Planet 9

***DaveN007*** · #21 02-23-2008, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by beez

While I agree generally with your post above - the new motors, for a variety of reasons, are not as ideally suited for track use as the motors based on the older split case models... PAG's admonition about track tire use, does not mention R-compound tires... they specifically call out the use of slicks as something they'll not accept warranty claims from...

Page 2 of the 2006 CS owner's manual:

The fitting of racing tires (e.g. slicks) for sporting
events is not approved by Porsche. Very high cornering
speeds can be achieved with racing tires.
However, the resulting transverse acceleration
values would jeopardize the adequate supply of oil
to the engine.
Porsche therefore will not accept any warranty or
accept any liability for damage occurring as a result
of non-compliance with this provision.

brad

You are correct, of course. It does not say R compound tires. My mistake.

***DaveN007*** · #22 02-23-2008, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by glenn

Lets all keep in mind that this is also a problem on the 996 and 997. Except the GT3, GT2 and Turbo.

I never had any problem with my car with stock suspension and stock tires.

The Cayman shows the problem more than the others, because the car acheives .25 PLUS more lateral G's than the normal 997.
This is not because the car has a special problem. Its because the handling is too good for the engine pollution control device design.

Yes the factory knows about the oil ingestion problem and so do many dealers. I was warned that this would happen as soon as I lowered the car and installed Hoosiers. So I knew what I was getting into. Maybe I was hoping they were wrong or that my car was 'special'. But having to fix this problem is something I was expecting.

This is not unlike buying a GT3 or RS and having to change all the factory settings and bushings to make it a track car. This is just more of a hassle AND the Cayman is so new that there are NO diffusion of experts that can fix it immediately, like there is on the 997.

In fact, the oil seperator that I installed on the Cayman was recommended by someone that had the same problem on a 997 3.8x51 conversion that had a near perfect setup, and could pull some lateral Gs close to my Cayman. Its a 10min fix on a 997. But a 10 hour fix on a Cayman, because the wiring harness and smog blower have to be moved out of the way.

What does this fix actually do? Prevent the blowing smoke only? It doesn't address the oil starvation issue does it?

**glenn** · #23 02-23-2008, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by DaveN007

What does this fix actually do? Prevent the blowing smoke only? It doesn't address the oil starvation issue does it?

The thread started about smoke. The 2 chamber oil separator should prevent oil ingestion into the combustion chamber which is causing smoke and has the possibility of causing hydro-lock.
The best fix I know on oil starvation is the sump extension.

***DaveN007*** · #24 02-23-2008, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by glenn

The thread started about smoke. The 2 chamber oil separator should prevent oil ingestion into the combustion chamber which is causing smoke and has the possibility of causing hydro-lock.
The best fix I know on oil starvation is the sump extension.

Thanks, glenn!

**Dollivier** · #25 02-23-2008, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by glenn

The thread started about smoke. The 2 chamber oil separator should prevent oil ingestion into the combustion chamber which is causing smoke and has the possibility of causing hydro-lock.
The best fix I know on oil starvation is the sump extension.

Hi Glenn -

What is hydro-lock? On one turn I get the smoke and the engine bogs down. My CEL would come on. I would check it and would give me a cylinder misfire reading. This only happened after I installed R compound tires and Racing Suspension and was going much faster than when I was stock.

Derek

**glenn** · #26 02-23-2008, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Dollivier

Hi Glenn -

What is hydro-lock? On one turn I get the smoke and the engine bogs down. My CEL would come on. I would check it and would give me a cylinder misfire reading. This only happened after I installed R compound tires and Racing Suspension and was going much faster than when I was stock.

Derek

Wikipedia: "Hydrolock (short for hydraulic lock) is the immobilization of an engine's pistons by a liquid (usually water, hence the prefix "hydro-"). Hydrolocking occurs when liquid fills a cylinder on the intake stroke and, due to the incompressibility of a liquid, makes the compression stroke impossible. This, in turn, prevents the entire engine from turning, and can cause significant engine damage if one attempts to forcibly turn over or start the engine. Typically, connecting rods will be bent, making the engine uneconomical to repair."

Well before engine 'locking' from a large amount of oil, excessive oil in the combustion chamber can cause premature ring failure and piston cracking from the excessive chamber pressures it can create.

I get that same engine bog down and I am positive that it is from excessive oil in the cylinders. Try making that turn in a higher gear. It works for me most of the time.

Nitro8472 · #27 02-23-2008, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by catchacab

In my opinion Porsche engines of the 986/996 design are not idealy suited for track duty due to the lack of a true dry sump among some other oiling issues.

hmmm, probably there's something I dont understand, but isnt the cayman considered a 987?!

________________________

"Sir! We're surrounded!" - "Excellent! We can shoot in any direction!"

A good car will get you from point A to point B. A great car... will just get you into trouble!

**DriveS4spd** · #28 03-01-2008, 04:47 AM

Anyone on this board experiencing this at Watkins Glen? There's a left hand turn after the carousel at the end of a fast down hill stretch. From what's been posted here on the subject I imagine the smoke issue might occur here. Thanks in advance.

**QShip** · #29 03-01-2008, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by DaveN007

With PS2s...

I'm not quite stock, but I do run PS2s and I sometimes see smoke out of my tailpipe in rapid decel under high revs before a left-hand turn, e.g. Turn 1 at THill and Turn 2 at Laguna Seca. I run at min oil and have the Mantisport sump extension.

I'd love to see a fix for this that doesn't require a day of labor.

And to those that think this is unacceptable in a Porsche, I almost agree. It's very sad, and it kept me from pulling the trigger for awhile, but when you look at alternatives at the same price point, you see that it isn't all that "unacceptable".

**glenn** · #30 03-02-2008, 12:58 PM

I spent an hour at the track today, to test my new GT3 brakes, spherical bushings and my new porsche motorsports oil seperator.

I pushed the car pretty hard. Passed a couple of GT3s. I purposely took some corners in second that I had been taking in 3rd and I go no smoke puffs at all. In the past, taking those corners in 2nd gear caused a lot of smoke and the engine to bog down.

Then after setting for 30 mins, when I restarted the car.... instead of the huge smoke cloud, there was no smoke whatsoever.

I have a PCA DE next weekend, I will see if I have the same experience after 2 days of hard driving.

catchacab · #31 03-02-2008, 01:06 PM

[QUOTE=Nitro8472;230132]
hmmm, probably there's something I dont understand, but isnt the cayman considered a 987?!

They are of the same engine design

**DriveS4spd** · #32 03-03-2008, 09:21 AM

Glenn,

Nice to hear that it's working. Who did you get the parts from?

**glenn** · #33 03-03-2008, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by DriveS4spd

Glenn,

Nice to hear that it's working. Who did you get the parts from?

It looks like you can order it from getporscheparts.com cheaper than what I paid. If that does not work, you can try RUF or one of the racing team support companies.

But remember it is a 1 day job. Its minutes to mount the MS oil separator but hours to figure out how to remount the auxiliary blower, wiring harness, shorten the vacuum line and install a longer return line hose. If you are near Dallas, the RUF AutoCenter might be willing to do it, they quoted me 10 hours labor.

**DriveS4spd** · #34 03-03-2008, 02:53 PM

Thanks Glenn. Sadly I'm in upstate NY so Dallas is unlikely for me. Any others have these mods done a little closer to NY?

moralem · #35 03-03-2008, 03:00 PM

Glenn, I will be out there this weekend with you and I have appreciate your input on what to expect......but do I need to worry about some of these things that are being talked about.....or should I just take it leisurely and see how I like my first time out there.....as things get closer the more anxious I get. I also just got my Quaife and will wait to get it installed after the DE.....should I get it done before or see what it is like without it first so that I can draw a comparison......so many questions....thanks.

beez · #36 03-03-2008, 03:15 PM

Just a "smoke" update from out West - gemars came up to Las Vegas for our LVR-PCA DE event this last weekend at Spring Mountain, and we threw our cars around both days pretty darn good, and Greg got some small smoke puffs on start-up, and I saw none at all from my car, even on start-up. He was running on Nitto NT-1s and has Sport Chrono, PASM, a Quaife, and Softronic software... I was on MPSCs and am otherwise stock with Sport Chrono and PASM.

You can see a video of him chasing me here: http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-com...tml#post233241

brad

**glenn** · #37 03-03-2008, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by DriveS4spd

Thanks Glenn. Sadly I'm in upstate NY so Dallas is unlikely for me. Any others have these mods done a little closer to NY?

I have discussed this with Ernie a Mantis Motorsports and he is looking into the possibility of doing a kit.

Maybe Farhnbacher-Loles would be willing to give it a try?
Really any race car builder has done a lot of harder things than this.

**DriveS4spd** · #38 03-03-2008, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by glenn

I have discussed this with Ernie a Mantis Motorsports and he is looking into the possibility of doing a kit.

Maybe Farhnbacher-Loles would be willing to give it a try?
Really any race car builder has done a lot of harder things than this.

Farhnbacher-Loles is like 5 hrs from me so that would be do-able. Many thanks for your input and for sharing!

**glenn** · #39 03-03-2008, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by moralem

Glenn, I will be out there this weekend with you and I have appreciate your input on what to expect......but do I need to worry about some of these things that are being talked about.....or should I just take it leisurely and see how I like my first time out there.....as things get closer the more anxious I get. I also just got my Quaife and will wait to get it installed after the DE.....should I get it done before or see what it is like without it first so that I can draw a comparison......so many questions....thanks.

Don't worry about any of it, at all. This is your first DE. Its not the same as your Ducati days. You have to get a feel for the car before you are going to be pulling 1.25 to 1.5 Gs in the corners.

No reason to take it easy on the Cayman. PUSH IT!!! The Cayman is a fine platform, easy to drive on the track, very reliable in all ways. You should expect to have ZERO problems with your car on the track.

In fact, I had no problems at all until I had a few thousand track miles under my belt, got into the advanced driving group, added coilovers, added hooisers and added a track set up on the suspension. There was some smoke while I was on Toyos, but no engine bog down. I learned to stop the bog down for the most part, by not doing high G corners above 5k RPM.

I also don't think this is a problem that just shows up one day. For me it was a progression of more and more smoke, to the point that it was obvious that I had to do something. Until you see garage filling smoke on start up (like I did), your fellow drivers see excessive smoke, you get black flagged for smoke (like I did), or the engine bogs in the high G corners (like mine), you don't need to do anything to prepare for this in advance. Nothing wrong with waiting for it to show up.

Keep in mind that problem disappears when you stop driving on the track and return the car to the street. Come out and pass some 911's and you will see how good the Cayman really is.

**glenn** · #40 03-03-2008, 05:20 PM

I was going to do an article on this..... but here are some photos of the Motor sport Oil Separator finished install.

by the way, no matter how hard this is, its easier on the Cayman than the 996 or 997. We can do this from the top, they have to drop the 911 engine to get to the oil separator. We just have a little tighter space to fit it all in.