Planet 9

lisocayman · #1 05-29-2009, 01:52 PM

I wanted to see what people's thoughts are on how strong the cayman roof will be in a roll over? I track my car frequently and currently only have a harness bar. I'm thinking about getting a roll bar but haven't made the decision.

The cayman seems like it has stronger pillars, stronger maybe than 996's? The question is does the cayman need a rollbar? It seems like a lot of people only use a harness bar, at least according to my poll.

What are people's thoughts?

wpmjr · #2 05-29-2009, 04:34 PM

why not get the roll bar, I say

FrankinCayman · #3 05-29-2009, 04:47 PM

my wife would not let me go out on the track without it!

lisocayman · #4 05-29-2009, 04:56 PM

I'm definitely leaning towards getting the Heigo but wanted to see peoples opinions. I've rolled once before, long story but it wasn't a track car. Actually it was a truck and I was fine but it was american steel.

Anyways wp I see you don't have one although you say get one, are you thinking of getting one?

**KS-CS** · #5 05-29-2009, 05:45 PM

We all have different levels of risk tolerance - a lot may depend on how hard you drive, and on what kind of tracks. I would feel safer with a roll-bar, but I guess I am taking the calculated risks that: a) I won't roll my car, and b) If I do roll, the roof should be sufficient. The issue of late has been the $$ required not only for the roll bar, but track seats, harnesses, etc.

That being said, every time I see the video of the GT3 crash in the following link, it makes me think I should make the investment:

http://www.planetporsche.net/cayman-...tml#post362301

mooty · #6 05-29-2009, 07:19 PM

c,

i rolled before too, not on track. yeah, i was once young and very stupid. i didn't die in the roll over, in fact other than losing my glasses, i had no injuries (porsche also). but i sure dont want to temp fate again. roll bar wont guarantee your safety, but imho, it's better having it than not having it.

oh, and you are FAST. if you do go off, it will be a BIG off.

greycroc · #7 05-29-2009, 08:39 PM

Porsche Cars are very rigid and can withstand some hard impacts. Check out some impacts.

Porsche Cayman Crash Photos

***DaveN007*** · #8 05-30-2009, 01:43 PM

I would some thoughts for everyone's consideration:

Some things that make you safer on a track might kill you on the road. Your un-helmeted head, as well as the rest of your body appreciate soft things that will allow for slower deceleration as they absorb an impact...like air bags.

Once you start going down the path of ripping and replacing steering wheels, seats, etc. you lose street protection. Roll bars are not skull friendly. Try to get/ fabricate flat surface covers...then pad them.

You need to be strapped (trapped) in securely to prevent whacking your head on hard parts you install for track safety. Are you going to get a fuel cell? Are you comfortable with the idea of being upside down with gasoline running all over you? Waiting for the fire department to come?

Watch this video:

On the street, a safety crew might now get there this quickly. (Are these guys angels of mercy, or what? I am going to make it a point of thanking the safety crew at the beginning of every DE for doing what they do.) The idea of sitting trapped, upside down in a Cayman with a regular fuel tank...

He is in there for a while at the mercy of his safety prep.

I wonder if race drivers would share my instinct that doing a "half way" track safety conversion just serves to provide a false sense of security that will make you more likely to push harder, when you really don't have the protection you need.

I want my airbags, because my car isn't dedicated for the track.

Not intended as a criticism of any of the choices anyone has made. (And not directed at you, Craig) The fact that I drive on tracks at all makes me just as "guilty" as anyone else.

**Andy (Portland, OR)** · #9 05-30-2009, 09:10 PM

I didn't see it, but Pete Stoppani (Sleepless) told me of a guy driving a CS at Pacific Raceways in who lifted in T1 (a high speed downhill kink) and rolled. Pete says the roof was flattened, but miraculously the driver was only slightly injured.

Andy

lisocayman · #10 05-30-2009, 10:04 PM

Thanks for the info Andy.

Dave - I agree with you, a cage is a big no no in a street car. The bolt in rollbars for the CS I think are safe if you have the GT3 seats. From what I've seen of the heigo rollbar I don't think you could contact the bar in an accident with the right seats since it's pretty far behind you. Related to half prepped cars, I think any mods for additional safety are a good idea. I'm going to push my car no matter what so I prefer to have a full fire suit, harnesses, the right seats, airbags, fire extinguisher and soon a roll bar. But that's just my opinion...

chris roby · #11 05-30-2009, 10:47 PM

The roof is strong I hit a 4 ft mound of mixed cement dirt and rocks at 45MPH did the old " Dukes of Hazard " and landed on top of the roof it had small 3'' impact dents that all. I,m lucky to be alive. Its was a 2006 cayman s.

***DaveN007*** · #12 05-30-2009, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by chris roby

The roof is strong I hit a 4 ft mound of mixed cement dirt and rocks at 45MPH did the old " Dukes of Hazard " and landed on top of the roof it had small 3'' impact dents that all. I,m lucky to be alive. Its was a 2006 cayman s.

Holy ****. Any pictures?

Sorry for the morbid curiosity.

jpccarguy · #13 05-31-2009, 07:05 AM

I've rolled a BMW on-track, landed on the roof, and walked away. Stock seats, belts, and no roll bar. I thought long and hard about upgrading my track car after that. But as I still drive on the street, the final decision: add a harness bar, street-legal Schroth street harnesses, and keep the stock seats. Cars are built better than you might think.

It's difficult to decide how many safety improvements to add, and yet not create more problems. I do think adding a roll bar to a street car raises issues issues if you don't wear a helmet whenever you drive it. I also agree that if you have a roll bar, you'd better have the right seats to go with; no point in having a bar if the seatbacks detach and bounce around inside the cockpit.

John

**Andy (Portland, OR)** · #14 05-31-2009, 07:22 AM

Here's my reply when my students ask (and anyone else who asks) which modifications they should do first: "safety -- if you kill yourself, the fun stops."

Remember, this is a response to someone in the paddock who is inquiring about doing performance upgrades and moving up the track pecking order, not the casual novice driver.

Here's what gives me some comfort: GT3 seats, 6-point Schroth, Heigo roll bar, Hans.

Andy

lisocayman · #15 05-31-2009, 05:08 PM

Andy - I'm looking to get the heigo roll bar added to my GT3 seats, harness bar, Schroth and HANS setup. Since you have this setup do you see any way for your head to come in contact with the heigo on the street? I haven't seen it in person but I think with the GT3 seats it shouldn't be able to happen. Could you maybe include a picture showing how far away from the GT3 seats are bar is?

Thanks

**Andy (Portland, OR)** · #16 05-31-2009, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by lisocayman

Andy - I'm looking to get the heigo roll bar added to my GT3 seats, harness bar, Schroth and HANS setup. Since you have this setup do you see any way for your head to come in contact with the heigo on the street? I haven't seen it in person but I think with the GT3 seats it shouldn't be able to happen. Could you maybe include a picture showing how far away from the GT3 seats are bar is?

Thanks

With the GT3 seats, there is no way for your head to hit the bar because the seat backs are taller than your head.

I am 5'11". The very top of my head is about an inch below the top of the seat back (the contact point, back of my head, is, of course, lower).

In my normal street driving position (which is farther back than my track driving position), the minimum distance between the seat back and any part of the bar is about 2-1/2" and that is at the upright.

Pushing the seat back as far as it can go, it contacts the bar at the vertical upright; the horizontal bar is still an inch or so behind the top of the seat.

With the seat all the way back, in contact with the upright, I can barely reach the pedals. My guess is that there is still as much, if not more, legroom than with the street seats because the seatback is so much thinner. I wouldn't bother finding one to sit in unless you are taller than 6'4" or so and that would be to know there is enough legroom for your driving style; still, your head would not hit the bar -- physically impossible.

I'll try to remember to post some pictures later.

**Andy (Portland, OR)** · #17 05-31-2009, 06:13 PM

The first two photos show the seat pushed all the way back against the upright. The third photo shows the seat in my approximate driving position.

***DaveN007*** · #18 05-31-2009, 06:50 PM

Excellent reference pics. I looks like as long as you securely strapped in, it certainly looks safe. What is involved in removing the harness bar for engine access?

lisocayman · #19 05-31-2009, 08:06 PM

Andy thanks for the photo's. Nice looking setup. Just a couple questions. Do you cross your harness straps before you thread them into your seats? I know HANS suggests this if the bar is more than 8 in's from your seat. I haven't decided if I'll keep my TC design harness bar in the car once I get the Heigo or if I'll more the mounts to the back where yours is. Keeping it in would add weight

**Andy (Portland, OR)** · #20 05-31-2009, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by lisocayman

Andy thanks for the photo's. Nice looking setup. Just a couple questions. Do you cross your harness straps before you thread them into your seats? I know HANS suggests this if the bar is more than 8 in's from your seat. I haven't decided if I'll keep my TC design harness bar in the car once I get the Heigo or if I'll more the mounts to the back where yours is. Keeping it in would add weight

Yes, they are crossed before they enter the seat for the reason you state: distance from the anchoring point, per HANS.

You may have noticed that I have a 2" belt on the left and a 3" belt on the right, so the passenger can be belted with or without a HANS. (I confirmed directly with HANS -- great customer service by the way -- that the 3" can be used with HANS, even though the 2" is the one denominated a HANS belt. In fact, all of the initial impact testing was done with a 3" belt, not a 2" belt. The 2" belt came later for comfort, not performance, reasons. The opposite is not true however: the 2" belt is not approved for use w/o a HANS.)

Andy