Planet 9

CaywomanSM · #1 05-07-2009, 10:36 AM

Hi...I've read a bunch of threads on this topic, but haven't found all the answers I'm looking for. I'm hoping all the experts on this forum can help me out...

First, it's only been about 19K miles on my 2007 Cayman, and all 4 rotors are already shot...the front ones a bit worse than the rears. I measured with a micrometer just to make sure. It's a tip, which I know is harder on the brakes, and I track it about 3-4 times a year, with a few spirited mountain drives (Angeles Crest & Mt. Wilson) here and there. But still...is this normal wear? Seems a bit excessive to me. I've seen mixed comments on this and am not sure what to think.

Second, the rotors are wearing oddly on both the front and the back of the rotor if that makes sense. Running my fingers over the surface, I'm feeling unusually deep grooves. The pads need a change soon too, but I'm not sure that is the sole cause. Has anyone else experienced this or know of anything that could be rubbing up against the rotors to cause that kind of wear?

Third, the brake dust is killing me! I wash my own car, and it's taking me about 4 hours total JUST to wash, with almost 2 hours dedicated to the rims alone. If anyone has those Porsche Sport Design wheels with what seems like a million nooks and crevices, you probably also feel my pain. Next time, I'm just going with a simple 5-spoke wheel. Wheel Wax is okay, but even the "wax on, wax off" application alone takes hours. I've tried purchasing all the best wheel cleaners and brushes out there, and no help. Other than springing a load on the PCCB, do I have any other aftermarket options?? I'm open to recos on rotors, pads, products, cleaning advise...whatever!!!

Please help! This really caught me off guard as I was not expecting it this soon. I need to get these replaced ASAP...I've been spending a lot of time researching and not getting very far, and I really don't want to pop those sensors - which are about to go any day now...

THANKS!!!

**jaica** · #2 05-07-2009, 11:08 AM

This thread will answer some of your questions:
http://www.planetporsche.net/cayman-...000-miles.html

Go to this thread post #11 of the following link to see trully worn rotors. I did not let mine get that bad. It is a function of pad you use, how hard you brake. I changed to Girodisk rotors because I also wanted a disk that was "easier"

on my pads

http://www.planetporsche.net/site-ve...girodiscs.html

This will start to give you and answer to your question, you can also do a search and fid more info.

**KS-CS** · #3 05-07-2009, 03:12 PM

The wear does seem a bit premature, even for a Tip - I have over 28K miles on my original rotors, including some 18 or so track days (use Pagids on the track) and I still have a little life left in the rotors, though the fronts are getting close to the wear limits. I have seen others post about wearing out the rotors at less than 20K miles, so I guess YMMV.

Are you just running the stock pads? Any chance you could take some close-up pictures of the grooves you're describing?

You might check with Craig@Rennstore.com (sponsor) for suggestion for a less dusty pad choice; IIRC, he was recommending Pagid Blues in that regard (which would also work better than OEM for occasional track use).

**STLPCA** · #4 05-07-2009, 03:44 PM

I don't find your wear after 19k to be odd. If used aggressively I've found all my Porsche rotors over the years will groove, so unless it's excessive, nothing unusual there either. Your rear wear may be a bit high. PSM intervention will accelerate rear wear, so if you're relying on PSM regularly that may be the reason.

My front rotors were gone before 17k miles from daily driver/track toy use, although the rears are fine. I use oem pads for street and Pagid yellows for track. Wear depends on how hard you brake (street and track) and driving style, so it's really YMMV making the experience of others largely irrelevant.

As for brake dust, I have no problem easily cleaning my occasionally waxed wheels using a 1200 psi pressure sprayer, but then I have oem 18" and 5 spoke Carrera Classic 19" wheels. The SD wheels are a PITA to clean which alone is why I didn't consider them. There are lower dust pads, but I've no personal experience with them.

beez · #5 05-07-2009, 03:56 PM

I agree with the above posts - pad and rotor wear are entirely dependent on driving and braking style... I'm still using my original OEM front and rear rotors on my '06 with 37k miles, which was delivered in March of '06, despite probably 25 or more track days and 30-40 (I've lost count) autocross days. They are just now starting to show a slight bit of grooving. So, it all depends... BTW, all cross-drilled rotors (although the holes in our rotors are cast into them) will get groves when they get a lot of wear on them.

I would second KS-CS's recommendation to contact site sponsor Craig at Rennstore. He can point you toward some pads that will have less dust.

brad

lisocayman · #6 05-07-2009, 03:57 PM

I've got 27K miles on mine and I'm on my 3 set of front rotors, oh course I have 25 track days on the car too

.. I think your front wear is normal, backs seem strange as I'm still on my first set in the back, I mic them myself and everything seems fine.

Schwabe · #7 05-07-2009, 05:07 PM

Not to stir the pot but I see way too often brake lights flash in front of me. I have a colleague who needed new rotors on his Jeep Wrangler withing 20K miles. People are constantly tipping their brakes. I have original pads and rotors on my CS after 20K miles. Same on my commuting mule a '06 Jetta TDI with 82K miles on it.

Now of course if you track a lot you will see more wear, especially with more aggressive pads. Again, I see way too much red light in front of me, also not decisive, one-time breaking for turn-in. People are breaking, letting go, re-breaking while I am just down shifting. I am three gears down before I apply the break. With a tip you do not have as many gears to work with but don't break and let the car down shift for you, force the downshift and let the engine slow some down for you, keeps the whole car more planted and you will need to break less then leaving it in a higher gear going through the turn.

jderiansf · #8 05-07-2009, 11:13 PM

Would you consider cryogenic treated rotors?
Its supposed to decrease wear.
They slowly bring the rotors (or engine parts etc.) down to about 300 below zero. Then slowly bring them back up.
This is to re-align the molecules etc. which is supposed to make the rotors much less prone to wear.

I'm going to send my stock replacement rotors to have them done. It costs about $25 per rotor.

diabolus · #9 06-05-2009, 12:34 PM

For the brake dust problem, I highly recommend picking up a gallon of Meguiar's Wheel Brightener. Dilute it 3:1 with water and spray it on your wheels. Most of the time, I don't even need to use a brush to agitate any of the dirt/dust off the wheels. When I do need to use a brush, I've found that the EZ-detail brush works VERY well for getting between the many spokes on the Sport Designs.

Keep in mind that this stuff is acidic, though, and should not be used on non-clearcoated (generally aftermarket) wheels.

DMN987S · #10 06-05-2009, 01:29 PM

This is the best thing I have found for Sport Design Wheels
Uber Spoke Brush only 10 bucks

**blueone** · #11 06-05-2009, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Schwabe

I see way too much red light in front of me, also not decisive, one-time breaking for turn-in. People are breaking, letting go, re-breaking while I am just down shifting. I am three gears down before I apply the break. With a tip you do not have as many gears to work with but don't break and let the car down shift for you, force the downshift and let the engine slow some down for you, keeps the whole car more planted and you will need to break less then leaving it in a higher gear going through the turn.

Downshifting and engine braking are ok, I suppose, but transmission and clutch parts are much more expensive to replace than brake parts. The pros and cons of downshifting to slow the car seems to be a popular subject for debate on every forum I've posted on. Personally, I think it's a bad idea. Downshifting is just to match target engine speed with vehicle speed by my way of thinking, but others like to downshift through every gear as they approach a stop. I don't know if there's a proper strategy and an improper one, but one could reasonably argue the folks using their brakes rather than their clutches and synchros are wiser.

beez · #12 06-05-2009, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Schwabe

Not to stir the pot but I see way too often brake lights flash in front of me. I have a colleague who needed new rotors on his Jeep Wrangler withing 20K miles. People are constantly tipping their brakes. I have original pads and rotors on my CS after 20K miles. Same on my commuting mule a '06 Jetta TDI with 82K miles on it.

Now of course if you track a lot you will see more wear, especially with more aggressive pads. Again, I see way too much red light in front of me, also not decisive, one-time breaking for turn-in. People are breaking, letting go, re-breaking while I am just down shifting. I am three gears down before I apply the break. With a tip you do not have as many gears to work with but don't break and let the car down shift for you, force the downshift and let the engine slow some down for you, keeps the whole car more planted and you will need to break less then leaving it in a higher gear going through the turn.

Originally Posted by blueone

Downshifting and engine braking are ok, I suppose, but transmission and clutch parts are much more expensive to replace than brake parts. The pros and cons of downshifting to slow the car seems to be a popular subject for debate on every forum I've posted on. Personally, I think it's a bad idea. Downshifting is just to match target engine speed with vehicle speed by my way of thinking, but others like to downshift through every gear as they approach a stop. I don't know if there's a proper strategy and an improper one, but one could reasonably argue the folks using their brakes rather than their clutches and synchros are wiser.

I break this into two types of downshifting...

Recreational downshifting: Done basically out of boredom - rowing down through the gears while approaching a stoplight or other reason to stop or slow down the car. It's probably not all that bad for the car, but if you do it all the time, eventually there will be more wear to the clutch and gearbox, which is more expensive to replace than the brake pads/rotors. Personally, I don't do this - I use the brakes to slow the car, keep the car in whatever gear its in, and just before I come to a stop, I put in the clutch and come to a stop.

Downshifting on the track: Which like blueone says is really for getting the car into the correct gear for the other end of a corner. In this instance, you should not use the gearbox to slow down the car when entering a turn, with either a manual or auto transmission. When you get to the braking point, you hit the brakes, and then begin to downshift to the gear you'll need to exit the turn. With a manual, you're heel & toeing to match the revs, in an auto, sequential, or PDK, you're pushing the buttons, all while you're hard on the brakes. You brake once only, and shift down as necessary. If you're using engine braking on the track, you'll be wearing out your drive-train quite prematurely.

Again, brakes are a lot less expensive to replace then any one component if your drive-line.

brad

**blueone** · #13 06-05-2009, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by beez

[/B]Recreational downshifting:[/B] Done basically out of boredom - rowing down through the gears while approaching a stoplight or other reason to stop or slow down the car. It's probably not all that bad for the car, but if you do it all the time, eventually there will be more wear to the clutch and gearbox, which is more expensive to replace than the brake pads/rotors. Personally, I don't do this - I use the brakes to slow the car, keep the car in whatever gear its in, and just before I come to a stop, I put in the clutch and come to a stop.

You and I are on the same page. I can't prove that downshifting to slow the car wears out the driveline faster, but intuition says it's got to be so. (When we started dating Mrs. Blueone and I had a deep discussion about this, her being a downshift-slower and all, and let's just say she learned the proper blueone-approved driving technique and we were able to get married.) I also like the driver behind me to see brake lights when I'm slowing; it might wake them up from their phoning/texting/drinking/eating/makeup/tunes and keep them from bashing me in the bumper.

DMN987S · #14 06-05-2009, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by beez

I break this into two types of downshifting...

Recreational downshifting: Done basically out of boredom - rowing down through the gears while approaching a stoplight or other reason to stop or slow down the car. It's probably not all that bad for the car, but if you do it all the time, eventually there will be more wear to the clutch and gearbox, which is more expensive to replace than the brake pads/rotors. Personally, I don't do this - I use the brakes to slow the car, keep the car in whatever gear its in, and just before I come to a stop, I put in the clutch and come to a stop.
brad

I have always downshifted and tried not to use my brakes. I kept my last 2 manual trans cars ('78 280Z and '93 Maxima) for 10 years and never had to replace a clutch or transmission. I never thought about the wear and tear, but what you say makes sense. I'm too old to change my driving habits now.

Schwabe · #15 06-05-2009, 03:42 PM

But that is all there is, your opinion, nobody here has posted any premature clutch or drive train wear, but we have upteenth post on the rotors and pads. Especially tip, they don't hardly shift and therefor work so much harder the breaks. 21K miles original rotors and see break lights wear proper shifting would not require any breaking. This is what I am talking about, not hard breaking into a sharp turn that then requires you downshift 3 gears to exit. i am talking about an s-combo wear hesitant brake lights come on in front of me where the proper gear wo0uld keep the tension in your suspension and the right rpm on the engione keep everything tight, rather then high rpms that make the car feel lose and require braking.

Gator Bite · #16 06-05-2009, 03:50 PM

I have >21,000 miles and 6 track days on my car. My front pads are pretty much toast, and my front rotors are showing signs of wear (smooth grooving between vent holes, tiny cracking, etc....). I expect that I'll probably get another 10,000+ miles out of my rotors. Considering the pounding I give them on the track, I do not consider this premature.

Originally Posted by beez

I agree with the above posts - pad and rotor wear are entirely dependent on driving and braking style... I'm still using my original OEM front and rear rotors on my '06 with 37k miles, which was delivered in March of '06, despite probably 25 or more track days and 30-40 (I've lost count) autocross days. They are just now starting to show a slight bit of grooving. So, it all depends... BTW, all cross-drilled rotors (although the holes in our rotors are cast into them) will get groves when they get a lot of wear on them.

I would second KS-CS's recommendation to contact site sponsor Craig at Rennstore. He can point you toward some pads that will have less dust.

brad

Beez hits about 45 mph on the track, so you might not want to use his example....... (Just teasing

. He's a Red group instructor. I'm sure he's beating his brakes harder than most of us could imagine.)

**blueone** · #17 06-05-2009, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by DMN987S

I have always downshifted and tried not to use my brakes. I kept my last 2 manual trans cars ('78 280Z and '93 Maxima) for 10 years and never had to replace a clutch or transmission. I never thought about the wear and tear, but what you say makes sense. I'm too old to change my driving habits now.

Mrs. Blueone gave me these same arguments. She sacrificed for marital peace. (I chose well.) You don't have to, so downshift to your heart's content.

**blueone** · #18 06-05-2009, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Schwabe

But that is all there is, your opinion...

Absolutely. I may be obnoxious, but I know what I don't know.

notquitefob · #19 06-05-2009, 04:17 PM

beez is absolutely right. all things equal brakes are much cheaper to replace than your drivetrain. when in doubt, brake with your brakes, not your engine.

I must admit i'm guilty of option 1: "recreational downshifting" but i rev match on the way down rather than letting the drivetrain do all the work.