Planet 9

**Slatfatf** · #**201** 06-11-2008, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by CAGT

Does anyone agree with my earlier suggestion regarding this thread?? Pardon my honesty, but we seem to be going in a circular motion.

I do not think this thread should be closed. It continues to be a useful forum for the sharing of information and possible solutions to the problem.

arcticsilver · #**202** 06-11-2008, 10:30 AM

I agree with Fort. While we have certainly gotten off topic, the "severe smoke" thread is quite useful. I think the consequences from violating the stated warranty restrictions, whether by modification or "abuse" are really self-evident. These posts should be removed from this thread and put into a "warranty issues" thread. Let's get back on topic!

CAGT · #**203** 06-12-2008, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by arcticsilver

I agree with Fort. While we have certainly gotten off topic, the "severe smoke" thread is quite useful. I think the consequences from violating the stated warranty restrictions, whether by modification or "abuse" are really self-evident. These posts should be removed from this thread and put into a "warranty issues" thread. Let's get back on topic!

but if you removed the 'self-evident consequences' type posts, there wouldn't be any cases of 'severe smoke'.

I just think that the thread is not really going anywhere because we all agree that if the car's modified, pushed real hard on track (or even street in some cases) then you may get smoke - for a reason. I think the issue of resolving the smoke in the above-mentioned cases could be better addressed by the specialist repirers/modifiers and then that fix could be offered and/or listed under the articles section (as glenn has already done)

That's all.

arcticsilver · #**204** 06-12-2008, 04:44 AM

Sorry CAGT, what I was referring to as "consequences" was the failure of Porsche to honor warranties, and we all take that risk when we violate Porsche restrictions, whether by modification or "abuse". It would be nice if Porsche made all their cars "track worthy", but they don't. Those of us who track their cars anyway, violate these restrictions and may not be covered, and we do so willingly.

To prevent oil injestion and oil starvation, and the resulting smoke and potential engine damage, we can make certain modifications (sump extension, larger oil separator). This is what I thought the thread was about, but it has digressed into a discussion of Porsche warranty policy.

Gator Bite · #**205** 06-12-2008, 07:06 AM

I can really see both sides of this argument. But that doesn't change the fact that I am very disappointed that Porsche has left so little headroom in the abilities of these cars.

In the past, Porsche was known to 'over engineer' their cars. Meaning you could modify and push them well beyond their designed capabilities without serious loss of reliability or malfunction. How many 944 Turbo owners bumped their boost pressure and uncorked an additional 50-70 horsepower from their entry level Porsche with very little if any hit to reliability? But if you install a set of R compound tires on the $70K mid engine coupe you are pushing your car beyond it's abilities and need to accept a malfunction.

Disgraceful to all that Porsche stands for. I assure you that if Porsche were to continue to produce cars with flaws like this and then hide behind printed legal jargon to justify them, the Porsche name and mystique will fade and lose value. Porsches have long been known as the car you can track on Sunday and drive to work on Monday.

Wake up Porsche. Remember what got you where you are. Remember why people will pay a premium for a Porsche. Today people line up to over pay for a Porsche because of the Porsche mystique. That mystique was built on your past, a past when Porsche cars were among the very few that could stand up to track use. Don't take your eye off the ball or you will find you brand eroding.

Nitro8472 · #**206** 06-13-2008, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Gator Bite

I can really see both sides of this argument. But that doesn't change the fact that I am very disappointed that Porsche has left so little headroom in the abilities of these cars.

In the past, Porsche was known to 'over engineer' their cars. Meaning you could modify and push them well beyond their designed capabilities without serious loss of reliability or malfunction. How many 944 Turbo owners bumped their boost pressure and uncorked an additional 50-70 horsepower from their entry level Porsche with very little if any hit to reliability? But if you install a set of R compound tires on the $70K mid engine coupe you are pushing your car beyond it's abilities and need to accept a malfunction.

Disgraceful to all that Porsche stands for. I assure you that if Porsche were to continue to produce cars with flaws like this and then hide behind printed legal jargon to justify them, the Porsche name and mystique will fade and lose value. Porsches have long been known as the car you can track on Sunday and drive to work on Monday.

Wake up Porsche. Remember what got you where you are. Remember why people will pay a premium for a Porsche. Today people line up to over pay for a Porsche because of the Porsche mystique. That mystique was built on your past, a past when Porsche cars were among the very few that could stand up to track use. Don't take your eye off the ball or you will find you brand eroding.

+100, Exactly what I had in mind, couldnt have said it better!!

________________________

"Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

A good car will get you from point A to point B. A great car... will just get you into trouble!

**afridi** · #**207** 06-13-2008, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Gator Bite

I can really see both sides of this argument. But that doesn't change the fact that I am very disappointed that Porsche has left so little headroom in the abilities of these cars.

In the past, Porsche was known to 'over engineer' their cars. Meaning you could modify and push them well beyond their designed capabilities without serious loss of reliability or malfunction. How many 944 Turbo owners bumped their boost pressure and uncorked an additional 50-70 horsepower from their entry level Porsche with very little if any hit to reliability? But if you install a set of R compound tires on the $70K mid engine coupe you are pushing your car beyond it's abilities and need to accept a malfunction.

Disgraceful to all that Porsche stands for. I assure you that if Porsche were to continue to produce cars with flaws like this and then hide behind printed legal jargon to justify them, the Porsche name and mystique will fade and lose value. Porsches have long been known as the car you can track on Sunday and drive to work on Monday.

Wake up Porsche. Remember what got you where you are. Remember why people will pay a premium for a Porsche. Today people line up to over pay for a Porsche because of the Porsche mystique. That mystique was built on your past, a past when Porsche cars were among the very few that could stand up to track use. Don't take your eye off the ball or you will find you brand eroding.

Exactly how I feel about it. I bought it precisely because of the history: a car you can run hard on the track and drive to work the next day.

I didnt buy it to pose to the neighbours. If I wanted to do that I could have bought an AMG Mercedes.

Itmerc · #**208** 06-13-2008, 08:50 AM

D_A_M_N straight! No Porsche should EVER have problems just because you put stickier tires on it and drove it with intent. On a track or otherwise. All we're talking about changing here is swapping the AOS to one that is more robust and for the most part ALREADY AVAILABLE. A relatively minor tweak to its layout/design would make it easier to install across the Porsche line and NO MORE OIL INGESTION PROBLEM.

Hell, worst case, just make it a dealer installed option that you have to ask for on a case by case basis instead of telling us its "not available" unless you have a GT3 and know a racing team who can get it for you on the sly.

I understand that moving away from the split case GT engine to what we have now was driven by the natural desire to minimize costs and maximize profit margin, but in my opinion they've done us all a great disservice and need to address several shortcommings of the "integrated dry sump"... Come on, its either a dry sump or its NOT. In this case, ITS NOT. Things like aftermarket sump extensions and baffles/windage trays are band-aids to what many see to be a poor engineering decision/compromise.

Sorry, just venting. Its a PORSCHE not a Volkswagon Jetta. And it also happens to have the potential to be the best performing one they've ever made... IF THEY'D JUST LET IT.

Originally Posted by Gator Bite

In the past, Porsche was known to 'over engineer' their cars. Meaning you could modify and push them well beyond their designed capabilities without serious loss of reliability or malfunction. How many 944 Turbo owners bumped their boost pressure and uncorked an additional 50-70 horsepower from their entry level Porsche with very little if any hit to reliability? But if you install a set of R compound tires on the $70K mid engine coupe you are pushing your car beyond it's abilities and need to accept a malfunction.

Disgraceful to all that Porsche stands for. I assure you that if Porsche were to continue to produce cars with flaws like this and then hide behind printed legal jargon to justify them, the Porsche name and mystique will fade and lose value. Porsches have long been known as the car you can track on Sunday and drive to work on Monday.

Wake up Porsche. Remember what got you where you are. Remember why people will pay a premium for a Porsche...

**K-Man S** · #**209** 06-13-2008, 09:57 AM

As an FYI there are no more Motorsports AOS's in the U.S. they've all been snatched up, there are some on the way from Germany though.

**Slatfatf** · #**210** 06-13-2008, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by K-Man S

As an FYI there are no more Motorsports AOS's in the U.S. they've all been snatched up, there are some on the way from Germany though.

I ordered one about 2 weeks ago from Tischer's online parts source. The part number is in Glenn's article. There was a 9 day delay from order date to ship date - it had to come in from Germany. Perhaps the lead time has deteriorated since then, but I did not have any difficulty obtaining the part.

**K-Man S** · #**211** 06-13-2008, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Fort Felker

I ordered one about 2 weeks ago from Tischer's online parts source. The part number is in Glenn's article. There was a 9 day delay from order date to ship date - it had to come in from Germany. Perhaps the lead time has deteriorated since then, but I did not have any difficulty obtaining the part.

Sounds like they had to source from Germany as well, even 2 weeks ago, I suspect maybe a few more came over but those got snatched up so they are back to getting them from Germany again. I'm just saying people shouldn't expect their dealer to have them in stock, and shouldn't expect a 2 day delivery time either, more like the 9 day time you were quoted.

**porcupine** · #**212** 06-13-2008, 02:14 PM

check out the last photo in this blog post.

First Drive: 2008 Porsche RS 60 Spyder - Autoblog

**K-Man S** · #**213** 06-13-2008, 02:31 PM

Wow... and at a Porsche event? Think anyone noticed?

BillK · #**214** 06-13-2008, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Itmerc

D_A_M_N straight! No Porsche should EVER have problems just because you put stickier tires on it and drove it with intent. On a track or otherwise. All we're talking about changing here is swapping the AOS to one that is more robust and for the most part ALREADY AVAILABLE. A relatively minor tweak to its layout/design would make it easier to install across the Porsche line and NO MORE OIL INGESTION PROBLEM.

Porsche isn't saying you can't do it, just that if you do don't expect to have a warranty.

Seriously, does any manufacturer warrant their cars if you put on slicks and/or run them on a track?

You also don't know what the additional cost of that tweak in layout/design would cost them.

Finally, I'm sure "protecting" the 911 also has something to do with the design as well.

I'm not trying to defend Porsche here, just inject a bit of reality to the discussion.

Gator Bite · #**215** 06-13-2008, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by porcupine

check out the last photo in this blog post.

First Drive: 2008 Porsche RS 60 Spyder - Autoblog

Unbelievable. Freaking disgraceful.....!

Originally Posted by BillK

Porsche isn't saying you can't do it, just that if you do don't expect to have a warranty.

Seriously, does any manufacturer warrant their cars if you put on slicks and/or run them on a track?

You also don't know what the additional cost of that tweak in layout/design would cost them.

Finally, I'm sure "protecting" the 911 also has something to do with the design as well.

I'm not trying to defend Porsche here, just inject a bit of reality to the discussion.

Reality....? OK.....

BillK · #**216** 06-14-2008, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Gator Bite

Reality....? OK.....

It's just that people said the Cayenne would kill Porsche heritage… but it saved the company.

Oil ingestion won't "kill" Porsche heritage any more than it has since the 987 was introduced, or the 986 for that matter.

For better or worse, Porsche racing history likely influences a tiny percentage of buyers.

Frankly. I'd bet a higher percentage of Porsche owners bought them because of the race with "Guido the Killer Pimp" in Risky Business.

***PolarPorsche*** · #**217** 06-14-2008, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by BillK

Porsche isn't saying you can't do it, just that if you do don't expect to have a warranty.

Seriously, does any manufacturer warrant their cars if you put on slicks and/or run them on a track?

You also don't know what the additional cost of that tweak in layout/design would cost them.

Finally, I'm sure "protecting" the 911 also has something to do with the design as well.

I'm not trying to defend Porsche here, just inject a bit of reality to the discussion.

Slicks are not necessary to make this happen, my 3.4L BS has done it at every DE & AX event in complete stock form. The AOS will be a winter mod for me but I really believe that PCNA should address this problem and correct it on all future models.

Track Junkie · #**218** 06-14-2008, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by BillK

Porsche isn't saying you can't do it, just that if you do don't expect to have a warranty.

Seriously, does any manufacturer warrant their cars if you put on slicks and/or run them on a track?

You also don't know what the additional cost of that tweak in layout/design would cost them.

Finally, I'm sure "protecting" the 911 also has something to do with the design as well.

I'm not trying to defend Porsche here, just inject a bit of reality to the discussion.

The reality is a car owners expectations are based on experience.
I have never personally experienced this oil ingestion smoke problem with any other car I have owned and taken to the track in the last nine years. I first experienced this problem when I bought a Porsche Cayman S. My expectation is the Porsche Cayman S would be like all the other cars I have taken to the track for driving schools and not smoke. I expect any car not to have a oil ingestion problem on the track, especially a $70,000 Porsche Cayman S.

My expectations are higher for a Porsche, that's why I am so disappointed.

looper_1234 · #**219** 06-14-2008, 06:53 AM

there is quite a big difference, some (lots of )ppl like the cyanne, eg me !!!! why not, its decent to drive, great off road, even smells nicer then other cars.

but i don't think anyone likes the idea of belching smoke and runing a car with an elavated risk of engine failure due to hydro-lock, and purposfully taking in slow around left hand turns just in case.

to say that this is acceptable and the "reality" of a porsche now days is frankly an insult to porsche, if i were the boss and learned that this is the view ppl look upon to my brand, i think i'd have skinned some yuppie excutives\accountants alive.

Gator Bite · #**220** 06-14-2008, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by BillK

Oil ingestion won't "kill" Porsche heritage any more than it has since the 987 was introduced, or the 986 for that matter.

For better or worse, Porsche racing history likely influences a tiny percentage of buyers.

Frankly. I'd bet a higher percentage of Porsche owners bought them because of the race with "Guido the Killer Pimp" in Risky Business.

You may be right about what influences today's Porsche buyers. It's kind of sad really. The progression that a company goes through.

In the beginning, Porsche was all about performance. The cars were small, light, agile and they stood up to abuse and track very well. The commitment to performance spawned a following of wealthy car fanatics that wanted something different, something special, something that performed better than the rest of the cookie cutter automobiles.

All the way into the 1990s, Porsches were quirky cars. They were noisy. They had lousy shifters, funky pedals, A/C and stereos systems that absolutely sucked. The engines were finiky and expensive to keep running well. If you bought a Porsche, you bought one because you wanted performance and you were willing to sacrafice all of the other stuff to get it.

Somewhere along the way, the Porsche became an icon, a status symbol, a dream car. Today's buyers lament about iPod interfaces, muddy sub woofers, burning cosmoline, halogen lights and service appointments that represent less than 1% of the cars cost per year. Many of today's Porsche buyers don't know, understand or care about the heritage. I do. It's why I bought a Porsche and I am dissapointed with this oil ingestion BS.

Porsche will survive just fine without me and without all of the true enthusiasts that made the Porsche brand what it is today. But make no mistake. If they abaondon us, the real enthusiasts, they will feel the error of their ways. It may take 10 or 20 years, but they will feel it. Don't believe me? Ask someone who's familiar with the rise and fall of Jaguar.

Originally Posted by looper_1234

to say that this is acceptable and the "reality" of a porsche now days is frankly an insult to porsche, if i were the boss and learned that this is the view ppl look upon to my brand, i think i'd have skinned some yuppie excutives\accountants alive.

Well said. I agree.