Planet 9

ARCuhTEK · #1 12-31-2008, 09:22 AM

First off, this thread is NOT for a Cayman. And it is about more than just a Signal Processor.

This is for my 2008 Ford F150 SuperCrew Cab (four doors) pick up truck.

Attached is the image of the sound system I have designed for the truck. I have all of the equipment shown, except the sub amp and the signal processor.

I have asked for others opinions on car audio forums, but now I would like a different perspective. Here are my questions, most are pretty simple.

1. 1100watts RMS. I started off with two McIntosh amps and about 600 w. and NO signal processor. I feel like the system is getting a little ridiculous. The issue came up that when I bridge my largest amp (MC431 in the diagram) it does not produce the wattage that I THOUGHT.....instead of 400W it only produces 200w (confirmed with McIntosh) when two channels are combined/bridged, which is HALF the power for the sub I already own. I prefer to keep the sub powered with its rating. It is rated for 200w (actually 200-500w RMS) but that is at the bottom of its range. Here is the sub.

Should I proceed with the JL Audio 500 watt mono amp? If I do, the diagram shows that the bridged channels that WERE going to the subs, will not be dedicated to the midbass in the doors). From a purely "too" loud standpoint......is this ridiculous?

Just so you know...I am after SQ...I could careless about 1100 watts of power and LOUD. I will probably be more embarrassed to turn up the system and annoy others than I will be driving around shaking office building windows (which I dislike).

2. If the answer is....yes..go with the 500 w mono amp. Do you suggest anything other than the JL? Its a pretty good amp for the price. But I am wide open.

3. I love the idea of the signal processor. I think it is necessary to accomplish the wiring schematic I have shown. But if I went back to my original idea of two amps and 600w, I think I could feasibly eliminate the SP. I might even make the 3 way door set up into a two way and just rely on the factory passive crossovers. Here is the issue....I am NOT an audiophile. I would love to be an audiophile, but I have had permanent hearing loss in one ear since age 2. I cannot even hear stereo. This is also another reason I will not CRANK the stereo to 150 db (even if it would do it). So am I wasting my money? If you think I should stick with the SP....what SP would you buy. Here are my current research efforts (I am new to SP):

a. Zapco DSP6-SL Seems a bit of an overkill and requires special DIN to RCA on input and output since I have old school amps. $800.

b. Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.2 This is probably my current favorite because of cost and bluetooth capability for tweakng the settings.

c. Alpine F1 Status. There are several to choose from, but only some will work without a Alpine HU. Pricey!

4. I have basically decided to completely eliminate any rear fill in the system. Your thoughts?

Here is the diagram.

Thanks ahead of time.

ARCuhTEK · #2 01-01-2009, 05:11 PM

No one?????

shellshocked · #3 01-02-2009, 09:29 PM

I have installed a few systems. I would use a separate amp for the sub - yes 200w will probably be all you need for everyday use but when you want to bump a little you will wish you had the JL - especially if you go for a sealed sub box design. I don't know much about the AVIC but if it has crossover capability you could run a two way system and use the rear channel for the tweeters (front channel for the mid) and not need a processor. I question however the active 3 way system - I think you are in for a lot of tweaking but hey that is part of the fun. In terms of signal processors - zapco is top of the line. If money is not an issue go for it.

ARCuhTEK · #4 01-02-2009, 10:25 PM

Thanks! Yes I have to say I am perhaps regretting the three way front stage purchase. But it is set (for now). I have narrowed the SP processor purchase down to:

1. RF 3Sixty.2
2. Zapco DSP6-SL
3. Audison Bit1 (plus AutoEq if they ever release it).

Those range from $300 to $1000 for the Audison pair.

Now I just have to find someone to install it.

shellshocked · #5 01-03-2009, 10:33 AM

Archutek - have you considered doing it yourself? I did my F150 and it was not that hard, it just took time. You have a lot of room to work in a truck which is a huge plus. The biggest factor in the sound will be the install (more so than the components) so either find a good installer and work with him (discuss the install and your ideas on what you want) or do it yourself and take a little time. Sound deadening, speaker mounting, sub enclosure all make a big difference and it just takes time and attention to detail.

As a side note, I did an install on my current truck a Ford Sport Trac and I removed the interior and did a complete interior sound deadening - floors, firewall, back wall, door panels, and also installed closed cell foam where I could. It took two full days but it make the truck whisper quiet.

ARCuhTEK · #6 01-03-2009, 09:34 PM

Oh yes....I have considered. I am "------" this close to doing it myself. But for me...it will take a solid week to do it. I am way too meticulous...slow and calculated.

IN the way of sound deadening...can you offer some advice? Where do I stop? Doors (even if no speakers will be in the doors?), rear cab wall? Floor?...ceiling?

To do it all...seems like a LOT of work.

I also do not have a really good place to perform this work, or at least a place to lock down with a skeleton of a truck for 2-5 days.

I shy away from mechanical work, because I am afraid I will get 50% into it and find something that I cannot fix, or something that will frustrate me and cause me to give up and have to hire an installer urgently anyway.

I also worry about warranty. Does applying sound deadening void any warranties. That may sound like a silly questions, but will the install not require me to tinker/move electrical stuff?

Finally, I am out of touch with things like:

1. Do I need a second battery?
2. I know what a "cap" is, but do I need one (pretty easy to figure that out with some research) but is it really necessary?
3. I will need a **** load of cables. What is the best source to purchase these in quantity and quality?
4. I see multiple fuse blocks, ground blocks, power distribution blocks in todays high end installs....i guess I need to read up on these?
5. How do you determine the proper wire gauge and not just for one component, but multiple?
6. I hear about people having to put new alternators is....whew!
7. Speaker placement...for me is stock. I am NOT making custom enclosures or altering the interior. I dont care how bad it sounds to the audiophile.
8. I am hearing impaired...I will not be able to fine tune a sound processor on my own.
9. Time alignment....OMG....I dont even know where to start.
10. I have VERY limited tools. I would have to borrow a table saw just to make the amp rack behind the rear seat.
11. If I do this myself...it will take me more than 2 weeks to think it through, order my materials, cables...etc. I will have to draw wiring diagrams and everything...thats just me. But the best part.....NO MATTER WHAT...I will forget something. In the middle of the install I will figure this out and that missing part will be a special order, two week lead time item...that will render my vehicle useless for a month. I guarentee it! LOL

The good news:

1. Believe it or not, I am not entirely intimidated by this install. I think I can do it. I am pretty careful and anal and generally do my research.
2. I have all owners manuals for all my equipment and I dont mind reading them.
3. The sub enclosure is already built and ready to go...that was the easy part (used to be the hard part).
4. I have a good friend who is of a similar level of audio knowledge. He could help me figure out some problems if the *** hit the fan. But he is kind of half assed in his patience and approach.

I know this for sure.....if I can do all of the above...and succeed, I firmly believe it will be a better install than I can get anywhere, short of a competition shop, which will charge me in excess of $3,000 for the work. I really dont want to spend another $3,000.

shellshocked · #7 01-04-2009, 11:57 AM

Archutek,
IN the way of sound deadening...can you offer some advice? Where do I stop? Doors (even if no speakers will be in the doors?), rear cab wall? Floor?...ceiling?

To do it all...seems like a LOT of work.

I also do not have a really good place to perform this work, or at least a place to lock down with a skeleton of a truck for 2-5 days.

I shy away from mechanical work, because I am afraid I will get 50% into it and find something that I cannot fix, or something that will frustrate me and cause me to give up and have to hire an installer urgently anyway.

I also worry about warranty. Does applying sound deadening void any warranties. That may sound like a silly questions, but will the install not require me to tinker/move electrical stuff?
Yes it is a lot of work. With regards to how much, I found that doing the doors and floor yielded the best results. The doors are not that hard just take off the panels which you need to do for the speaker install anyway. I did not notice much if any difference when I did the rear doors but did notice a difference with the front doors. Regarding the floor - it is harder because you have to remove the seats and carpet but it did make a difference. Regarding the rear bulkhead - I did not notice much if any difference. I did not do the headliner - I looked at it but it was more than I had strength left to tackle - so short answer is floor and front doors will yield biggest improvement.

Finally, I am out of touch with things like:

1. Do I need a second battery?
2. I know what a "cap" is, but do I need one (pretty easy to figure that out with some research) but is it really necessary?
3. I will need a **** load of cables. What is the best source to purchase these in quantity and quality?
4. I see multiple fuse blocks, ground blocks, power distribution blocks in todays high end installs....i guess I need to read up on these?
5. How do you determine the proper wire gauge and not just for one component, but multiple?
6. I hear about people having to put new alternators is....whew!
7. Speaker placement...for me is stock. I am NOT making custom enclosures or altering the interior. I dont care how bad it sounds to the audiophile.
8. I am hearing impaired...I will not be able to fine tune a sound processor on my own.
9. Time alignment....OMG....I dont even know where to start.
10. I have VERY limited tools. I would have to borrow a table saw just to make the amp rack behind the rear seat.
11. If I do this myself...it will take me more than 2 weeks to think it through, order my materials, cables...etc. I will have to draw wiring diagrams and everything...thats just me. But the best part.....NO MATTER WHAT...I will forget something. In the middle of the install I will figure this out and that missing part will be a special order, two week lead time item...that will render my vehicle useless for a month. I guarentee it! LOL

Regarding battery, caps and alternator - you don't need this for the system you have - don't waste your time or money. Regarding fuse blocks and cable. Spend some time and figure out how you want to run the power cables for the amps and where you want to mount the fuse block (on the fender well or firewall are typical) You can order the cable or go to a local install shop - the power cable and fuse block is not cheap but this is not where you want to cut corners - a good high conductor count cable is much much easier to route and install due to high flexibility. Also there are a couple of types of fuses (one looks like a big version of a normal glass fuse and the other looks like a flat terminal. The glass tube type only goes up to 100Amp if I remember right so I would look at the other type. Go to caraudio.com they have cable sizing guides and fuse info. Regarding speaker install - using the stock locations in the F150 worked well for me - just focus on deadening and sealing the doors as much as possible - also put a backwave pad behind the speaker on the outer door panel to break up the reflected wave - it made a big difference on mine. Sounds like you should have someone do the basic install and you can come back later and do any sound deadening at your leisure. Hope this helps!

ARCuhTEK · #8 01-04-2009, 06:00 PM

I am inching closer to doing this myself. One day I have the mental strength...the next I am like....ahh just pay for it!!!

I am not familiar with a backwave pad. Let me go research.

on another note, I did find a very high candidate for a sound processor. It is an Audio Controls DQXS

So now it is between this unit and the Bit One

I am under the influence that the Audison unit is tried and true and the Bit One, while incredible, just came out 30 days ago and is untested, not many people are experts on this unit...etc.

So, since it is a close race, I think I will choose the AC DQXS.

Now off to make this happen somehow.

.....oh...late breaking news......I just got a quote from a professional installer..... $5,250 for LABOR only.

Baaahahahahahaha

Time to roll my sleeves up.

Courtney · #9 01-04-2009, 06:17 PM

>>>>Time to roll my sleeves up.

Given the meticulous detail you've exhibited in a couple other threads . . . I, as the owner of about the same Ford Pick-Up, am cheering you on hoping to get details, pointers and photos.

My guess is, simply from reading your posts, that you'll derive as much satisfaction and enjoyment from the install than you will the completed project.

I'm impressed and am casting my vote for you as the "Preferred Installer".

Court

ARCuhTEK · #10 01-04-2009, 09:37 PM

Thanks!!!

The decision was made tonight......

I am doing the install.

I have already ordered all the wiring, cables, interconnects, fuse blocks, distribution blocks....etc.

I am going to sell my Focal Utpoia 3 ways and get a 2 way set up however.

I am also dishing the JL Audio 500.1v2 mono block amp and going for something else perhaps an Audison 500 w amp. Maybe another MAC....if I can find a decent one.

shellshocked · #11 01-05-2009, 10:31 AM

Sounds like you are on your way! Let us know how it progresses. $5000 for the install is just insane. Here is a link to dynamats version of the back-wave pad (I have no clue if this is the right name for it). Several people make them. I actually made my own with some egg crate packing foam I had - it did help the mid bass.

DynaXorb

ARCuhTEK · #12 01-05-2009, 01:28 PM

Oh yes I have heard of these.

Did you apply your dynamat in one single layer or more?

shellshocked · #13 01-05-2009, 06:16 PM

Regarding the dynamat - generally one layer on the doors (I did both the inside of the door on the outside sheet metal and the interior face of the door where the speaker mounts) On the floor I did two layers although one probably would have been fine. Thunk the big surfaces and if one layer does not sound like it did the trick put another layer on but in all honesty I think there is little return on two layers if you use a good mat. Also I have used Dynamat and Raamat. Dynamat is good but expensive - you can do two layers of the raamat for less than one layer of dynamat, although I think you can get some good deals on ebay for dynamat. Also just one recommendation - get the cheap wood roller for application, it makes it easier and saves your hands. Here is a link to a posting with pictures of an F150 that has extreme sound deadening to give you an idea.

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showth...install&page=4

ARCuhTEK · #14 01-06-2009, 04:29 PM

I went with a product that several people have recommended. Damplifier Pro. I ordered it today, along with the roller you suggested. I also got something they call Luxury Liner Pro, which is essentially the absorption for the waveback sound from the rear of the door speakers.

I also settled on an sub amp. DLS A6 class A/B amp with 500 w x 1 at 4-ohms

Here is a pic:

Here are the specs:
DLS - Products

Now I only have to decide if I want to keep my Focal Utopia 3-ways or purchase a new two way set. I think I will be better off with the 2-ways due to the stock door locations not supporting a 3 way set up. I really dont want to start making new holes.
I think I will wait to make this decision during disassembly, at which point I can snoop around and see if I can find some space to mount the third component.

shellshocked · #15 01-06-2009, 07:39 PM

I like that amp - now your talkin! I bet you can find room to mount the 3-ways when you take a look. I have not used damplifier but it is suppose to be good stuff.

ARCuhTEK · #16 01-06-2009, 11:29 PM

Technically, this thread has seen it conclusion, since I have my SP and Sub amp squared away..... But I may just keep it going for the sake of the install.

BTW....I have found a source for the Audison Bit One. But as I get closer to purchasing it....people are saying I need RTA equipment..etc to be able to properly tweak a SP/EQ/Xo. I have never installed one....

I sure as heck dont want to spend $800 and not be able to dial it in! Stay tuned.

ARCuhTEK · #17 01-08-2009, 03:58 PM

Oh its an exciting day.....

UPS showed up.....

1. All wiring, cables, plugs, connectors, fuse blocks, distribution blocks etc. are now on hand!

2. My DLS A6 mono amp showed up! It is SWEEETTTT.... I should take photos!

I am now waiting on:

1. My sound deadening.....shheesh...expensive.

2. My Audison Bit One sound processor.

The best news of all?
Through an online forum called DIYMA I was able to make friends with a guy who lives 30 minutes from me and has a laptop based RTA setup, as well as access to a Fluke Scopemeter. OMG!! that is MAJOR.

You see....Asheville is a beautiful place, but it is severly lacking in many amenities. Sure, you can get electronics any day of the week, but if you want custom anything, high end stuff...specialty...FORGGEEDDABOUT IT!

Which is why I rarely dream about specific mods to my CS. I know it will be almost impossible to find an installer. Heck I sent my CS seven hours one way to DC to have the Quaife TBD installed....paid a guy to drive it there, spend the night in a hotel and drive back (I was in Italy)!

So to find a guy who competes in car audio with specialty tuning equipment AND lives 30 mins from me? NO WAY. All I can say is Thank God for the internet!

All this having been said.....the sound processor decision is FINAL. Done. Now just time to go order it!

ARCuhTEK · #18 03-09-2009, 04:25 PM

Well folks.....

I did indeed decide to install this system myself. And she is now finished. WOW.....1200 watts in a supercrew truck cab. Sounds like a live concert!

I logged the install on a car audio forum thread and you can read all about it here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...w-install.html

I am finishing the log in the next 2 days but it basically took me 30 days to do the install and about 100 hours of my time.

I will post more pictures in the next day or so. I really only had one hiccup, which I think is the sound processor (mfr recall right now) but other than that.....she sure is sweet. Changes everything about a "daily driver"!

advantyper · #19 03-09-2009, 08:05 PM

nice setup! I would get rip of the Focal Utopia. have you heard Morel Elates? They sound better then Utopia IMO.

ARCuhTEK · #20 03-11-2009, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by advantyper

nice setup! I would get rip of the Focal Utopia. have you heard Morel Elates? They sound better then Utopia IMO.

You and I talked about this a long time ago. I have been unable to get an audition of the Morels (of any kind).

I have the Focal K2P mid bass and they are really rocking I have to say. I am happy with them at the moment. My diagram needs to be updated because I did not use any other speakers shown in that diagram. I am wired and set up for a 3 way system, but I only installed a 2 way system. Other than the Utopia, I have no mid range in mind until I decide what to do about its location. Right now it is pretty far from my mind. For the tweeters, I have the Focal TN51 from the early Utopia package which I do not intend to install. I purchased a Hybrid Audio Technology L1 Pro tweeter set and a L1v2 set. These are easy to install and uninstall so I will try them both.

I also purchased a HAT Legatia L6 for an alternative mid bass but that sucker is every so slightly too big for the stock location. So I am waiting until summer to decide on how to fit it....about the same time I will tinker with the mid range.

My Audison Bit One is a thing of beauty, but I have a factory defective unit that is emitting a constant digital beeping akin to Morse Code. I am trying to get it resolved now. I cannot wait, because when it is not beeping....OMG it is really something else. Everyone asks me where all my speakers are and are really surprised when I tell them I have less speakers now than when the truck rolled off the dealership lot! Oh well.....SQ all the way!