can at least speak for myself when I say that when I bought my 2.7 no other brand was even on the radar.
Even if it's actually faster than the Turbo, that doesn't take anything away from the Porsche. The Turbo (and the entire 911 line) is actually a compromised design. A rear engine car with a flat six motor is not the fastest way to go around the track.
I think the Nissan looks good. It's not an elegant design but it has a very original style to it. It's almost like it belongs on a Mad Max film set.
You got to give it to Nissan though. They made one hell of a car for well under $100K.
I'm sure the folks in Zuffenhausen have not only noticed the performance of the GT-R but the price. They are probably waiting to see how the GT-R sells.
I think that it may be wishful thinking by filahebe to think that noone will cross shop the GT-R with any Porsche. There isn't an infinite number of people buying cars in the 70k plus price range. Even if the GT-R didn't out perform the 997 Turbo it is still very competitive for 60k less. Porsche will have to see if the GT-R will take part of the market share. This could be good for people who want to buy a Porsche. Porsche will have to become more competitive price wise or face losing part of their market.
If Nissan can build a car with that type of performance for just about half the price of a 997 Turbo (and less than a base Carrera or Carrera S) perhaps Porsche will be forced to lower prices.
It would be naive to think that price doesn't matter to most people (yes there are some who will buy a Porsche regardless of price). I've read endless threads on this site complaining, or at least commenting on the high cost of the cars and the options. I also see how eager everyone is to get group discounts for products for the Cayman and Cayman S.
Porsche will either keep up with the competition or eventually be part of automotive history like Hudson, Packard, Studebaker and a host of other companies. Yes it can happen . . . . look at the automotive giants here in the USA. Soon they will all be overtaken by foreign manufactures.
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I'll do anything for money except work. You have to draw the line somewhere.
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997tt is distinctly not designed for racing in track like Gt2/3.
No doubt gtr can beat tt on track.Actually,GT-r has about 550 hp on crank.It's more powerful than the TT.Imo,the biggest difference between these 2 cars is awd system.Nissan's Attest Awd system is far more better than Porsche's awd.
We can see that GT-R is almost as fast as tt in straight but faster in the corner due to the advanced awd system
... If Nissan can build a car with that type of performance for just about half the price of a 997 Turbo (and less than a base Carrera or Carrera S) perhaps Porsche will be forced to lower prices.
It would be naive to think that price doesn't matter to most people (yes there are some who will buy a Porsche regardless of price). I've read endless threads on this site complaining, or at least commenting on the high cost of the cars and the options.
I think your way off base here (just my opinion).
See the demographics in this study here. Appendix VI. That study was from 2001. Check out the incomes and types of personalities.
There is a huge difference between a buyer of a TT vs any Nissan. I seriously doubt any potential TT buyer would look twice at a Nissan (OK, not any but few ... never say never). The most obvious reason being, snooty as it might sound, because its not a Porsche.
As to price mattering, I also think your off base. The difference between a $65K CS and a $135K TT is huge (well double). The market demographics are totally different. People complaining about the high costs of Porsche options or seeking group buys ... do you really think a potential TT buyer cares much about the cost of some option he/she may want. OTH, if your barely scraping enough money up to get a stripped, Cayman, then say $3K for Nav is huge (in comparison).IMO, there will be very few potential GT3/TT/GT2 buyers will be interested in this car. There is no record of reliability. Remember that old saying associated with Porsche ... "To finish first, first you have to finish"? If you buy a GT3 for track time, are you going to risk buying a Nissan with no track record in reliability? .
997 and 997S potential buyers? I also doubt it will effect them. 911 is the Icon. Period. Buyer of theses cars will have been wanting one all their lives and no Japanese "sportscar" will likely sway them.
CS potential buyers? Yes maybe, for some. If their only interest is owning the fastest car on the block, competition for a Z06, then maybe ... but maybe not. If you read buyers threads here, others have decided to not buy a Z06 in lieu of a CS, regardless of the fact the Z06 is much faster. After all, your still buying a Chevy. Potential Cayman owners may still look at the Nissan the same way. No matter how you cut it, it's still a Nissan.
Sorry to disagree but I doubt it will have much of an impact on PAG but if it does, it will be most likely on the low end cars in their line.
I just can't see someone about to put an order in for a TT saying:
"Hey that Nissan is just as fast ... forget the TT, I'm buying a Nissan"
If I did that my wife would kill me! (and my first "sportscar" was 240Z)
See the demographics in this study here. Appendix VI. That study was from 2001. Check out the incomes and types of personalities.
There is a huge difference between a buyer of a TT vs any Nissan. I seriously doubt any potential TT buyer would look twice at a Nissan (OK, not any but few ... never say never). The most obvious reason being, snooty as it might sound, because its not a Porsche.
As to price mattering, I also think your off base. The difference between a $65K CS and a $135K TT is huge (well double). The market demographics are totally different. People complaining about the high costs of Porsche options or seeking group buys ... do you really think a potential TT buyer cares much about the cost of some option he/she may want. OTH, if your barely scraping enough money up to get a stripped, Cayman, then say $3K for Nav is huge (in comparison).IMO, there will be very few potential GT3/TT/GT2 buyers will be interested in this car. There is no record of reliability. Remember that old saying associated with Porsche ... "To finish first, first you have to finish"? If you buy a GT3 for track time, are you going to risk buying a Nissan with no track record in reliability? .
997 and 997S potential buyers? I also doubt it will effect them. 911 is the Icon. Period. Buyer of theses cars will have been wanting one all their lives and no Japanese "sportscar" will likely sway them.
CS potential buyers? Yes maybe, for some. If their only interest is owning the fastest car on the block, competition for a Z06, then maybe ... but maybe not. If you read buyers threads here, others have decided to not buy a Z06 in lieu of a CS, regardless of the fact the Z06 is much faster. After all, your still buying a Chevy. Potential Cayman owners may still look at the Nissan the same way. No matter how you cut it, it's still a Nissan.
Sorry to disagree but I doubt it will have much of an impact on PAG but if it does, it will be most likely on the low end cars in their line.
I just can't see someone about to put an order in for a TT saying:
"Hey that Nissan is just as fast ... forget the TT, I'm buying a Nissan"
If I did that my wife would kill me! (and my first "sportscar" was 240Z)
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear when I stated which Porsches MIGHT be effected. You are right that it won't be the high end cars. This is the Cayman Club so I was referring to the Cayman and Cayman S. We will never know how many sales are lost to Z06's, SLK 55 AMG's or the new GT-R.
Porsche is a car company not a non profit organization so any loss of market share has to concern them. Increased competition can only help lower prices and increase quality, performance, etc.
I decided on a Cayman S rather than a Z06 or a SLK 55 AMG, so did the members of CC or they would be on different web sites, not his one.
I've had my share of BMW's and Mercedes Benz (I bought my first Benz in 1966 when I lived in Germany). I passed up the other makes and have decided to purchase a Cayman S. You're preaching to the choir when you talk about quality and dependability. I agree with you.
I have NEVER owned a Japanese car, and I don't intend to buy one now
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I'll do anything for money except work. You have to draw the line somewhere.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear when I stated which Porsches MIGHT be effected. You are right that it won't be the high end cars. This is the Cayman Club so I was referring to the Cayman and Cayman S.
Ahh, since the video was about the TT vs GTR, I assumed (wrongly) that you were talking about bleeding sales off from the TT.
In that case, we may agree as I said:
CS potential buyers? Yes maybe, for some. If their only interest is owning the fastest car on the block, competition for a Z06, then maybe ... but maybe not. If you read buyers threads here, others have decided to not buy a Z06 in lieu of a CS, regardless of the fact the Z06 is much faster. After all, your still buying a Chevy. Potential Cayman owners may still look at the Nissan the same way. No matter how you cut it, it's still a Nissan.
Interesting that Nissan is targeting the TT yet I seriously doubt they will get many buyers in that market.
Interesting that Nissan is targeting the TT yet I seriously doubt they will get many buyers in that market.
When you're the fastest on the draw all of the new guys challenge you. They want to be the top gun. Porsche is the standard by which most sports cars are judged. Nissan wants to be as good as the TT (performance wise) at a much lower price to lure people in the 70K price range. I guess they figure that the GT-R will be seen as a "poor mans TT".
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I've spent 80% of all the money I ever made on fast cars and fast women. I wasted the other 20%!
The cut slicks they talk about = semi-slicks used in GT3 and GT2. The 997 turbo does not come with those tires in stock form and I'm not sure what tires were used on the 997tt for its 'ring times...
Originally Posted by caySman
sir, if you're referring to the:
7.38* 161.628 km/h Nissan R34 GTR, *company test driver Suzuki, slick cut tyres, track partially wet
that's for the R34, which is the really much inferior previous version of the car which is about 7 years old ... the new version is R35.
To the guy who said TT buyers wouldn't consider any Nissan...
For the record, I'm a potential TT buyer who would give the Nissan a shot.
Frankly anyone who didn't, I wouldn't really respect as much. You should at least take it for a drive before you judge it. If the ONLY reason you drive a car is for the brand on the hood, you should maybe take another look at your priorities in life.
If I drove any car tomorrow and it was better than my Cayman, I'd start thinking about the switch. I don't care if it was made by Nisssan or Kia or Mattel.
To the guy who said TT buyers wouldn't consider any Nissan...
For the record, I'm a potential TT buyer who would give the Nissan a shot.
Frankly anyone who didn't, I wouldn't really respect as much. You should at least take it for a drive before you judge it. If the ONLY reason you drive a car is for the brand on the hood, you should maybe take another look at your priorities in life.
If I drove any car tomorrow and it was better than my Cayman, I'd start thinking about the switch. I don't care if it was made by Nisssan or Kia or Mattel.
How I feel exactly. If the car is better (performance, braking, cornering, price, quality, etc...) then it certainly warrants a look.
I may just be guessing here, but if a new Skyline were better than a Cayman in every category I'm not sure many here could actually eek out that difference other than straight line performance. I don't think 99.9% of owners drive their car at 10/10ths or honestly even could on a track and especially not on the 'Ring. The Cayman is often rated the best handling sports car in the world, I'm doubtful that with all that weight that the new Skyline could match its handling or "feel" but certainly if you take a test drive and like something better then go ahead and switch.
K -Man S, the "feel" is that variable which will be very difficult for others to achieve. The CS has spoiled me and it will take a very special car for me to part with it - so far, it is not out there! But, if I was really looking to replace it, I would be judging the other cars on their characteristics, not just the emblem. I realize however that others will not consider anything other than a Porsche, and Porsche appreciates that greatly!
To the guy who said TT buyers wouldn't consider any Nissan...
For the record, I'm a potential TT buyer who would give the Nissan a shot.
That would be me and I wrote:
"I seriously doubt any potential TT buyer would look twice at a Nissan (OK, not any but few ... never say never). The most obvious reason being, snooty as it might sound, because its not a Porsche."
I wrote "few". Go read the demographics study I pointed to. I believe from those demographics that anyone who can afford a new TT or a new Nissan, the vast majority simply will not buy it because its not a Porsche. If your spending $140K for a car, then brand marketing means a lot.
It has nothing to do with which one is faster. At a certain point in life, some people no longer care that one car is .5 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile or 3 seconds faster around the Ring.
Those are not meaningful things that the average person can replicate compared to the professional driver nor be able to use on public highways. Those things mean very little.
OTH the prestige of owning a new TT vs a new Nissan. No contest. Yes, the brand on the hood does matter. It might not to you but it may to them. It's no different than saying a Timex may keep better time than a Rolex but the people with the money to buy the Rolex will buy the Rolex simply because of brand. If you don't think brand is important to companies, go figure out why trademarks, logos, etc are carefully guarded (as in Ford recently taking action to protect its logo on calendars). Brand is very important. Brand recognition is big time.
I said, never say never. I'm talking the majority of potential new TT buyers. At $140K for a car, your buying decisions are not necessarily driven by 0 - 60 numbers. There is far more to it than that. Emotion may be a much bigger part.
This is not to characterize potential TT owners as driven solely by brand because I believe there is far more to it than that. But I do believe brand is a very big part of the buying decision.
To clarify, look at the demographic study referenced.
2001 - buyers, personalities identified as elitists, people who view the car as a means to an end itself, etc. I really doubt they will buy a Nissan over a TT.
2001 interview with Porsche CEO
Average 911 buyer income $310K. That's 7 years ago and is not the average income of a TT buyer. What would be the average income of a new TT buyer today?
That is why I believe that to many, buying a new 997 Turbo is a means to an end itself, maybe accumulative wish to be gained sometime in life. A bunch of numbers around some race track that they will never see may mean nothing whatsover. The fact that this Nissan may be a bit faster ... means nothing in comparison to fulfilling their lifetime dream.
My point here is that look outside of the box from the perspective of someone about to fulfill this dream of a new top of the line Porsche 997 Turbo. After dropping down $140,000 at the dealer, do you really think the fact, for the majority of buyers, that a Nissan down the street is 5 seconds faster around the Ring is going to matter?
Given the demographics in that study, I doubt it. Emotion is involved here and it has nothing to do with some numbers achieved by Walter Roehl or whoever.
I have actually sat in a GT-R stationary (it is not yet homologated for street use here) and have gone through every inch. This car is actually the same price as the Cayman S in Singapore due to some creative tax declarations by Nissan importers.
This car does not compete against the 997 Turbo in Singapore. Not in the least. Instead, because of its price point, it takes away sales from the Audi RS4, the BMW M3, Z4M and definitely the Cayman S. BMW had to drop the price of the E92 M3 by an estimated US$20K (10%) probably because of the GT-R.
But as I see it, it hardly touches 997 and the AMG C63market at all, because to 997 buyers, especially those who bought the 997 C2 in preference to the Cayman, they bought it because it is a 911, the embodiment of Porsche, and these people at the back of their minds is the thinking that Porsches must be only the rear engined 911.
Most people love the feeling of the straightline punch of the GT-R or a 400+ HP monster, thus the appeal of the GT-R. It is a given that the best selling car costing cayman S money and above for 2008 in Singapore would DEFINITELY be the GT-R, that is a GUARANTEE. I would wager that more GT-Rs would be sold here in 2008 compared to ALL the non-SUV Porsche variants.
As long as Porsche does not RACE the Cayman officially, Cayman buyers will remain less religiously loyal than 997 buyers, and Porsche will more easily lose market share in the segment the Cayman competes in than their 997 market segment.
I'm sure the folks in Zuffenhausen have not only noticed the performance of the GT-R but the price. They are probably waiting to see how the GT-R sells.
I think that it may be wishful thinking by filahebe to think that noone will cross shop the GT-R with any Porsche. There isn't an infinite number of people buying cars in the 70k plus price range. Even if the GT-R didn't out perform the 997 Turbo it is still very competitive for 60k less. Porsche will have to see if the GT-R will take part of the market share. This could be good for people who want to buy a Porsche. Porsche will have to become more competitive price wise or face losing part of their market.
If Nissan can build a car with that type of performance for just about half the price of a 997 Turbo (and less than a base Carrera or Carrera S) perhaps Porsche will be forced to lower prices.
It would be naive to think that price doesn't matter to most people (yes there are some who will buy a Porsche regardless of price). I've read endless threads on this site complaining, or at least commenting on the high cost of the cars and the options. I also see how eager everyone is to get group discounts for products for the Cayman and Cayman S.
Porsche will either keep up with the competition or eventually be part of automotive history like Hudson, Packard, Studebaker and a host of other companies. Yes it can happen . . . . look at the automotive giants here in the USA. Soon they will all be overtaken by foreign manufactures.
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I'll do anything for money except work. You have to draw the line somewhere.
So do you agree or disagree? You seem to change your mind during the last few posts...
Well...I know one person interested in buying a GT-R who is a current 997TT owner. My brother. His issue is the dealer mark-up. Dealers are starting at $50k over and working down to shake as much money out of the trees as they can It would not replace his Turbo or his M5. It would be a track toy.
I think the assumption that people who can afford to pay $200k for a car are somehow less able to recognize and enjoy an objectively cool car is a bit of class envy, frankly. It reminds me of the folks who claim that Ferrari owners can't drive. My brother is also looking at F430s. And a Lotus. And the R8. And he can drive.
Car people like cars.
Back down at my level, I like this car for example...
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