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04-26-2009, 07:32 AM
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
Originally Posted by zedcat
If you're really worried about it you could consider the 2.9L engine in the base Cayman. It is the new 9A1 design but with conventional FI.
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If Porsche's DFI is not quite ready for prime time? Is the new technology in the 9A1 design ready to go?
It just brings up the next topic of interest...Have we gotten enough feedback yet about the 9A1 engine design, and potential strengths and weaknesses?
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DFI
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Direct Fuel Injection (DFI), is a new technology that Porsche states can cut fuel consumption by up to 15 percent, while increasing power by up to 13 percent. DFI cuts emissions by warming up the catalytic converter more quickly, and ensures a sharper throttle response. Better for your right foot - and the planet, then.
DFI allows much more precise measurement of fuel supply and injection at pressures up to 120 bar; it has numerous combustion modes, with different cycles for cold-starting, low-speed driving and performance driving.
As the name suggests, DFI injects fuel directly into the individual combustion chambers, instead of the intake manifold. The injector valves have an electromagnetic mechanism that controls each injection with astonishing precision, while a high-pressure pump provides the necessary pressure—up to 1,740 psi—to accompany the rapid fire of the fuel injection.
Precise geometry of the injector’s position and its spray pattern is a key factor in helping to improve power, torque and emissions of the engines. The specific placement of the fuel as it enters each chamber creates a swirl that improves the air/fuel mixture, and therefore the overall combustion process.
At engine speeds up to 3500 rpm, a double-injection process is used. In this mode, the required fuel volume is delivered in two successive injections per working stroke. The resulting benefits include faster catalyst warm-up and increased torque in the upper load range.
By forming the air/fuel mix directly in the combustion chamber, DFI contributes to engine cooling. As a result, it is possible to increase the compression ratio and with it the power and efficiency of the engine.
The direct injection process is continuously adjusted. The engine management system reads changes to throttle inputs and performance requirements and, as you drive, the air/fuel mix is monitored and adapted as required. Oxygen sensor circuits within the exhaust system provide accurate emissions control. |
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Last edited by markstudy; 04-26-2009 at 07:49 AM.
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04-26-2009, 07:48 AM
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
I think if one were to order a new cayman, I would bring this up to the salesman and dealership to see if it were going to be covered under warranty, since this will be the bottom line.
If Porsche were going to cover this, buy it and drive it like you stole it. If your left to your own, patience seems to be the virtue of choice. As we get older, we should weigh our options on the decisions we make.
Althought I cannot see Porsche saying, "sure is covered ".
Lastly, you can throw a some Seafoam into the tank once a month and drive it. I do not know enough about the seafoam to comment on it tho.
Personally I would buy a used CS and throw on a TPC kit and you should still be somewhat close to what a new one would cost. The woody it would give will be much bigger, especially when sitting next to one of those rear engine guys.
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04-26-2009, 11:32 AM
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
Originally Posted by markstudy
If Porsche's DFI is not quite ready for prime time? Is the new technology in the 9A1 design ready to go?
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9A1 is just a block - it has nothing to do with any fuel injection system. The 9A1 crankcase is far better than the last one so I would buy the 2.9 instead of a used CS.
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04-26-2009, 01:40 PM
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Porsche Activist
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
Originally Posted by wilson4tw
I think if one were to order a new cayman, I would bring this up to the salesman and dealership to see if it were going to be covered under warranty, since this will be the bottom line.
If Porsche were going to cover this, buy it and drive it like you stole it. If your left to your own, patience seems to be the virtue of choice. As we get older, we should weigh our options on the decisions we make.
Althought I cannot see Porsche saying, "sure is covered ".
Lastly, you can throw a some Seafoam into the tank once a month and drive it. I do not know enough about the seafoam to comment on it tho.
Personally I would buy a used CS and throw on a TPC kit and you should still be somewhat close to what a new one would cost. The woody it would give will be much bigger, especially when sitting next to one of those rear engine guys.
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I was thinking of calling the dealership on Monday and see what they have to say about all of this. If they will cover it then I will not worry about it. Want to be sure I do not drop 80k on a car that is going to have issues with DFI. Thanks for your opinion.
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DFI
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Direct Fuel Injection (DFI), is a new technology that Porsche states can cut fuel consumption by up to 15 percent, while increasing power by up to 13 percent. DFI cuts emissions by warming up the catalytic converter more quickly, and ensures a sharper throttle response. Better for your right foot - and the planet, then.
DFI allows much more precise measurement of fuel supply and injection at pressures up to 120 bar; it has numerous combustion modes, with different cycles for cold-starting, low-speed driving and performance driving.
As the name suggests, DFI injects fuel directly into the individual combustion chambers, instead of the intake manifold. The injector valves have an electromagnetic mechanism that controls each injection with astonishing precision, while a high-pressure pump provides the necessary pressure—up to 1,740 psi—to accompany the rapid fire of the fuel injection.
Precise geometry of the injector’s position and its spray pattern is a key factor in helping to improve power, torque and emissions of the engines. The specific placement of the fuel as it enters each chamber creates a swirl that improves the air/fuel mixture, and therefore the overall combustion process.
At engine speeds up to 3500 rpm, a double-injection process is used. In this mode, the required fuel volume is delivered in two successive injections per working stroke. The resulting benefits include faster catalyst warm-up and increased torque in the upper load range.
By forming the air/fuel mix directly in the combustion chamber, DFI contributes to engine cooling. As a result, it is possible to increase the compression ratio and with it the power and efficiency of the engine.
The direct injection process is continuously adjusted. The engine management system reads changes to throttle inputs and performance requirements and, as you drive, the air/fuel mix is monitored and adapted as required. Oxygen sensor circuits within the exhaust system provide accurate emissions control. |
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04-26-2009, 02:54 PM
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Re: USA and other cars run lean. Stoichometric mixture is 14.7:1 (or thereabouts)....
Originally Posted by Lucky
Ordering a 2101 CS in June for September delivery. If this were you would this DFI issue stop you from ordering?
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Apparently, your current car has a flux capacitor. :-)
Just had to. Please continue!
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04-26-2009, 03:12 PM
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Re: USA and other cars run lean. Stoichometric mixture is 14.7:1 (or thereabouts)....
Originally Posted by Chupacabra
Apparently, your current car has a flux capacitor. :-)
Just had to. Please continue!
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oops! caught that as well after I sent it 2010 is more likely. So my question was just to the subject of 2009 with DFI. The thread I read about that issue. One thing it says was to drive it hard so I am happy to do that. Just want to be sure people are not having any problems with DFI as far as this build up the thread was talking about. September cannot get here fast enough. I have been by the dealership several times to take a drive and to just look at how beautiful this car is. I came so close to a 911 turbo and held off. I know some may say I am crazy to pick a CS over a 911 turbo but I really do love the way the CS handle and looks.
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DFI
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Direct Fuel Injection (DFI), is a new technology that Porsche states can cut fuel consumption by up to 15 percent, while increasing power by up to 13 percent. DFI cuts emissions by warming up the catalytic converter more quickly, and ensures a sharper throttle response. Better for your right foot - and the planet, then.
DFI allows much more precise measurement of fuel supply and injection at pressures up to 120 bar; it has numerous combustion modes, with different cycles for cold-starting, low-speed driving and performance driving.
As the name suggests, DFI injects fuel directly into the individual combustion chambers, instead of the intake manifold. The injector valves have an electromagnetic mechanism that controls each injection with astonishing precision, while a high-pressure pump provides the necessary pressure—up to 1,740 psi—to accompany the rapid fire of the fuel injection.
Precise geometry of the injector’s position and its spray pattern is a key factor in helping to improve power, torque and emissions of the engines. The specific placement of the fuel as it enters each chamber creates a swirl that improves the air/fuel mixture, and therefore the overall combustion process.
At engine speeds up to 3500 rpm, a double-injection process is used. In this mode, the required fuel volume is delivered in two successive injections per working stroke. The resulting benefits include faster catalyst warm-up and increased torque in the upper load range.
By forming the air/fuel mix directly in the combustion chamber, DFI contributes to engine cooling. As a result, it is possible to increase the compression ratio and with it the power and efficiency of the engine.
The direct injection process is continuously adjusted. The engine management system reads changes to throttle inputs and performance requirements and, as you drive, the air/fuel mix is monitored and adapted as required. Oxygen sensor circuits within the exhaust system provide accurate emissions control. |
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04-26-2009, 04:46 PM
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Re: USA and other cars run lean. Stoichometric mixture is 14.7:1 (or thereabouts)....
Originally Posted by Lucky
oops! caught that as well after I sent it 2010 is more likely. So my question was just to the subject of 2009 with DFI. The thread I read about that issue. One thing it says was to drive it hard so I am happy to do that. Just want to be sure people are not having any problems with DFI as far as this build up the thread was talking about. September cannot get here fast enough. I have been by the dealership several times to take a drive and to just look at how beautiful this car is. I came so close to a 911 turbo and held off. I know some may say I am crazy to pick a CS over a 911 turbo but I really do love the way the CS handle and looks.
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I don't think that's crazy at all...two completely different animals. Just because one is more expensive doesn't make it any better! As for the engine, lots of good advice here, and one thing I know from airplane engines -- run the **** out of it and it will probably be pretty clean and happy!
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04-26-2009, 05:43 PM
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Porsche Activist
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Re: USA and other cars run lean. Stoichometric mixture is 14.7:1 (or thereabouts)....
Originally Posted by Chupacabra
I don't think that's crazy at all...two completely different animals. Just because one is more expensive doesn't make it any better! As for the engine, lots of good advice here, and one thing I know from airplane engines -- run the **** out of it and it will probably be pretty clean and happy!
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Works for me since I do like to drive sports cars the way they are meant to be driven.
Will be sure to post some pics when it arrives. Thanks again for your advice.
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04-26-2009, 07:45 PM
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Porsche Activist
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Re: USA and other cars run lean. Stoichometric mixture is 14.7:1 (or thereabouts)....
One item no one has mentioned here is the effect of operating a DFI and PDK equipped vehicle. If PDK tries to hold the rpm as low as possible, that would seem to make the "buildup" problem worse.
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DFI
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Direct Fuel Injection (DFI), is a new technology that Porsche states can cut fuel consumption by up to 15 percent, while increasing power by up to 13 percent. DFI cuts emissions by warming up the catalytic converter more quickly, and ensures a sharper throttle response. Better for your right foot - and the planet, then.
DFI allows much more precise measurement of fuel supply and injection at pressures up to 120 bar; it has numerous combustion modes, with different cycles for cold-starting, low-speed driving and performance driving.
As the name suggests, DFI injects fuel directly into the individual combustion chambers, instead of the intake manifold. The injector valves have an electromagnetic mechanism that controls each injection with astonishing precision, while a high-pressure pump provides the necessary pressure—up to 1,740 psi—to accompany the rapid fire of the fuel injection.
Precise geometry of the injector’s position and its spray pattern is a key factor in helping to improve power, torque and emissions of the engines. The specific placement of the fuel as it enters each chamber creates a swirl that improves the air/fuel mixture, and therefore the overall combustion process.
At engine speeds up to 3500 rpm, a double-injection process is used. In this mode, the required fuel volume is delivered in two successive injections per working stroke. The resulting benefits include faster catalyst warm-up and increased torque in the upper load range.
By forming the air/fuel mix directly in the combustion chamber, DFI contributes to engine cooling. As a result, it is possible to increase the compression ratio and with it the power and efficiency of the engine.
The direct injection process is continuously adjusted. The engine management system reads changes to throttle inputs and performance requirements and, as you drive, the air/fuel mix is monitored and adapted as required. Oxygen sensor circuits within the exhaust system provide accurate emissions control. |
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04-26-2009, 07:47 PM
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No. But not because of the possible issue of intake valve deposits....
Originally Posted by Lucky
So would you still order a 2010 CS knowing this ?
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I just normally hold off buying a new model of any car. 'course a '10 is the second year of the new engine/transmission.
Anyway, I prefer to buy the last example of a model before a changeover. Generally these are the best sorted cars and have a couple to 4 or more years of fixes applied.
Will have a Porsche with a DFI engine and PDK one of these days though. My plan is to drive my '08 Cayman S a couple of years and then buy a DFI/PDK equipped Porsche.
Not really worried about a DFI engine. If I can get 217K out of an '02 Boxster engine and transmission/clutch I think I can keep the DFI engine intake valves clean...
Sincerely,
Rockster.
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DFI
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Direct Fuel Injection (DFI), is a new technology that Porsche states can cut fuel consumption by up to 15 percent, while increasing power by up to 13 percent. DFI cuts emissions by warming up the catalytic converter more quickly, and ensures a sharper throttle response. Better for your right foot - and the planet, then.
DFI allows much more precise measurement of fuel supply and injection at pressures up to 120 bar; it has numerous combustion modes, with different cycles for cold-starting, low-speed driving and performance driving.
As the name suggests, DFI injects fuel directly into the individual combustion chambers, instead of the intake manifold. The injector valves have an electromagnetic mechanism that controls each injection with astonishing precision, while a high-pressure pump provides the necessary pressure—up to 1,740 psi—to accompany the rapid fire of the fuel injection.
Precise geometry of the injector’s position and its spray pattern is a key factor in helping to improve power, torque and emissions of the engines. The specific placement of the fuel as it enters each chamber creates a swirl that improves the air/fuel mixture, and therefore the overall combustion process.
At engine speeds up to 3500 rpm, a double-injection process is used. In this mode, the required fuel volume is delivered in two successive injections per working stroke. The resulting benefits include faster catalyst warm-up and increased torque in the upper load range.
By forming the air/fuel mix directly in the combustion chamber, DFI contributes to engine cooling. As a result, it is possible to increase the compression ratio and with it the power and efficiency of the engine.
The direct injection process is continuously adjusted. The engine management system reads changes to throttle inputs and performance requirements and, as you drive, the air/fuel mix is monitored and adapted as required. Oxygen sensor circuits within the exhaust system provide accurate emissions control. |
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04-26-2009, 08:31 PM
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Porsche Activist
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Georgia
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Re: USA and other cars run lean. Stoichometric mixture is 14.7:1 (or thereabouts)....
Originally Posted by lspain
One item no one has mentioned here is the effect of operating a DFI and PDK equipped vehicle. If PDK tries to hold the rpm as low as possible, that would seem to make the "buildup" problem worse.
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Guess it is a good thing my order will be a manual.
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04-26-2009, 08:35 PM
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Porsche Activist
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Re: No. But not because of the possible issue of intake valve deposits....
Originally Posted by Rockster
I just normally hold off buying a new model of any car. 'course a '10 is the second year of the new engine/transmission.
Anyway, I prefer to buy the last example of a model before a changeover. Generally these are the best sorted cars and have a couple to 4 or more years of fixes applied.
Will have a Porsche with a DFI engine and PDK one of these days though. My plan is to drive my '08 Cayman S a couple of years and then buy a DFI/PDK equipped Porsche.
Not really worried about a DFI engine. If I can get 217K out of an '02 Boxster engine and transmission/clutch I think I can keep the DFI engine intake valves clean...
Sincerely,
Rockster.
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I have heard that before. I hope that the 2010 may not have these concerns. My 07' cooper s was when they changed to turbo an there were several concerns and people saying not to buy the first year out. I have around 20k miles and not one problem. I hope I do as well with the 2010 CS. It will be fun to go back and forth between those 2 cars. Coopers are a blast to drive as well. Thanks for your feedback.
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DFI
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Direct Fuel Injection (DFI), is a new technology that Porsche states can cut fuel consumption by up to 15 percent, while increasing power by up to 13 percent. DFI cuts emissions by warming up the catalytic converter more quickly, and ensures a sharper throttle response. Better for your right foot - and the planet, then.
DFI allows much more precise measurement of fuel supply and injection at pressures up to 120 bar; it has numerous combustion modes, with different cycles for cold-starting, low-speed driving and performance driving.
As the name suggests, DFI injects fuel directly into the individual combustion chambers, instead of the intake manifold. The injector valves have an electromagnetic mechanism that controls each injection with astonishing precision, while a high-pressure pump provides the necessary pressure—up to 1,740 psi—to accompany the rapid fire of the fuel injection.
Precise geometry of the injector’s position and its spray pattern is a key factor in helping to improve power, torque and emissions of the engines. The specific placement of the fuel as it enters each chamber creates a swirl that improves the air/fuel mixture, and therefore the overall combustion process.
At engine speeds up to 3500 rpm, a double-injection process is used. In this mode, the required fuel volume is delivered in two successive injections per working stroke. The resulting benefits include faster catalyst warm-up and increased torque in the upper load range.
By forming the air/fuel mix directly in the combustion chamber, DFI contributes to engine cooling. As a result, it is possible to increase the compression ratio and with it the power and efficiency of the engine.
The direct injection process is continuously adjusted. The engine management system reads changes to throttle inputs and performance requirements and, as you drive, the air/fuel mix is monitored and adapted as required. Oxygen sensor circuits within the exhaust system provide accurate emissions control. |
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04-27-2009, 01:57 PM
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
Originally Posted by graphix25
Like I needed any more reasons to hit red line at least a couple of times a day.

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Yeah baby! I'm using that the next time I get pulled over for "aggressive driving" or whatever the cops come up with to get a look at my car.
__________________

'08 Guards Red CS, 6 sp, 19" Carrera Classic Wheels, Black Standard Leather Interior, Heated Sport Seats, Bose Sound System, Sport Chrono, Auto Climate, Auto Dimming Mirrors, Xenon HID and uh a rocket booster, yeah that's the ticket!
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04-27-2009, 08:07 PM
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
The engine build up appears to be common problem on DFI engines with relatively low miles. In another forum, an owner of 09 C2S said he is having an excessive soot problem in the exhaust. He took the mufflers off and could pour soot out of them. Lets just say he is not pleased and does not believe the car can be a daily driver because of concerns about too many issues.
It is crazy to think that owners of 09 Porsches are willing to to avoid short trips, continually drive spirited, change the oil every 5 k, and Sea Foam their new Porsches in order to minimize the build up. Sounds like a possible major design flaw that could have dire financial consequences for those planning on keeping their porsches beyond warranty. This issue, if true, needs to be addressed by Porsche or it could be a real deal breaker for many potential buys who have done their do diligence.
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DFI
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Direct Fuel Injection (DFI), is a new technology that Porsche states can cut fuel consumption by up to 15 percent, while increasing power by up to 13 percent. DFI cuts emissions by warming up the catalytic converter more quickly, and ensures a sharper throttle response. Better for your right foot - and the planet, then.
DFI allows much more precise measurement of fuel supply and injection at pressures up to 120 bar; it has numerous combustion modes, with different cycles for cold-starting, low-speed driving and performance driving.
As the name suggests, DFI injects fuel directly into the individual combustion chambers, instead of the intake manifold. The injector valves have an electromagnetic mechanism that controls each injection with astonishing precision, while a high-pressure pump provides the necessary pressure—up to 1,740 psi—to accompany the rapid fire of the fuel injection.
Precise geometry of the injector’s position and its spray pattern is a key factor in helping to improve power, torque and emissions of the engines. The specific placement of the fuel as it enters each chamber creates a swirl that improves the air/fuel mixture, and therefore the overall combustion process.
At engine speeds up to 3500 rpm, a double-injection process is used. In this mode, the required fuel volume is delivered in two successive injections per working stroke. The resulting benefits include faster catalyst warm-up and increased torque in the upper load range.
By forming the air/fuel mix directly in the combustion chamber, DFI contributes to engine cooling. As a result, it is possible to increase the compression ratio and with it the power and efficiency of the engine.
The direct injection process is continuously adjusted. The engine management system reads changes to throttle inputs and performance requirements and, as you drive, the air/fuel mix is monitored and adapted as required. Oxygen sensor circuits within the exhaust system provide accurate emissions control. |
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Last edited by ruff; 04-27-2009 at 08:13 PM.
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04-27-2009, 09:31 PM
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Porsche Purist
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
Lets not exaggerate this. I am sure Porsche will come up with a fix. I do believe its as simple as software. Best part, if you track and drive your hard - it runs better!
__________________
Tomasz
Apologies for spelling mistakes, most of them are keyboarding errors. To enjoy this forum I run out of time to proof read.
My garage: 2000 Audi S4 (not stock) | 2007 Porsche Cayman S (FabSpeed Headers, RS60 Tips, SRP 4.1, ATB, GT3 Ducts, GT3 RS Steering & Shifter, Custom Aluminum Look, ZR4)
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04-27-2009, 09:54 PM
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
Originally Posted by Tomasz
Lets not exaggerate this. I am sure Porsche will come up with a fix. I do believe its as simple as software. Best part, if you track and drive your hard - it runs better!
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That thread just before yours does make it out to sound really bad. I do hope you are correct and Porsche gets right on this and comes up with a solution. I am ready to place my order in June for a 2010 and want to know it is the right time to do so. I do drive my cars hard so if that is enough that would be good news however would still like to know that Porsche does something to correct this as well.
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04-28-2009, 06:13 AM
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Porsche Spieler
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
I'm really puzzled at how these "flaws" come up. I'm sure Porsche has one of the best QA's, why then are these things happening?!
__________________
"Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"
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04-28-2009, 06:25 AM
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
Originally Posted by Nitro8472
I'm really puzzled at how these "flaws" come up. I'm sure Porsche has one of the best QA's, why then are these things happening?!
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Small volume car manufactures, have always used their costumers as part of the quality and testing phase.
Buying from a specialty company is one part charm, two parts...pain in the azz
Porsche might be 10 times bigger than Ferrari, and 15 times bigger than Lambo.....but they are still very small, so we become the testing dummies
Last edited by markstudy; 04-28-2009 at 06:35 AM.
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04-28-2009, 06:30 AM
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Re: USA and other cars run lean. Stoichometric mixture is 14.7:1 (or thereabouts)....
Originally Posted by lspain
One item no one has mentioned here is the effect of operating a DFI and PDK equipped vehicle. If PDK tries to hold the rpm as low as possible, that would seem to make the "buildup" problem worse.
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Sport Chrono solves that problem
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04-28-2009, 08:09 AM
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Re: Maybe DFI is not a good buy
My brother is buying a new Cayenne GTS (he has an '06 S), and I told him about the findings on the DFI Turbo motor posted here, but he told me 'I'm not buying a turbo, so I should be fine, right?'. Didn't have an answer, so I'm asking you now  . Can we assume NA engines might develop the same problems?
My personal concern would be fuel pump issues, like BMW is experiencing. I don't plan to own this technology for a while. Good day gang.
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DFI
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Direct Fuel Injection (DFI), is a new technology that Porsche states can cut fuel consumption by up to 15 percent, while increasing power by up to 13 percent. DFI cuts emissions by warming up the catalytic converter more quickly, and ensures a sharper throttle response. Better for your right foot - and the planet, then.
DFI allows much more precise measurement of fuel supply and injection at pressures up to 120 bar; it has numerous combustion modes, with different cycles for cold-starting, low-speed driving and performance driving.
As the name suggests, DFI injects fuel directly into the individual combustion chambers, instead of the intake manifold. The injector valves have an electromagnetic mechanism that controls each injection with astonishing precision, while a high-pressure pump provides the necessary pressure—up to 1,740 psi—to accompany the rapid fire of the fuel injection.
Precise geometry of the injector’s position and its spray pattern is a key factor in helping to improve power, torque and emissions of the engines. The specific placement of the fuel as it enters each chamber creates a swirl that improves the air/fuel mixture, and therefore the overall combustion process.
At engine speeds up to 3500 rpm, a double-injection process is used. In this mode, the required fuel volume is delivered in two successive injections per working stroke. The resulting benefits include faster catalyst warm-up and increased torque in the upper load range.
By forming the air/fuel mix directly in the combustion chamber, DFI contributes to engine cooling. As a result, it is possible to increase the compression ratio and with it the power and efficiency of the engine.
The direct injection process is continuously adjusted. The engine management system reads changes to throttle inputs and performance requirements and, as you drive, the air/fuel mix is monitored and adapted as required. Oxygen sensor circuits within the exhaust system provide accurate emissions control. |
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