Planet 9

I've read about some problems that people generally have on the racetrack with the Cayman reliability. I've also read that Porsche don't consider the Cayman a track car and if you want a track car buy a GT3.

What I would like to know is how the Cayman holds up compared to the "track" cars like the GT3s. Not in laptimes or handling but in reliability. Surely the GT3s and any other "track" car also has components that often fail under track conditions. All cars that race need heavy maintenance don't they? And if so what exactly makes the one car better to use on track than the other in terms of reliability? Is the maintenance really less on these "track" cars then on the Caymans?

Keep in mind that I'm using the GT3 as an example of a track car but I'd like to hear how it compares to track cars in general.

Timely and interesting post.

I'm was considering moving from a fairly heavily modified CS to a Super Cup car. I mentioned it to a friend who had such a car for 9 years and recently sold everything - car, enclosed trailer, diesel tow pick-up. He said the reason he got out was the high cost of maintenance and routinely used up parts like brakes and tires.

In 9 years years he had to do 2 complete engine and trans rebuilds. This type engine rebuild runs $20K or more. Probably 3-4K for the trans. The basics like 2-3K in tires per year.

This kind of stopped me in my thought process and I'm continuing to soldiering on with the CS. That and the fact that moving to such a car would wipe out almost all my sources of cash which when you are retired and live in the market conditions of the past 6 months is a very scarer thing.

My pasted 9 years in the performance game looks something like this; I do probably 12-15 DE days and 20 auto crosses per year :

set of brake pads per year
rotors every 5-6 years
set of tires per year
3 complete rack back power steering systems under warranty (2 different cars)
no trans or engine rebuilds

Except for the power steering problem that probably the same thing it's going to cost you to run a GT3 and less than the cost of running a Cup or Super Cup car.

Hope this helps.

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Augie

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Most things are subjective, and have many variables. When you say that a GT3 is a track car, Yes Porsche originally built the GT3RS as a Homologation Special to allow that particular car to have the minimum “Road Cars” built to allow it to compete in F.I.A races but even then it’s a far cry from a standard GT3RS to what they actually use on track.
No the Cayman is a road car, but people do use it of course on track. In both Italy and France they now have a Cayman Cup series with a minimal amount of modifications allowed.
Most people will only be able to answer you question as to what they have actually done. My car has done maybe 15 Trackdays here in the UK, which consist of maybe 200 miles per day. In that time I have gone through 4 sets of pads 2 sets of rotors, little oil usage no water usage 1 front strut and one driveshaft. I think it all depends how far you want to go and how competitive you want to be. If you actually want to compete against all comers, then you’ll need to spend serious amounts of money (as in every type of Motorsport) on the other hand, if like me, your happy just to go out and enjoy both yourself and the car you drive, then cost can be kept right down. The old adage is the harder you drive the more you’ll have to replace. Again an obvious example is, If you repeatedly buzz your engine on down shifts, expect to replace it sooner than if you don’t.
I’ve come out of Rallying for the last 30-35 years and I don’t think any of the standard Subaru or Mitsubishi’s would take the abuse that I’ve given my Cayman on Track and I’m taking in here in the suspension department. Even a group N Mitsi with stronger suspension bushes would still feel “baggy” after the way I drive my car on track. The Cayman on the drive home after a hard day on track feels just as tight as before the day began. Very Impressive in my mind………But you must also take into account cost of a Cayman £44k Cost of a GT3RS £95k….you can do a bunch of mods to a Cayman for the difference ??

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Serious track use = serious money for maintenance, no matter which car.

Almost every guy I know who tracks his car regularly in our area has been through some sort of major mechanical rebuild or overhaul at some point, regardless of the make/model car being used. Just a fact of life, if you punish a car, it will punish your wallet!

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K-Man S

Shhhhhh.... don't tell my wife that! I've been telling her DEs and Autocross don't hurt the car except for wearing out tires and brake pads (cheap maintenance items in the grand scale of things) a little quicker. If she reads this thread, I'll be banned from these events from now on.

The only trouble I've had is the power steering melt-down (Porsche design flaw where the power steering fluid gets very hot and can cause power steering rack faliure when the car is pushed at track speeds), and this can be minimized by installation of an underdrive pully (about $500) or power steering cooler (about $1,000). Other than that, it's just been more frequent brake flushes, brake pads, and tires. So far (knock on wood...)

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So I gather that apart from racing in a different class there is no real difference between racing the Cayman and a car that is designed for track use?

It depends on how you define "designed for track use". Something like a 997 GT3 is advertised/marketed as a "track car" but honestly they break things just as often as a Cayman does, the difference between the two is much smaller than say a cup car or actual race car. With an actual race car yes they are designed to take more punishment in areas, but they are also designed to be easily rebuilt and have parts swapped in and out all the time because that's just a fact of life/racing.

Succinctly there have been people regularly taking their Cayman to autcross and DE events without any issues at all. There are others racing them in PCA Club Racing or other similar venues who have had problems with various components or have had to strengthen certain things to take more punishment. The Cayman is going to be better than 98%+ of all other cars that you could walk into a dealership and buy and go take to the track. The ones that are better most likely cost more and the "better" difference is very slight/marginal at best.

Here is a quote for you:

"The Cayman should be on everyone's TOP 10 list of cars that you can drive on the street and take to the track on weekends"

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K-Man S

In your OP you asked about track use - only now do you mention racing. These are totally different categories of use. The difference between DE and racing is equivalent to the difference between DE and driving your grandmother to church in a minivan.

Since I decided to learn how to drive last year I have 15 track days, each with about 1.5 to 2 hours track time in 20 to 30 minute sessions. While I have spent money on mods (not necessary - the Cayman is great from the factory, I just have fun messing with it), I have not spent a dime fixing it due to breakage at the track. This includes three missed shifts, with level 11 (N.B. Spinal Tap reference) overrevs. Oil analysis says the engine is happy, and it runs great.

Racing is brutal. Racing to win is incredibly brutal (some people do go out and float at the back, just to say "I race..."). If you are racing to win in any car, expect to break it in a very expensive way every other race. If you want to learn to drive very fast on a track (my current objective), I think you can expect the Cayman to be a great platform and hold together. If you want to know about the Cayman as a racing platform, I have no experience - and only members of the very small group who race them do!(speak up, racers - maybe 6-12 on the whole board?)

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....its even SAFETY YELLOW! What could be more practical???

Racing, DE, Autocross, whatever track use. Extreme use of Cayman vs Built for Track Car like the GT3s. From what's been posted here I think the only + side of a "track" car are that the may be a little easier to work on.

I think you are still misunderstanding. The GT3 is not a "built for track car" it is a standard 911 with some extra goodies thrown in that may or may not make it more reliable on the track. It certainly probably makes it more fun than a standard 911, but a GT3 is NOT a race car and while arguably the best "track" version of the 911 out of the box (some dispute that and claim the new GT2 is even better for the track than the GT3 - see Excellence mag for one), it isn't more track worthy than say a spec Miata.

The GT3 isn't a "race" car, it is the Porsche marketed track enthusiast car for people who want to drive in a DE or Autocross. If they want to go racing it might be a starting point, but they are going to have to make mods to turn it into a "race" car.

Is the GT3 easier to work on? Than what? A Cayman? I dunno, depends on what you need to do, ever try to access the top of the engine on a GT3? The Cayman has the GT3 beat hands down in that department.

Are there pluses to a GT3 vs. a Cayman? Absolutely, Porsche gives you the old split case motor (was a plus vs M97, I say it is a minus vs the new DFI motors), bigger brakes, more adjustable suspension and in Europe offers a roll cage and GT3 lightweight seats. (New GT2 seats may actually be better btw). Of course this all comes at a price of nearly double the MSRP of the Cayman S. Could you mod a Cayman S to be competitive and as reliable on the track as a GT3 for less money? I think so, but it is probably going to be close depending on what you do for power.

The GT3 is not a race car, the Cayman is not a race car so we really shouldn't compare either of them to race cars.

I'm foggy as to what the original question was now... must be late, and I have to be up early to drive a Jaguar...

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K-Man S

Don't read too much into it. I only use the GT3s as an example because I thought that Porsche considers it a track car. I did say GT3s, meaning all the GT3 models. If the GT3s are not a "built for track" car and not a "race" car then I am confused because I figure that they are? At least the RSR and the Cup are?

Anyway I didn't mean to get so in depth about the GT3s. And I don't want to split hairs about racing definitions. I've heard that statement about getting yourself a GT3 if you wanna go on the track several times and it's usually the answer Porsche gives when the Cayman doesn't hold up in terms of reliability.

Let me put it this way, if I wanted to go on the racetrack regularly for whatever reason, I have a list of cars to choose from. Reliability is the biggest factor because I want all I can get out of the track days and I want as little hassle in between track days as possible. From what I've heard Porsche might say that the Cayman is no good for this and I should rather get one of the GT3s? Or would they not?

I think this is a pretty good question (coming from someone who has never tracked a car). A number of people have asked me when am I going to track my CS with comments like....."When are you taking that car to the track because it's perfect for it?" I have watched all of the threads here discussing oil starvation, power steering coolers, motorsports VOS, etc. I have come to believe that tracking a Cayman (by 'tracking' I mean something more than an occasional DE) means investing in some number of modifications to improve reliability (and perhaps safety). If you do not make these investments, you risk problems occurring where expenditures of time and money become necessary whether you like it or not.

That being said, I also believe the total expenditure of money adds up to considerably less than what a GT3 will cost, and the driving experience between the two will also be much different. How these factors play against each other is a purely personal choice. As my CS gets older, I intend to take it to the track and I am happy others are blazing the trail on these cars so I have a clear idea of what is necessary and the problems I might encounter.

Here in the UK, a few of us have "thrown" money at modifications including, deep sumps, smaller crank pulley, better pads, competition brake fluid, Stainless hoses, LSD, Race tyres, Mapping upgrades, bigger throttle bodies, 3rd rad for better cooling etc etc.
We have one guy (JackWood) that runs his car stock (or did) for quite a number of track days, without any issues or problems (and he was still "havin a go" and having lots of fun) only recently has he added a Quaife ATB Diff, comp Brake fluid, pagid pads and a geometry set up. Now he's quicker and having more fun.
So I still think it all depends on how serious / competitive you want to be. A standard Cayman will take the abuse for the occasional track day, if you buzz the engine on the other hand is doesn’t really matter what mods you've added, it's still gonna hurt.

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I still have not decided how I want to reply to this thread, but here is the first installment:

Cars break, cars on the track break more often, and cars used in racing will break quite frequently. This, of course, is generally a function of intended use, preparation, maintenance, etc. and applies to all cars.

After reading many threads on how crappy the Cayman reliability is I have come to the conclusion that most of us just do not get it. Many never will. The Cayman is an amazing street car that with few exceptions is likely to give many years of trouble free service. The Cayman was not designed, or priced, to be a track car and certainly not a race car. How much is a GT3 Cup or RSR? By the way, these cars break too and are much more expensive to fix when they do. And do not even try to connect your beloved iPod to an RSR.

Street cars and race cars are not the same thing, period. I am new to racing and do not claim to know near enough about the demands placed upon a car, but have learned enough to know that the stock Cayman is not a race car, nor a reliable Time Trial car, but it is a great car (save the PS system) for hours of DE-type enjoyment. AX will not hurt the car at all so go do it, all of you, Michelin will make more tires.

A quick read of the above makes me think I am heading off on a rant, so I will just focus on one point for this chapter – engine reliability for heavy track/TT/racing use.

We complain of oil starvation, etc. but how many of us have actually maintained our engine in a manner appropriate for its duty cycle?

By proper maintenance I do not mean oil changes and air filters, but complete tear down, inspection, and replacement of vital parts in the style of even modestly funded race teams. For example, my engine failed at 46K miles, with approximately 5K+ on track (time trials and racing). This translates into about 900 or so street hours and 60+ track hours on the engine. I am told that race teams generally tear down the engines and replace the bearings at 40 to 50 hours, and these are engines that are megabucks and designed for racing. Is it reasonable for use to expect a greater lifespan from our engines?

And BTW, these are engines in cars driven by people who know how to drive, not rookies and amateurs like most of us here. We are not easy on our engines. We regularly miss shifts, over rev on downshifts, and are generally just not that smooth. Add to that the fact that our engines carry a higher ancillary load from AC, emission controls, heavier weight, etc. and it is a wonder that they last as long as they do. Are there problems with the M97 engine? Absolutely, but from talking to many folks who race the older engines you learn that they had their problems too.

Also, I am not sure how much difference all of these modifications make. My engine, with the deep sump and improved VOS (works great for ingestion), lasted exactly one race weekend longer than CCC4321s engine that was run without either of these devices. I did have more street miles, and maybe a few more track days, but …

So, we are trying to improve the new engine. Modification to the crank, new heat treating, better rods, etc. to try and improve reliability, but I will still likely tear it down at the end of next year to check it out.

More to come later.

Cheers,

I agree with Mr. Krokodil's near rant above. One of the most important things he talks about is that track reliability depends on many, many interlocking factors, and can't really be predicted with any credibility - the driver, the track configurations, the level of modifications are all factors.

I think the Cayman, right out of the box, is a good car to take to the track, but it's not a "track car." The Cayman, like all cars, and most mechanical things is designed with a design and mechanical specification that determines its "performance envelope," if you will. If the stock car is taken and driven on the track within it's performance envelope, which can be up to 10/10ths of that envelope, it will probably more often than not be fine. But, a lot of owners want the car to go faster through the turns so we put on R-compound tires. Now the car is beginning to break through that original envelope. When the outside edges of those expensive tires begin to wear out more than the rest of the tire, more negative camber is in order. Now there's even more grip... then slicks are added, and now there's LOTS more grip, which causes the car to lurch even further outside the original design spec. It's now doing many, many things it was not originally designed to do. It's pulling way more Gs in the corners, which effects load on the wheel bearings and other suspension components, oil distribution in the motor and many other wear items. If you throw a new-to-the-sport driver into the mix, smoothness and driver error (over-revs, etc) clearly enter into pushing this envelope, too. Even track configuration can play a part - All of the guys from Los Angeles who race with POC like Krokodil (and have had trouble with their motors) spend a lot of time on Willow Springs - lots of long, very high speed sweepers, let's not even talk about the high-banked ovals at Fontanta and Las Vegas. Add that to the brewing cocktail of more grip, etc. and the design envelope is now being ripped open even more. Even adding a roll bar/cage and a harness system adds to this mix - now the car is more stiff - without some of the flex of the original, and being strapped in allows the driver to drive the car faster, too. To mitigate some of these factors we put in deeper oil pans, coolers for the power steering, take driving instruction, etc. but these are not going to put that car back into, nor enlarge that original envelope. I'm sure you can see where this is going...

As far as the GT3 goes, it has its own design spec/performance envelope - one that's bigger and more track-oriented, but it's still not a "track car" either.

Bottom line - when you exceed the envelope on a regular basis, and purposely add modifications to exceed that original design spec, then you take your chances. I applaud Krokodil for his attitude - realizing that he's routinely asking the car to do a lot more than it was originally designed to do, and not bitching about it when the car, or parts of the car say "no mas..."

I should add that I do track my Cayman S, driving in the advanced/instructor groups, and have done probably 30 some-odd track days with it over the last 3 years, and the only modification to the car is using R-comp tires - I used Michelin Sport Cups the last two years and have switched to Nitto NT-01s this year. Otherwise the car is bone stock. I drive the car hard, and most would say I'm pretty fast - (2:50s at Spring Mountain, 2:10s at Thunderhill, and 1:45s at Laguna Seca). I've also done probably 40 or so autocrosses, and have had nothing go wrong with my car so far... no power steering issues, no oil smoking to speak of, nothing.

brad

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+1 to both the above comments !

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+100 TO BOTH COMMENT AS WELL and I think a lot of people should take them to heart, maybe get them in the FAQ somewhere...

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K-Man S

The posts from Krokodil and Beez above concisely and cogently lay out this issue. Well done! I think I'll continue my AX focus. I'm learning the car, improving my driving and having a blast all with a stock car. Thanks guys! I love this site.

Craig

Yeah good stuff guys, thanks for that.