Planet 9

3 lions · #41 05-07-2008, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by sdiver68

The first response to new Japanese competitor threads is always "it's ugly" shortly followed by "it's not German" or some variation of Brand X stinks.

350hp, 3000 lbs, proven platform, $35K...even if it needs a few mods to be track ready what street/track car doesn't?

Personally, I'm intrigued. If nothing else, more competition will force improvement by Porsche. Or else German cars will be relegated to the same place German performance motorcycles are...

No, that is not my first response to every new Japanese competitors, but it is in this case as it is in ref to the GTR. In addition I didn't say it's not German I said it's not a Porsche, because Porsche is presently a stronger brand when it comes to sports cars and has stronger appeal to me and many others.

Personally I would not jump to the conclusion that a VW is always a better car but I would give the benefit of the doubt to BMW and Merc.

I'm objective, I have owned, French, German, USA, and Japanese cars and appreciated them all for what they are and how they fit into my lifestyle at those times.

Personally, I don't think competition from Nissan will force anything from Porsche. If it was from a competitive brand maybe, but Nissan is not a competitive brand to Porsche.

I will state this again, some absolute gear heads for whom HP is a must may swap but I suspect many Porsche owners purchase due to the brand kudos (not necessarily those on this site) and switching to a Nissan will not even enter their minds.

3 lions · #42 05-07-2008, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Not to be ignorant, but your comments remind me of what executives at Cadillac were saying in the 70's and 80's. And then came the rebadged Cavalier errr Cimarron. It has taken them the better part of 2 decades to reclaim an part of their image, they are still fighting hard to reclaim the rest of it.

I know PAG not only cares, but will respond, based on public comments made by company representatives. They are on record multiple times in regards to the GT-R... They will respond in the Porsche way...continued evolution of existing models.

A great example but I have to say that this issue was not Cadillacs alone. All the US manufacturers took their market dominance for granted and turned out poorly engineered cars leaving the door wide open for the imports.

They are still playing catch up. The technology being offered in the US made cars today is still behind that of the imports in many cases, OHV engines, 4 speed gear boxes. Yes, they are loading up with touch screen and voice activated this and that but the basics aren't there in many cases.

I cannot see Porsche making the same mistakes.

I agree that Porsche will deal with the GTR issue but in their own time and own way. IMHO I cannot see them developing a car with Porsche Turbo like performance and selling it for $70,000. Neither will Ferrari, Aston Martin, Lambo and....

chows4us · #43 05-07-2008, 02:09 PM

First, read the demographics in those reports on who buys p-cars. If you believed the target audience, do you think those people are going to buy a Nissan instead of a P-car? Second, really who cares? I mean this in the sense that those who fall into the p-car demographics will continue to buy P-cars regardless of what the competition comes up with.

Nitro8472 · #44 05-07-2008, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by wushuhsu

In other words, Porsche buyers are the ones who would buy a 350Z if it was made by Porsche and not buy a Cayman S if it was made by Nissan. It's all about the badge and not the car.

I think true to some (big) extent!

________________________

"Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

A good car will get you from point A to point B. A great car... will just get you into trouble!

3 lions · #45 05-07-2008, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by wushuhsu

In other words, Porsche buyers are the ones who would buy a 350Z if it was made by Porsche and not buy a Cayman S if it was made by Nissan. It's all about the badge and not the car.

Possibly, many Porsche's are sold to owners who are more interested in the badge than in the capabilities of the car.

What make the badge so attractive? It's the brand and all Porsche has done over the years, the position of the brand, what it stands for, the perceived quality of it's products and exclusivity.

I would say many buyers would buy the Z if it was built by Porsche to their exacting standards and quality. It isn't, I have taken time this lunch break and checked out the existing model Z car. It is gimmicky and the interior is full of stuff but lacks quality. By the way I also checked out a Corvette again just to maintain my objectivity, my opinion hasn't changed.

If the Cayman was built by Nissan to Porsche's quality then maybe more would buy it but the Nissan brand is not the powerhouse that Porsche is and some would not no matter how good the car. After all they build Sentras, Altimas and a bunch of other average cars.

If the Cayman built by Nissan was of Nissan quality then it would sell more than the Z because it isn't as ugly IMHO.

The reality is that these brands do not compete even if the Z car is competitive from a performance POV. As stated in an earlier post, they are aimed at different demo graphics and even though a small number of consumers may cross shop, the majority will not.

chows4us · #46 05-07-2008, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by wushuhsu

No, ifs, ands, or buts about it. I'm talking about the exact same 350Z and the exact same Cayman S --- same quality, same capabilities, same price. Just switch the badges. Porsche owner psychographics says a Porsche owner would buy a Porsche 350Z and pass up a Nissan Cayman S, just because it's a Porsche.

I would agree. It should be obvious from those reports. Some buyers, a percentage of them, would ... not all of them. Don't imply that all of them will if you read the percentages.

3 lions · #47 05-07-2008, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by wushuhsu

No, ifs, ands, or buts about it. I'm talking about the exact same 350Z and the exact same Cayman S --- same quality, same capabilities, same price. Just switch the badges. Porsche owner psychographics says a Porsche owner would buy a Porsche 350Z and pass up a Nissan Cayman S, just because it's a Porsche.

(If you want to talk about allowing for changes, then a Nissan Cayman S would have more than 295 HP, LSD, xenon headlights as a standard (not a $1090 optional) part of the car, keyless entry and ignition (even entry-level Nissans have this), a better navigation system, state-of-the-art electronics and stereo system, and dual-clutch transmission. And, it would be faster than a Porsche Turbo for half the price.)

Yes Porsche psychographics are correct, the brand strength and customer loyalty would probably allow them to sell a Z. Some people would buy anything with a Porsche badge no doubt, but not for long.

Porsche has a reputation to maintain and a brand to protect so they would not build a car like the Z. If they did, they will sell but it would be the beginning of the end. They know it.

A Nissan Cayman S could have all the trinkets and trash added and would be built to Nissan standards, it would lack the poise and be heavy, because to offer all the stuff there would be massive compromises elsewhere. Therefore it would not and cannot be the car we know the CS to be.

If Nissan built the Cayman as it is without any compromise then they may be able to sell it for less but not the same price as the Z IMHO. It would be an expensive Nissan and look what happened to VW when they tried to move the brand too far up market.

Frankly, this discussion of brand strength keeps coming up in other post also.Being a marketer I find it difficult not to get drawn in as I know you cannot compare a Nissan product from a brand perspective to a Porsche. Building a brand the strength of Porsche takes a lot of time and $$$ and drive. Nissan and the like will not get there overnight if ever, it isn't what they exist for. They are volume manufacturers and will compromise heavily to meet a price point that fits the demo they are targeting.

If you like all the "stuff" wrapped up in a $35,000 package then buy a Nissan because to think that Porsche is going to start to package all that "stuff" into a Cayman for less is a pipe dream. They just don't need to do it.

If anyone is unhappy with the packaging of Porsche cars then vote with your $$$ that is the only thing that will effect Porsche.

Porsche isn't competing with Nissan etc. and surprise, surprise, they are competitive from a value perspective with their competition.

No the Z is not a competitor for the Cayman.

3 lions · #48 05-07-2008, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by 3 lions View Post
Yes Porsche psychographics are correct, the brand strength and customer loyalty would probably allow them to sell a Z. Some people would buy anything with a Porsche badge no doubt, but not for long.

If anyone is unhappy with the packaging of Porsche cars then vote with your $$$ that is the only thing that will effect Porsche.

Originally Posted by wushuhsu

Now we're getting to the point. Can anyone say "Internet Boycott"?

Selective editing!!!!!!

The rest of my post is the real meat of the argument and much more compelling than the Porsche Z car fantasy.

Nissan Z is not a competitor for the Cayman because Nissan is not a competitive brand with Porsche.

However we do agree that we can all make ourselves heard with our $$$$.

**Chris S** · #49 05-07-2008, 08:55 PM

Good luck w/ your boycott, you'll need it. The Cayman is one of the best sports cars on the market, and it's still not good enough...

Originally Posted by wushuhsu

That's my point. I tell everyone I know, friends, family, and co-workers, not to buy a Cayman until Porsche gives it the horsepower and LSD that it deserves. There are those who would have you believe that Porsche AG is the only company in the world that doesn't need to pay attention to its customers or competitors (because it has none), but I think they're dead wrong.

**gto_in_nc** · #50 05-07-2008, 10:45 PM

I think the problem is that there are at least four interpretations of the concept of "rival" in play in this thread. Some view it as "competition from Porsche AG's perspective", some view it as "from the 'traditional' Porsche buyer's perspective" (which will likely influence Porsche's reaction, in combination with any reputation the Nissan might earn on the track), some view it as "from my perspective" and some view it from the perspective of "when I see one appear in my rearview at the beginning of a long twisty stretch, will my pulse quicken?"

Just my

...

3 lions · #51 05-07-2008, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by wushuhsu

That's my point. I tell everyone I know, friends, family, and co-workers, not to buy a Cayman until Porsche gives it the horsepower and LSD that it deserves. There are those who would have you believe that Porsche AG is the only company in the world that doesn't need to pay attention to its customers or competitors (because it has none), but I think they're dead wrong.

I'm not suggesting Porsche doesn't have competitors or shouldn't listen to their customers. What I'm saying is that Nissan is not one of their competitors. Secondly, as posted in other streams the Cayman will get performance enhancements when it suits Porsche, their plans for the Cayman and where it sits in the Porsche product hierarchy.

Do you own a Cayman, if so why, because you seem so disgruntled with Porsche. If you're this unhappy with Porsche buy a Nissan if you believe they offer a better product.

I don't think we will ever completely find common ground on this topic. I've stated my case and I know it is sound and now I will bow out of this debate gracefully.

Nitro8472 · #52 05-08-2008, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by wushuhsu

(If you want to talk about allowing for changes, then a Nissan Cayman S would have more than 295 HP, LSD, xenon headlights as a standard (not a $1090 optional) part of the car, keyless entry and ignition (even entry-level Nissans have this), a better navigation system, state-of-the-art electronics and stereo system, and dual-clutch transmission. And, it would be faster than a Porsche Turbo for half the price.)

Well the 2008 has more than 295bhp, and still a tip Cayman can embarrass it, and I dont remember seeing it having keyless entry nor a better nav system. Isnt the 350Z Nissan's Cayman?!

Plus, they put all that to hide the quality defects, I've seen 2.0L Chinese cars with everything from front and rear DVD's to multizone climate control and they cost less than my 1.6L C4!!

________________________

"Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

A good car will get you from point A to point B. A great car... will just get you into trouble!

RingSport · #53 05-08-2008, 08:38 AM

I think the fact that a lot of people are discussing Nissans on Porsche forums says a lot. Look at how many people on rennlist who have GT3s and Turbos are getting one to see if it lives up to the hype. If the GTR was out when I bought my CS I'd damn sure cross shop them. For people to say they won't cross shop because of the brand name is silly. Perceptions change. Keep in mind Nissan, especially the skyline has enjoyed a global reputation for years as a giant slayer. As the US is exposed to this car perceptions will change. If it maintains its ridiculously high level of performance, over time it will have the cache to steal quite a few sales from Porsche. Will it ever have the same cache as Porsche? No, but that's because they don't have the same history or product focus. Now 20 years from today if Porsche has continued to dilute the product offering from their core sports car routes and nissan has continued to blow the doors off competitors at a fraction of the cost, that could change too. Who knows we could all be driving R47 GTRs in 20 years and mocking soccer moms in Porsche station wagons that are built in Helsinki or the ukraine.

Nitro8472 · #54 05-08-2008, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by RingSport

Now 20 years from today if Porsche has continued to dilute the product offering from their core sports car routes and nissan has continued to blow the doors off competitors at a fraction of the cost, that could change too. Who knows we could all be driving R47 GTRs in 20 years and mocking soccer moms in Porsche station wagons that are built in Helsinki or the ukraine.

Now that is a future to fear

________________________

"Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

A good car will get you from point A to point B. A great car... will just get you into trouble!

im2bz2p345 · #55 05-14-2008, 10:06 AM

A question to you all.. do you think Ferrari and Porsche ever considered Audi a competitor? Audi is known for manufacturing many sedans/passenger cars that are less than $50K. Now think about Audi's R8.. is it now a competitor to Ferrari and Porsche? 2008 Audi R8 vs. 2008 Ferrari F430 and 2008 Porsche 911 - New and Future Cars, Trucks, and SUVs - Automobile Magazine

I think a lot of you need to be more open minded. If you guys don't consider the new 370Z competition to the Cayman, you must be stuck on the brand image and trying to be exclusive.

As Zam correctly said: "Any lightweight (<3k lbs), rwd, 2 seat or 2+2 car offered with a manual is competition to the Cayman. It could cost $15k or $150k and they would compete."

Price is one factor in comparing cars, but our interpretation of "competition" for Porsche comes in terms on performance. Using this logic, the Nissan GT-R is a competition to the Porsche 911 series.. did Porsche ever consider Nissan a competitor? No. Do times change and does Porsche have to be more open minded now? Yes.

Cheers

~ Busypee

Nitro8472 · #56 05-14-2008, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by wushuhsu

Well, the Nissan GT-R has 473HP and embarrasses a tip Porsche. Pay attention, we're talking about the 370Z, not the 350Z.

Not sure about that, coz I remember thinking to myself that track test was unfair for putting a DSG GTR againest a manual turbo!

________________________

"Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

A good car will get you from point A to point B. A great car... will just get you into trouble!

**isst** · #57 05-14-2008, 03:38 PM

Should not be an issue. Way to many people have had problems with Nissan and their service. Most Japanese car manufacturers don't have this problem but personal experience and feedback from many friends along with feedback posted on the 350Z forums have shown that Nissan is not standing behind thier products.

Naybor · #58 05-14-2008, 10:04 PM

Wouldn't it be sick if the next Cayman was 2500 pounds rather than having more HP? I may have to strip mine out to make that a reality.

3 lions · #59 05-14-2008, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by im2bz2p345

A question to you all.. do you think Ferrari and Porsche ever considered Audi a competitor? Audi is known for manufacturing many sedans/passenger cars that are less than $50K. Now think about Audi's R8.. is it now a competitor to Ferrari and Porsche? 2008 Audi R8 vs. 2008 Ferrari F430 and 2008 Porsche 911 - New and Future Cars, Trucks, and SUVs - Automobile Magazine

I think a lot of you need to be more open minded. If you guys don't consider the new 370Z competition to the Cayman, you must be stuck on the brand image and trying to be exclusive.

As Zam correctly said: "Any lightweight (<3k lbs), rwd, 2 seat or 2+2 car offered with a manual is competition to the Cayman. It could cost $15k or $150k and they would compete."

Price is one factor in comparing cars, but our interpretation of "competition" for Porsche comes in terms on performance. Using this logic, the Nissan GT-R is a competition to the Porsche 911 series.. did Porsche ever consider Nissan a competitor? No. Do times change and does Porsche have to be more open minded now? Yes.

Cheers

~ Busypee

Marketing is much more complex than Porsche vs Nissan. Is a Nissan Sentra a competitor for any Porsche. Is an Audi A3 a competitive model for any Porsche.

What we have here is market segmentation where Nissan is not the competitor but the GTR is. Audi R8 yes, the Audi Q7 possibly, other Audi's?

The GTR is not here to sell GTR's but to improve the perception of Nissan cars in general, so they can sell more Sentra's, Maxima's etc.

Which ever way you cut it Nissan is not the performance brand that Porsche is. If they, over the next 20-30 years, develop a series of high quality high performance sports cars, win many races, Le mans and others, then they will start to close the gap. In the mean time they will go broke.

Nissan exists to sell nice mass produced vehicles, like Toyota and Honda. They will develop eye catching, PR generating cars to help develop their brand and sell more Sentra's. That's why Toyota and Honda race so heavily

Like it or not, apart from a few open minded consumers, most who can afford a Porsche want a Porsche because of what it represents and do not consider a Nissan 370Z, Mazda Miata, Honda 2000, Pontiac Solstice or Saturn Sky as options.

im2bz2p345 · #60 05-15-2008, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by 3 lions

Marketing is much more complex than Porsche vs Nissan. Is a Nissan Sentra a competitor for any Porsche. Is an Audi A3 a competitive model for any Porsche.

What we have here is market segmentation where Nissan is not the competitor but the GTR is. Audi R8 yes, the Audi Q7 possibly, other Audi's?

The GTR is not here to sell GTR's but to improve the perception of Nissan cars in general, so they can sell more Sentra's, Maxima's etc.

Which ever way you cut it Nissan is not the performance brand that Porsche is. If they, over the next 20-30 years, develop a series of high quality high performance sports cars, win many races, Le mans and others, then they will start to close the gap. In the mean time they will go broke.

Nissan exists to sell nice mass produced vehicles, like Toyota and Honda. They will develop eye catching, PR generating cars to help develop their brand and sell more Sentra's. That's why Toyota and Honda race so heavily

Like it or not, apart from a few open minded consumers, most who can afford a Porsche want a Porsche because of what it represents and do not consider a Nissan 370Z, Mazda Miata, Honda 2000, Pontiac Solstice or Saturn Sky as options.

Marketing is one aspect of it. Racing history and developing a legacy is also another aspect. For the most part, I agree on your points regarding the two of these.

But which Porsche or Ferrari owner wants a sedan/passenger car manufacturer such as Audi to destroy their ego by engineering a mass production vehicle that gives these "performance" car a run for their money? Like I said, a lot of these owners and companies just need to be more open-minded. They need to realize that just about any company could produce a vehicle that competes in their "exclusive" performance bracket. The cars these "new" performance car manfacturers produce are direct competition for their brand name. Porsche or Ferrari cannot be certain that just because the R8 was produced.. Audi won't be making more cars in this bracket to further their name in the performance market.

Don't you find it remarkable that a company full of people whose focus is to design your everyday passenger vehicles can produce a car which competes with a company full of people who are focused on designing the ultimate performance car (and have been designing performance cars for this niche market since the 1930's)?

Whether Porsche or Ferrari owners consider "Audi" when making a purchasing decision is depent upon the owner really... but you can't say that the Audi R8 is NOT competition for Porsche and Ferrari.

"What we have here is market segmentation where Nissan is not the competitor but the GTR is." Hmmm.. this just makes me laugh. That's like not giving the credit to to the manufactuer that they deserve.

"They will develop eye catching, PR generating cars to help develop their brand and sell more Sentra's." I don't see the correlation here. How is competiting with Porsche & Ferrari going to help Nissan sell more Sentras? This goes back what you said yourself.. "market segmentation." If you were a buyer looking for a Sentra.. why would you care whether Nissan produced a car that could compete with Ferrari or Porsche? I.E. When some rich family goes into a car dealership as they shop for a Mercedes, do you think they care the Mercedes Benz CLK GTR competed with a McLaren F1 in the LeMans circuit? I highly doubt the entire family would even know about either car, much less care about their competition in the performance car market.