Planet 9

**drvreg** · #21 06-25-2007, 12:44 AM

Thanks for posting the video Ken, I watched it a few times. What track was that? ...can you post a track map. It'll make talking about the track a lot better.

I'm probably gonna suffer for this, but here it goes anyway!

In turn 5 when you went off, you can see that you entered the corner a hair-early and clearly miss the apex. (you were distracted by the fuel light) What happens next is that you seem to fight the car as it plows through the corner. It seems to me that you tried to correct the early apex by adding even MORE steering input. (you didn't think would actually work did you?

) The front-end responds with more noise and little else. As instructors, we both know (and teach) that the only way to salvage anything out of that turn would be to unwind wheel a little to let the front bite and, go two-off as controlled as possible. I think you got really lucky there Ken When you went off, you had a LOT of steering input still dialed into the corner - that could have ended badly. You KNEW you were going off long before you actually went off. When I know I'm going to have an off, I like to get that wheel straightened out a lot more so that it won't "hook".

While I'm digging a hole and pulling on my nomex anti-flame suit, I've gotta say something about your hand position! Personally, I'm not a big fan of "shifty-hands". In your video, I can see in a couple of corners where your hand position seems to be preventing you from correcting/finessing your way through the corner. I'd like to see you keep your hands fixed. I think a different hand position might help you finesse the car on corner exit. To my eyes, you sometimes have slight tendency to pinch the car a little on exit. ...of course, without being in the car I can't really tell for sure how much, or if you should unwind a little more on exit.

For the record, I have a bug up my *ss about hand position because of my personal experiences. I started in motorsport as an autocrosser & naturally I was the master of shifty-hands! I even mastered the all important "catch & release" technique with the wheel. I used to use shifty hands at the track, but nearly had a wreck at Sebring. While shifty-handing through a corner, I had the wheel ripped from my left-hand in the middle of turn 17. I momentarily lost the wheel with BOTH hands. (look Ma, know hands!) I was very lucky to catch the wheels and correct the slide. From that incident on, I eliminated the shifty hands technique!

All that stuff aside, damn fine video! Fun to watch, great quality, really enjoyed it.

I'm heading to Sebring next weekend. I promise to post a little video and you can give it right back to me!

**K-Man S** · #22 06-25-2007, 12:56 AM

drvreg,
I expected it to grab at any moment and save me of course!

more on that later, dinner calls...

**K-Man S** · #23 06-25-2007, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by drvreg

Thanks for posting the video Ken, I watched it a few times. What track was that? ...can you post a track map. It'll make talking about the track a lot better.

It is Heartland Park Topeka in the large 2.5m configuration, you can get maps at Heartland Park Topeka : Where the Best Come to Play!

I'm probably gonna suffer for this, but here it goes anyway!

In turn 5 when you went off, you can see that you entered the corner a hair-early and clearly miss the apex. (you were distracted by the fuel light) What happens next is that you seem to fight the car as it plows through the corner. It seems to me that you tried to correct the early apex by adding even MORE steering input. (you didn't think would actually work did you?

)

Actually what I was trying to do was set the car at a a particular angle which I wasn't far from, my goal was to run both left side tires off at worst, and at best it would catch enough to put me on the rumble strip only. What I did not want to do was drive off the track 'straight' or perpendicular to the track as there would have been no recovery.

The front-end responds with more noise and little else. As instructors, we both know (and teach) that the only way to salvage anything out of that turn would be to unwind wheel a little to let the front bite and, go two-off as controlled as possible. I think you got really lucky there Ken When you went off, you had a LOT of steering input still dialed into the corner - that could have ended badly. You KNEW you were going off long before you actually went off. When I know I'm going to have an off, I like to get that wheel straightened out a lot more so that it won't "hook".

Yes, under most circumstances that is absolutely true, however, my goal was to do what I did, drive off course only enough to recover what I need to recover and keep moving forward, I didn't want to go left. Watch as I ease it off at the end holding to the last moment trying to adjust the angle enough to point me where I want to go even though I know I won't have track under me to take me there. Had I been elsewhere on that track or had the off track conditions say been muddy or something I wouldn't have done it that way. I made a calculated gamble that's true, but one that I was fairly certain the odds were on my side for or I wouldn't have made it. Besides I hadn't been off track in awhile, maybe that line was faster?

While I'm digging a hole and pulling on my nomex anti-flame suit, I've gotta say something about your hand position! Personally, I'm not a big fan of "shifty-hands". In your video, I can see in a couple of corners where your hand position seems to be preventing you from correcting/finessing your way through the corner. I'd like to see you keep your hands fixed.

No nomex suit needed, if I had longer arms I probably would shift my hands less, but I don't so I guess I have "shifty" hands. If you could point out where you thought it was preventing me from finessing a corner I'm all for pointers to help me correct problems. My car really doesn't require much change to the steering input to make a significant change at the wheels and direction of the car, in fact Joe Ennett remarked just that when he drove the car that he thought something was wrong because the steering reacted so quickly.

I think a different hand position might help you finesse the car on corner exit. To my eyes, you sometimes have slight tendency to pinch the car a little on exit. ...of course, without being in the car I can't really tell for sure how much, or if you should unwind a little more on exit.

Oh I'm sure from time to time I do pinch a corner a bit on exit that I should let unwind more, and that's just me being sloppy if I do or else I thinking about trying something else for some reason, hard to say.

For the record, I have a bug up my *ss about hand position because of my personal experiences. I started in motorsport as an autocrosser & naturally I was the master of shifty-hands! I even mastered the all important "catch & release" technique with the wheel. I used to use shifty hands at the track, but nearly had a wreck at Sebring. While shifty-handing through a corner, I had the wheel ripped from my left-hand in the middle of turn 17. I momentarily lost the wheel with BOTH hands. (look Ma, know hands!) I was very lucky to catch the wheels and correct the slide. From that incident on, I eliminated the shifty hands technique!

I know personal experince plays into it a lot and so far my hand technique has worked for me, but at some point if I decide to go further my next investment is more time with one on one coaching with some pros to help make me better. I'm more worried about my footwork to be honest and my tendency to simply match rpm's instead of heel-toeing. I also have a fear that if I really start to get good, I might end up wanting to club race and invest even more time and $$$ into it. If I were 20 years younger, sure no problem, can't really do that today.

All that stuff aside, damn fine video! Fun to watch, great quality, really enjoyed it.

I'm heading to Sebring next weekend. I promise to post a little video and you can give it right back to me!

I never pick apart other people's driving unless I am in the passenger seat with them.

or at least I try not to. Speaking of video though I'm going to post one where you could jump all over me for a couple of different things, like not having cord in the power socket, but my goal was to do some filming of a particular car and then I got those 2 check engine lights so the run wasn't at all like I had planned. I like it for the other cars though and seeing what they do, not so much for my driving.

Here is a link, right click and save-as as always...

http://www.planet-9.com/files/Hear...07GT3Chase.wmv

**zedd06** · #24 06-25-2007, 02:59 AM

I want to grow up to be like K-man S.

The videos are thrilling and sell caymans. I suspect that PCNA & the home office love the video promotions of the CS capabilities from a real customer.

K-manS.....more more......

mlpor · #25 06-25-2007, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by drvreg

Thanks for posting the video Ken, ...

For the record, .... I used to use shifty hands at the track, but nearly had a wreck at Sebring. While shifty-handing through a corner, I had the wheel ripped from my left-hand in the middle of turn 17. I momentarily lost the wheel with BOTH hands. ...

I'm heading to Sebring next weekend. I promise to post a little video and you can give it right back to me!

Yes, but come on, Turn #17 at Sebring is such a low speed (NOT) corner

FWIW, I'd be interested in knowing what kind of "peak" corner entry speed (say, when you clear the back straight wall and can start looking for the apex &/or exit marks) in the Cayman, as say compared to one of the Panoz RS-GT school, or series cars.

Cheers

**K-Man S** · #26 06-25-2007, 04:10 AM

BTW I just re-watched the video myself to take note of shifty hands and I want to be clear that I don't ever just let the wheel rotate through both hands, at least one hand is always gripping the wheel as I am repositioning the other hand, apologies if the video made it seem as if I was letting go with both hands and being "shifty"

Godless · #27 06-25-2007, 07:58 AM

great quality. go go go go!

**drvreg** · #28 06-25-2007, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by K-Man S

I want to be clear that I don't ever just let the wheel rotate through both hands, at least one hand is always gripping the wheel as I am repositioning the other hand

I recently drove with an instructor who practiced "catch & release" in the car. The first time I saw him do it I said., "You did NOT just let go the wheel did you?"

I thought he was just hot-dogging. Next lap, same corner, same damn thing. On corner exit, he momentarily lets go of the wheel and he catches it when it spins back around. ...no more rides with that guy!

That's NOT how Ken drives! I hope I didn't give that impression.
What I observed is that you sometimes momentarily would hold the wheel steady while you repositioning your right hand. If you had both hands on the wheel - thumbs locked into the steering wheel indents - you could unwind the wheel in one single continuous smooth motion.

If I recall, there's one corner in the video where you were correcting an oversteer on corner-exit. At the moment when you need to be correcting your right hand is in motion and is a little late to the party.

Motorsport is a game on inches. The better you get the smaller your gains are and the more difficult they are to make. It's easy to drop seconds a lap off your time when your a student coming up through the ranks. After a few years your gains are measured in tenths of a second - not full seconds. Your hand position won't knock seconds a lap off your time, but might help you to better control your car and maybe make you smoother by a fraction. ....and smoother is faster!

**lexicon** · #29 06-25-2007, 03:25 PM

That's some damn good driving Ken. Looks like you were driving much harder once you got past that pesky 911.

**FLORIDA CAYMAN** · #30 06-26-2007, 01:11 AM

That video is the best I have ever seen. I am doing my first ever D E at Sebring in July and after seeing your video I can't wait.

jphhock · #31 06-26-2007, 01:55 AM

Thanks for the "exciting" video......awesome......

Johnny H.

zamalek · #32 06-26-2007, 02:50 AM

that's a fantastic film ken, that legendary boxer sound system is to die for, who needs bose. and by the way, great piece of driving, shifty hands & all.

Gator Bite · #33 06-26-2007, 11:32 AM

Drvreg,

Can you define "Shifty Hands' and 'Pinching a Corner' for us track newbs?

**drvreg** · #34 06-26-2007, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Gator Bite

Can you define "Shifty Hands' and 'Pinching a Corner' for us track newbs?

"Shifty Hands" - A hand-over-hand steering technique where the driver repositions one hand while the other holds the wheel steady with the other.

I like both hands on the wheel, thumbs in the indent. (That's what Porsche put those 'notches' in your steering wheel for!)

"Pinching a Corner" - occurs when the driver doesn't fully unwind/track-out at corner exit and/or adds throttle while still completing a turn.

In drivers ed we often coach corner exit with the analogy that there's a link between your steering wheel & gas pedal. As you unwind the wheel on corner exit you squeeze on the throttle. You don't want one input (steering or gas) to get ahead of the other - they should be smooth & proportional.

An extreme example would be the "crank & stomp" technique some students try out. They crank the wheel hard to make the turn & stomp the gas pedal. ....that's an eTicket to weeds for sure!

**drvreg** · #35 06-26-2007, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by FLORIDA CAYMAN

I am doing my first ever D E at Sebring in July and after seeing your video I can't wait.

There's a lot of events at Sebring next month - which one are you going to?

July 7/8 with PBOC
July 22 with Citrus Region
or Gold Coast Region July 28/29

I'm confirmed for the Citrus region event and I'm hosting the Gold Coast Region event. Although I haven't signed up for the PBOC event, I'll almost certainly be there.

**K-Man S** · #36 06-26-2007, 01:50 PM

drvreg,
What is you solution for when the wheel has to be turned so far that your arms would cross over each other if you simply held them both firmly attached to the steering wheel? At some point the ability to hold the steering wheel firmly is less in an arms crossed hands planted format than even one arm with a solid grip while other hand shifts format IMHO.

**drvreg** · #37 06-26-2007, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by K-Man S

drvreg,
What is you solution for when the wheel has to be turned so far that your arms would cross over each other if you simply held them both firmly attached to the steering wheel? At some point the ability to hold the steering wheel firmly is less in an arms crossed hands planted format than even one arm with a solid grip while other hand shifts format IMHO.

Dude if you're ever that crossed up, you're probably already in a spin

and your hand position is the least of your worries!

That's not to say that there's NEVER a reason to shifty-hand. If I have a very tight turn, I will PREPOSITION my hands before the turn. That way I won't have to go hand-over-hand while IN the turn. However, that means that when I track out & I'm driving straight, my hands will be in the "wrong" position. Once I've straightened out, I'll reposition my hands back to 3:00 & 9:00. ...again, the goal is to have both hands locked into position and not moving while in the corner so that I can effectively correct/counter-steer through the corner.

In the real world I find that I rarely need to use the pre-positioning technique. It's really only required if you have a corner with an angle greater than 90 degrees. Most corners just aren't that tight. How about your tracks? Got anything with really severe corners?

I was watching some video from '05 and back then I used to pre-position my hands for the hairpin at Sebring. (90 degrees) These days, I go through that corner at just about full-lock. (left hand at nearly 3:00 and right hand at nearly 9:00) Same thing in turn 10. Any correction I'll need to make in the that corner is going to be in an unwind direction, I won't be trying to add more steering input in those corners.

Ken you might try adjusting your seating/wheel position. Perhaps pull the wheel and inch closer to you. We both have GT3 seats and we can't tilt the bucket forward.

**Craig@Rennstore.com** · #38 06-26-2007, 11:40 PM

Wow, that had to be the highest quality video I have ever seen. Nice.

Drove in a Viper on track while instructing a few years ago, man are they an ungratifying machine.
Sounds like a UPS truck, feels huge, even in a straight line they are a bit blah.

Porsches rule for track use!

**drvreg** · #39 06-27-2007, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by K-Man S

What is you solution for when the wheel has to be turned so far that your arms would cross over each other if you simply held them both firmly attached to the steering wheel? At some point the ability to hold the steering wheel firmly is less in an arms crossed hands planted format than even one arm with a solid grip while other hand shifts format IMHO.

To my point about having your arms at nearly full lock, here's a video clip I whipped up showing my full-lock with full-control in traffic.

22mb .WMV Video Clip Right Click, Save As

**K-Man S** · #40 06-27-2007, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by drvreg

To my point about having your arms at nearly full lock, here's a video clip I whipped up showing my full-lock with full-control in traffic.

22mb .WMV Video Clip Right Click, Save As

Ok and to my point at times in that video your left arm (9 o'clock starting position) is all the way over at 3 o'clock, 180 degrees around the wheel and in a sense upside down. Unless you have wrists that swivel 360 degrees I just don't see how the grip on the wheel can be as effective against sudden movements or strong feedback through the wheel as a pair of shifted hands could/would be. Could you unwind faster? Yeah probably so. I also watched you take your hand off the wheel for awhile at times for shifting, and I know I'm guilty of that at times but I really try to get it off and back on the wheel asap, a couple of times you seemed to be lingering on the ole shifter. Last, but not least, what did you remove your left hand for that one time? Also passing on the left and right? that's crazy stuff!!!

BTW, most videos I can find on wheel work by say Rohl and others seem to be defined by the wheel, small round wheels lead to easy no-shift-the-hands turns whereas larger diameter wheels seem to require some shifting at times even from the pros. Obviously track and turn dependent as well. I do concur that I need to experiment with seat positions more and see if I can alleviate some of my "shiftiness"

I'm still not taking my left hand off the wheel completely to take a cel phone call like you in that Sebring video though...

Speaking of your video again, is the track really that rough or is it the camera?