Planet 9

wpmjr · #1 06-11-2009, 08:56 PM

Can anyone describe to me the tangible benefits of SRP 4.1 for a car that already has sport chrono? For all I know the softronic package's largest plus may be doing the same throttle re-mapping, etc as sport chrono- which is worth it if you don't have sport chrono, IMO.

Mrd07 · #2 06-12-2009, 05:05 AM

Because you get 340Bhp

I have sports crono and 4.1 and 340Bhp and 300ft/lbs torque.

Makes for a quick little car.

Sports crono just changes the curve of the throttle pedal and lessens PSM a little , has nothing to do with remapping.

wpmjr · #3 06-12-2009, 08:05 AM

I haven't seen any dyno results reflecting anything like that. I found dynos that showed 6 hp-16 hp and no torque gains with losses below 4000 rpm. 6 peak hp and losses down low are not worth $900. Like I said, I'm not knocking the product because just delivering SC functions to a car that had none IS worth it IMO-but I've already got SC. And SC on makes the car feel like it just got ALOT stronger even though it hasn't. I have seen no data to support softronic's claim of 20hp on their website, and have read the Softronic guy eschew dynos in general in some posts, and hug dynos that favored his product in others.

What adds to the confusion is that if SRP really adds 20, then exhausts only add about 5 more, because I have seen multiple dynos of the combo that yielded around 25hp. $1700 and up for 5hp is definitely not worth it.

In the end dynos are the only thing we can go on, period. I'm trying to evaluate proven power mods for SCCA racing purposes, not for street thrills, and my budget for these things is limited. If it can't be reliably measured I don't need it. I get the variables and errors of dyno results, but using the same procedure on the same dyno as many have done ought to eliminate much of the problem. If dyno error is 10% even between runs of the same dyno, then no manufacturer should claim anything as they have no more basis than we do to ever know what their product does.

**Softronic** · #4 06-12-2009, 06:15 PM

Sport Chrono offers NO more HP while Softronic can add to it or raise it with HP.

We should also not confuse the SRP with a Softronic Flash. The SRP is the Softronic Race Plenum and comes with the P4.1 flash. A Softronic flash by itself is just that a flash with no Plenum. The gains are not the same nor are any dynos.

There are more dyno graphs on Softronic than ANY other tuner on this site.... There are also MANY on the plenum with the 4.1 etc and none on others . Should you want dyno graphs on this site then all you have to do is look. Some are at 16hp with a plenum while others are above 40hp and variations. I didn't make them and they were all done by customers and their shops.

I have posted actual controlled condition runs and gains.

The reason that I do not like rolling dyno's as a whole is they can be skewed and altered easily and are not a science. This is either done for the benefit of the company making the product or to try and discredit another. I have several from a company that claimed more HP than us with altered dyno graphs and a tune that they claimed was theirs and is actually ours. Currently this company is being served papers for prosecution.

I said I do not like them however I did not say they are all wrong. Rolling Dyno's are a tool and as like any tool have to be used correctly, most are not. Differant dyno's yield differant results. There are rolling dyno's that use the tires and ones that bolt on and also engine dyno's.

This is MRD07 posts on his dyno and was done factually. Would I say it looks to be acurate? Yes as per what I have stated and done on an SRP with the Softronic Flash.:

http://www.planetporsche.net/porsche...hp-result.html

Best,
Scott

Then again " The Softronic guy"

wpmjr · #5 06-13-2009, 06:22 AM

Thanks .

peter f cummiskey · #6 06-13-2009, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Softronic

Sport Chrono offers NO more HP while Softronic can add to it or raise it with HP.

We should also not confuse the SRP with a Softronic Flash. The SRP is the Softronic Race Plenum and comes with the P4.1 flash. A Softronic flash by itself is just that a flash with no Plenum. The gains are not the same nor are any dynos.

There are more dyno graphs on Softronic than ANY other tuner on this site.... There are also MANY on the plenum with the 4.1 etc and none on others . Should you want dyno graphs on this site then all you have to do is look. Some are at 16hp with a plenum while others are above 40hp and variations. I didn't make them and they were all done by customers and their shops.

I have posted actual controlled condition runs and gains.

The reason that I do not like rolling dyno's as a whole is they can be skewed and altered easily and are not a science. This is either done for the benefit of the company making the product or to try and discredit another. I have several from a company that claimed more HP than us with altered dyno graphs and a tune that they claimed was theirs and is actually ours. Currently this company is being served papers for prosecution.

I said I do not like them however I did not say they are all wrong. Rolling Dyno's are a tool and as like any tool have to be used correctly, most are not. Differant dyno's yield differant results. There are rolling dyno's that use the tires and ones that bolt on and also engine dyno's.

This is MRD07 posts on his dyno and was done factually. Would I say it looks to be acurate? Yes as per what I have stated and done on an SRP with the Softronic Flash.:

http://www.planetporsche.net/porsche...hp-result.html

Best,
Scott

Then again " The Softronic guy"

Maybe I am stupid, but i just don't get the math -- how does 283 rwhp become 340 bhp?

**Softronic** · #7 06-13-2009, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by peter f cummiskey

Maybe I am stupid, but i just don't get the math -- how does 283 rwhp become 340 bhp?

It would look like to me that the estimated Crank HP or BHP was at a factor of 16% so a car with this loss starting at 341BHP would end up at 286 RWHP or so.

peter f cummiskey · #8 06-13-2009, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Softronic

It would look like to me that the estimated Crank HP or BHP was at a factor of 16% so a car with this loss starting at 341BHP would end up at 286 RWHP or so.

Thank you...

Tomasz · #9 06-14-2009, 03:59 PM

If you are looking for a proven AX mod, that will add torque where you need it and can live with the added volume - get an exhaust. As you mention, the reported gains with SRP vary wildly and loss at low RPM also vary. Some show losses below 4,500 some 3,000, all show gains by redline.

But over time, it has been proven here that many if not all aftermarket exhausts deliver gains, and proportionally VERY large gains at 3,000 RPM or so.

What RPM range do you spend most of your time at? If its close to redline, I would say SRP will benefit you. If its in the midrange, exhaust will deliver better gains.

Of course you can also combine these two mods. And although I find the 341HP claim overly optimistic, it is directionally accurate.

If you are very concerned with power losses at low RPMs you can combine exhaust with Softronic or EPL or other software (software only, no plenum). It will get you few more ponies with no losses and raise your redline. Softronic will also upgrade you to SRP later if you chose to go there. For reference you can check out the plots provided by Tony at EPL.

Finally, I am showing similiar gains with my mods, but my G-Timer is unable to detect any difference. (In spite of dyno results that show otherwise.) I do not know if 30HP will be something that will make a difference at AX. Probably depending how experienced you are. You may get better performance gains by reducing your car's weight, and there is a VERY long post on that.

**Softronic** · #10 06-14-2009, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tomasz

If you are looking for a proven AX mod, that will add torque where you need it and can live with the added volume - get an exhaust. As you mention, the reported gains with SRP vary wildly and loss at low RPM also vary. Some show losses below 4,500 some 3,000, all show gains by redline.

But over time, it has been proven here that many if not all aftermarket exhausts deliver gains, and proportionally VERY large gains at 3,000 RPM or so.

What RPM range do you spend most of your time at? If its close to redline, I would say SRP will benefit you. If its in the midrange, exhaust will deliver better gains.

Of course you can also combine these two mods. And although I find the 341HP claim overly optimistic, it is directionally accurate.

If you are very concerned with power losses at low RPMs you can combine exhaust with Softronic or EPL or other software (software only, no plenum). It will get you few more ponies with no losses and raise your redline. Softronic will also upgrade you to SRP later if you chose to go there. For reference you can check out the plots provided by Tony at EPL.

Finally, I am showing similiar gains with my mods, but my G-Timer is unable to detect any difference. (In spite of dyno results that show otherwise.) I do not know if 30HP will be something that will make a difference at AX. Probably depending how experienced you are. You may get better performance gains by reducing your car's weight, and there is a VERY long post on that.

I believe all SRP with Flash P4.1 and exhaust have shown similar gains as the one posted above in which was a 40hp gain. These have very min if any losses below 3k. While exhaust have shown gains also many of them were tested with software such as Softronic's.

Your similar gains are also with headers, SRP and P4.1 flash.

This is the SRP P4.1 and Capristo In Australia and the car was also at 240hp and showed a gain of 36HP. There are also ones with Fabspeed , Borla and others on this site. There are also many that are not listed as SRP etc.

Best,
Scott

Pint of Brew · #11 06-16-2009, 04:18 AM

I'd also like to add that in the case of modded exhaust -and- SRP modification, the loss low -down is more than likely a by-product of reduced exhaust backpressure than anything to do with either the Softronic mapping or the Plenum: At low-RPM (ie: each cycle takes a long time) the highly-efficient exhaust cams exhaust all the gasses in a comparable time (in seconds) to high-RPM, but at low-RPM this time represents only a portion of the Power-stroke. This means that naturally-aspirated engines need a little bit of back-pressure to keep them driveable at low-range. Hence why F1 cars idle at 7000rpm, and it's so easy to stall supercars.

Hi-flow exhausts are very low back-pressure, so they help at high-RPM (where the stock exhaust's flow is maxed out) but they produce this dip in low-RPM as they're effectively too efficient.

Exhaust coment aside, the Softronic product range has remarkable support, has been thoroughly tested, has had zero failures, almost zero removal. There are a lot of us on this forum and others that claim a product is a God-send, almost perfect and other accolades, but as an engineer specializing in engine testing and instrumentation, once I learnt what Scott's product does I can't comment enough on how scientifically correct it is. Most after-market maps run a simple "just add 15% fuel", even some offered by certain reputable tuning shops, but the Softronic map is a very-well designed open-ended, closed-loop learning map, just like the one on your car as stock, only much, much better.

Almost every user has noted increased agility, eagerness and resistance to stall, a better feel and improved mid-range. It also seems to offer by far the best results when coupled to an exhaust, as when the restrictive stock exhaust is replaced, the next choke-point seems to be the plenum.

I won't add anything further, because honestly, if you'd like more info there's about six different thread on this very forum, specificically arguing pro/con of the SRP product. It's redundant to badger the man every time a new potential customer comes along and wonders when there's knowledge that's been digested and proven already here.

Tomasz · #12 06-16-2009, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Pint of Brew

I'd also like to add that in the case of modded exhaust -and- SRP modification, the loss low -down is more than likely a by-product of reduced exhaust backpressure than anything to do with either the Softronic mapping or the Plenum: At low-RPM (ie: each cycle takes a long time) the highly-efficient exhaust cams exhaust all the gasses in a comparable time (in seconds) to high-RPM, but at low-RPM this time represents only a portion of the Power-stroke. This means that naturally-aspirated engines need a little bit of back-pressure to keep them driveable at low-range. Hence why F1 cars idle at 7000rpm, and it's so easy to stall supercars.

Hi-flow exhausts are very low back-pressure, so they help at high-RPM (where the stock exhaust's flow is maxed out) but they produce this dip in low-RPM as they're effectively too efficient.

Exhaust coment aside, the Softronic product range has remarkable support, has been thoroughly tested, has had zero failures, almost zero removal. There are a lot of us on this forum and others that claim a product is a God-send, almost perfect and other accolades, but as an engineer specializing in engine testing and instrumentation, once I learnt what Scott's product does I can't comment enough on how scientifically correct it is. Most after-market maps run a simple "just add 15% fuel", even some offered by certain reputable tuning shops, but the Softronic map is a very-well designed open-ended, closed-loop learning map, just like the one on your car as stock, only much, much better.

Almost every user has noted increased agility, eagerness and resistance to stall, a better feel and improved mid-range. It also seems to offer by far the best results when coupled to an exhaust, as when the restrictive stock exhaust is replaced, the next choke-point seems to be the plenum.

I won't add anything further, because honestly, if you'd like more info there's about six different thread on this very forum, specificically arguing pro/con of the SRP product. It's redundant to badger the man every time a new potential customer comes along and wonders when there's knowledge that's been digested and proven already here.

I disagree with your first paragraph. Exhausts have been pretty much proven to add torque above 3,000 RPM. SRP has been pretty much proven to take away torque below 4,000 RPM. Both without other mods. Facelvegas and my dyno charts in the dyno forum show it quite clearly and Scott has said it himself.

I fully agree with the rest of your post. Softronic is very well engineered and flexibility of performing your own flash is paramount.

Its important to me that expectations are set correctly. Plenum upgrade is NOT what you want if torque at 3,500 RPM is important to you, exhaust upgrade is what you want. Plenum / SRP will deliver GT3 like screaming redline power.

Mrd07 · #13 06-16-2009, 02:06 PM

Look at my graphs

I have way more torque at 3000rpm than stock.

This was not the case with 3.1 but 4.1 is a vast improvment in the whole rev range.

Most graphs you see and comment on were done ages ago with 3.1
I even posted 3.1 was worst than stock low down, Lucky I only had 3.1 for a day, as Scott sent me 4.1 after my post and the car is now amazing through the whole range as you can see from my graphs, which were done very close to each other with the same dyno, tyre pressures etc etc.

from 100kph to 200kph my car is 3 seconds faster than stock

Tomasz · #14 06-16-2009, 02:58 PM

Please stop the nonsense.

Ken and Scott confirm through discussion and dyno plots that there is no difference between 3.1 and 4.1 in terms of power. Huge difference in drive ability.

Here

Scott in his own words says that "everyone knows the SRP will loose torque at low RPMs". This is in response to my post claiming the loss. It appears that Scott believes its a well known fact, but I did not know that mostly because of posts like yours above therefore was suprised.

I do not have time to find it, but its somewhere here.

We can argue if the loss is below 3,000 or 4,000 as dynos conflict on that point, I do not know. But I think its unfair to confuse people.

I do wonder if adding SRP to a car with exhaust has positive or negative impact on low end torque. We KNOW that adding exhaust to a car with SRP has a positive impact. Documented by me and facelvega.

But I am sure we will find out soon as someone with an exhaust and a reliable dyno will install SRP. Maybe Gator will do it!!!

Let me be clear. I do not want to argue or slam Softronic. I like my SRP, I will probably like it more once I install an exhaust. But I want people to be clear on the pros and cons associated with it. Low end torque gain is not the pro. I was confused on that fact, and my expectations were not met when I installed SRP 4.1. That was my fault.

Mrd07 · #15 06-16-2009, 04:09 PM

they claim NO extra peek BHp gains.
the drive ability comes from bigger gains than 3.1 lower down the range.

look at my graphs I have more power at 3000Rpm and at 4000rpm i have 30+ft/lbs more.

it's there in black and white using one of the top Dyno's in the UK which Evo Magazine also use.

**Softronic** · #16 06-16-2009, 04:40 PM

Just some facts. When the SRP is installed by itself with NO other mods and run on a dyno it will show a min loss below 3.5k , not at 4k or 3.6 etc yet 3.5k. Why ? Simple this is when the Diverter pipe is actuated at 3.5 K in a stock car and it would intersect at that point and increase. The continual posting of 4k is not correct by the mechanics of what was replaced and why. Dynos that may show 3.8 or 4k or even 3k would be in error.

A note on rolling dyno's, they run at full load and open loop so while they look for max power or try to they show nothing up to the 99.9 % of throttle and driving. Most runs are all started above 2.5k to 3k so it is not accurate to look for losses below this by them.

The SRP as of record shows gains after an many differant exhausts have been put on cars. This has been shown many times. Should this not be the case then the exhaust systems alone would be generating the 36-40hp without software or the SRP??? None have shown this type of gain unless coupled with the SRP.

All the exhaust systems show min to no gains below 4k or so either on the dyno's.

Best,
Scott

Tomasz · #17 06-16-2009, 04:42 PM

I see in your graph and agree that you have gained torque above 3,000 RPM by adding exhaust and SRP. What we do not know if the exhaust added 20 and SRP subtracted 10 or if the exhaust added 5 and SRP another 5.

My point right above is that we know that exhaust alone adds lots of torque at 3,500 RPM. We know that SRP alone looses torque at 3,000 RPM. We know that when combined there is a gain of torque after 3,000 RPM. But again we do not know if the net effect of adding SRP to a car with an exhaust is negative or positive (at the low torque range) at high RPM range its ought to be positive.

I would not be suprised, BUT I AM SPECULATING now that if you removed SRP and replaced it with a OEM plenum and performance flash you would see further torque gains at 2,000 to 4,000 RPM AND loses above 5,000. Frankly this is why we have this funky plenum in first place.

Now depending how you want your car to perform, this maybe a better solution for someone. Not for me, but I am going all out with Stage II+.

Mrd07 · #18 06-16-2009, 04:58 PM

I did all my mods in one go,

So as you can see I am very pleased with how mine turned out before and after as its all gains :-).
I never see the point in maps on their own or doing stuff bit by bit.

3 seconds quicker 100 to 200 kmp and no horid dead spot at 3.5k ish is a real bonus. My car is just so smooth now in the whole range.

So fit the throttle body, Plemum and exhaust and put that smile back on your face, it sure does make for a quick little car.

Tomasz · #19 06-16-2009, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Softronic

Just some facts. ...
All the exhaust systems show min to no gains below 4k or so either on the dyno's.

Best,
Scott

Facts?

Borla

http://www.planetporsche.net/cayman-...tml#post275395

http://www.planetporsche.net/porsche...-fabspeed.html

Enough said. I am off for vacation, so I will leave you all alone for few days.

**Softronic** · #20 06-16-2009, 08:37 PM

The Borla showed a gain of 21.4HP the Awe a 17.1HP and there is one that you did that shows a comparison of Fabspeed and Techart for a difference of 6HP.

I also find the first Borla dyno done on different days starting at different points. I guess we could say that it started to read the data at 3400 for a dif of 10hp by it. The same is to be said of the AWE exhaust on the same dyno etc.

However this was also in the same thread back on page 3 on another car with a Borla and look at the graph. This one does not show gains until 4k and up with the same type car and exhaust? Now what is interesting is the overall gain is the same so both graphs seem to match on overall HP yet what is different? Below 4k. The exhaust systems in the dyno's do not seem to loose below 4k however they seem to work best above this.

Now why would there be two different Dyno charts? Well perhaps that they are not all accurate and different areas interact as well with the cars. Would I expect a dyno in Colorado to be the same as one in CA or then in CT? No. Rolling wheel dynos are far from accurate down low and in general.

I can guarantee you that the same dyno with the same car would not give you the same results in these locations just in the US. Ca would run 91 octane, Colorado would expect high alt with less oxygen, while CT would use 93 octane and at a lower elevation . This didn't even take in for the temp or humidity differences at the time.

We cant even get the same results for what Porsche produces the cars at on the rolling dyno's. Now one could say that we get the base and then the improvement and that is gospel, not exactly either. There would be an inherent flaw on a car that tested on a known controlled engine dyno at 295BHP and then showed only 240 on one dyno and then 267 on another and so on. The correct reading should be the same on any of them allowing for the drive train loss in which they are not. The percentage of gain would also not be the same.

Now we would not have this discussion if it was all tested in an environmentally controlled engine dyno on the same engine etc.

I think that we can all agree that using both the SRP with software and an exhaust is the best way to go. This is as a general assembly and not necessarily for this OP. While the Exhaust has min gains low and the SRP has a min loss below 3.5k or so they work the best as a package yet both do show gains regardless.

I think we all should spend less time trying to over analyzing every scenario and just move on. Unless the OP is fully on the pedal and off 100 percent none of the data in discussion would apply.

I could use the vacation also.

Best,
Scott