Planet 9

light speed · #1 03-14-2010, 11:35 PM

Southern California and in the Mountains above Malibu have some of the BEST Porsche roads. One of my favorites is Latigo Canyon. I've carved this 10.1 mile twister with Miatas, my old Lotus Elise, so it was the time to drive this with a Cayman S.

I've NEVER taken Latigo Canyon with TOTAL CONFIDENCE until I drove this with the Cayman S! What a thrill! The esses, tight hairpins and change in elevations turn this into a amazing rollercoaster ride.

I've never timed the road from begining (PCH) to end (Kanan Road), but I'm sure this was the fastest yet.

What made it amazing was the fact that I was driving a '07 CS with TIPTRONIC tranny!!
I'm always been partial toward MT's, but this tiptronic was AWESOME!

I'm ready to try my '06 CS (with 6-speed) and see what it does.

It would be fun to do it again with a group of Caymans! Just give me a time and date!

--Hal

**Gilles** · #2 03-15-2010, 12:52 PM

[QUOTE=light speed;443625] One of my favorites is Latigo Canyon. I

+ 1 on Latigo Canyon

jcbuschwacker · #3 03-15-2010, 02:01 PM

Count me in. Sounds great

kirkemon · #4 03-15-2010, 03:45 PM

Love Latigo.
I started driving it in the mid 1970s when there were a lot less houses. My Ducati is a little much for the tight curves and I have the most fun on my RD400F Daytona Special. Mostly 2nd gear action.
Can't wait to rip it when my CS arrives.

ccarver · #5 03-15-2010, 06:12 PM

As a local who has enjoyed these roads for many years,
and has seen many of them, including Latigo, get overcrowded and
overpatrolled by local law enforcement, I would ask that people please
use a little common sense and discretion in posting this stuff all over the internet.
Many of these places aren't the same to drive as they used to be because of all the internet advertising.
Talk about it in private clubs, groups, whatever. But making open internet posts about it will
sooner or later make them unenjoyable for everyone else who has always driven them and has respected their under the radar status.
Personally I'd just make a post to go on a generic mountain or canyon drive etc. around So.Cal.
PS For those of you who are dirt bike riders, do you think you know all the places to ride in So.Cal.?'
You don't.
We figured this out a long time ago and now it's like stealing from your brother to post these places on the internet.
Peace out.

**Interpol** · #6 03-15-2010, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by ccarver

As a local who has enjoyed these roads for many years,
and has seen many of them, including Latigo, get overcrowded and
overpatrolled by local law enforcement, I would ask that people please
use a little common sense and discretion in posting this stuff all over the internet.
Many of these places aren't the same to drive as they used to be because of all the internet advertising.
Talk about it in private clubs, groups, whatever. But making open internet posts about it will
sooner or later make them unenjoyable for everyone else who has always driven them and has respected their under the radar status.
Personally I'd just make a post to go on a generic mountain or canyon drive etc. around So.Cal.
PS For those of you who are dirt bike riders, do you think you know all the places to ride in So.Cal.?'
You don't.
We figured this out a long time ago and now it's like stealing from your brother to post these places on the internet.
Peace out.

ccarver, I sent you a PM. While I understand your plea, what you are requesting goes against the policy of (generally) free discussion of ideas and topics that any good discussion forum would allow.

If people want to keep a driving route secret, by all means keep it secret and don't post it here. However, this site has a Recommended Driving Routes forum and people are free to post whatever routes they feel are enjoyable to drive here, as long as the road is legal to drive on.

Public roads are public roads, and they are free for anyone to drive on regardless of how they obtained the information about it. No one person or group of people have the authority to dictate how this information is shared or discussed. Sorry if you feel 'your' road/route was ruined because of it, but that's the breaks. Public information is just that - public.

ccarver · #7 03-15-2010, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Interpol

Public roads are public roads, and they are free for anyone to drive on regardless of how they obtained the information about it. No one person or group of people have the authority to dictate how this information is shared or discussed. Sorry if you feel 'your' road/route was ruined because of it, but that's the breaks. Public information is just that - public.

Agreed, they are public and free to be driven on and discussed.
A request for people to consider the consequences of their actions regarding said freedoms doesn't impose on that imho.
Point being, there was mention of "timing" this public route which is a slippery slope to problems on public roads. Especially these.
Then broadcast "timing" the route on the internet and we can see where that might go for the route and the people on it.

Please don't characterize this about being about my "your" road, as you stated. That was an unnecessary dig.
My concern is for everyone who has or will enjoy these roads, including the residents.
Maybe it's the people who are reading this thread, heck maybe it's the original poster.
A closure/permanent change of an abused public route is a sad event for everyone.
And even if we try to only remove the offenders as we spoke about (as street racing is a hot item in so.cal. right now)
it is usually a wide-ranging permanent change that takes place rather than precise removals of individuals.
And once those broad strokes are in force (closures, fences, speed bumps, re-routes etc.) they are usually almost impossible to undo.
To most people reading this, it may seem like a stretch because they haven't seen it around their areas.
The off roading world has been fighting it for a long time, and as more internet traffic,
with a given % of misuse/abusers/immature/street racers etc.
use our small, signature public routes, there is the real possibility of the broad changes above.

It has been discussed at the local gov't level regarding adjusting the roads adjacent to and in the vicinity of Latigo Canyon.
So it's something to think about and imho is more complex than just the idea of how broadly we disseminate it on the internet.
That's just the quick way to reduce exposure although it is a larger issue.
Sorry for the thread detour (pun intended) but it is something for everyone to discuss and be considerate of.

ChrisF · #8 03-15-2010, 10:35 PM

Latigo is great. My only suggestion would be to take any planned group trips to PM or email. I suggest this not because the info is inappropriate but based on experience on other forums where LEO's have lurked and busted groups of enthusiasts going out on these type of drives. Sounds silly but it has happened.

If you live in Socal and haven't already heard of Operation Safe Canyons, you should educate yourself. Taking a spirited drive nowadays is like russian roulette with 3 bullets in the chamber: 1. LEO's are aware we like canyons; 2. writing you up generates revenue; 3. writing you up spreads the word they mean business. As most will point out, unless you obey the speed limit at all times on a canyon run, taking it to the track is now cheaper

light speed · #9 03-16-2010, 12:05 AM

Now I feel REALLY bad!

I gave away road nirvana!

I've been driving Latigo Canyon for many years, for pure pleasure and the amazing driving experience. I ALWAYS slow down in the residential areas at the speed limit (25mph) and I'm aware of the encounters along this road (Bicyclists, Motorcycles, pedestrians, radar etc.) and I know the road, the blind corners and each curve in the 10.1 mile asphalt route. I NEVER "race" on public streets. Unfortunately, most people are not familiar with Latigo and that's were the problems arise.

I'm placing my Cayman S's for sale tomorrow. Maybe I can find and old 1988 Buick Park Lane and fade into the sunset. Hey, I'm too old for this anyway.

--Hal

If you want speed, take it to the track!

**Interpol** · #10 03-16-2010, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by ccarver

Agreed, they are public and free to be driven on and discussed.
A request for people to consider the consequences of their actions regarding said freedoms doesn't impose on that imho.
Point being, there was mention of "timing" this public route which is a slippery slope to problems on public roads. Especially these.
Then broadcast "timing" the route on the internet and we can see where that might go for the route and the people on it.

Please don't characterize this about being about my "your" road, as you stated. That was an unnecessary dig.
My concern is for everyone who has or will enjoy these roads, including the residents.
Maybe it's the people who are reading this thread, heck maybe it's the original poster.
A closure/permanent change of an abused public route is a sad event for everyone.
And even if we try to only remove the offenders as we spoke about (as street racing is a hot item in so.cal. right now)
it is usually a wide-ranging permanent change that takes place rather than precise removals of individuals.
And once those broad strokes are in force (closures, fences, speed bumps, re-routes etc.) they are usually almost impossible to undo.
To most people reading this, it may seem like a stretch because they haven't seen it around their areas.
The off roading world has been fighting it for a long time, and as more internet traffic,
with a given % of misuse/abusers/immature/street racers etc.
use our small, signature public routes, there is the real possibility of the broad changes above.

It has been discussed at the local gov't level regarding adjusting the roads adjacent to and in the vicinity of Latigo Canyon.
So it's something to think about and imho is more complex than just the idea of how broadly we disseminate it on the internet.
That's just the quick way to reduce exposure although it is a larger issue.
Sorry for the thread detour (pun intended) but it is something for everyone to discuss and be considerate of.

So I'm not sure what you're advocating here. Are you suggesting that we close down this forum, which is specifically for discussion of fun/exciting/recommended driving routes? That's not going to happen.

If anyone here wants to publicize a meet/drive/gathering, by all means go right ahead. We are not talking about offroading or damage to public lands. We all pay taxes to support the building and maintenance of public roads, so there is no call for anyone to feel more privileged than anyone else here. If you are not interested in sharing a fun route with your fellow drivers and enthusiasts here, then you are free to not do so. However - you are NOT free to discourage others from doing so.

The bottom line is, any changes residents want to make to the public roads they live on will pretty much happen regardless of what information is shared. If anyone feels that a particular road/route cannot handle a group of cars on a run, then suggest another venue. Problem solved.

Again, the purpose of this forum is to share information and the suggestion that people withhold information to 'preserve' some imaginary entitlement to a road runs completely counter to why these forums were established in the first place. As long as it's legal, it's fair game. If you don't like it, too bad, but you need to suck it up.

Further discussion of this topic needs to be taken elsewhere. Any more threadjacks will be deleted.

Light speed, you have nothing to apologize for. If you come across any other fun routes, we would love to hear about them.

light speed · #11 03-16-2010, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Interpol

So I'm not sure what you're advocating here. Are you suggesting that we close down this forum, which is specifically for discussion of fun/exciting/recommended driving routes? That's not going to happen.

If anyone here wants to publicize a meet/drive/gathering, by all means go right ahead. We are not talking about offroading or damage to public lands. We all pay taxes to support the building and maintenance of public roads, so there is no call for anyone to feel more privileged than anyone else here. If you are not interested in sharing a fun route with your fellow drivers and enthusiasts here, then you are free to not do so. However - you are NOT free to discourage others from doing so.

The bottom line is, any changes residents want to make to the public roads they live on will pretty much happen regardless of what information is shared. If anyone feels that a particular road/route cannot handle a group of cars on a run, then suggest another venue. Problem solved.

Again, the purpose of this forum is to share information and the suggestion that people withhold information to 'preserve' some imaginary entitlement to a road runs completely counter to why these forums were established in the first place. As long as it's legal, it's fair game. If you don't like it, too bad, but you need to suck it up.

Further discussion of this topic needs to be taken elsewhere. Any more threadjacks will be deleted.

Light speed, you have nothing to apologize for. If you come across any other fun routes, we would love to hear about them.

THANK YOU INTERPOL!!!

I'm NOT going to sell my Cayman S's after all!

--Hal

**K-Man S** · #12 03-16-2010, 11:46 AM

I think we have a disconnect here and yes I think some things should be taken to PM etc.

If *I* understand it correctly, ccarver isn't so much worried about the fact that people are talking about Latigo Canyon, but rather that they may be making specific plans to run the canyon on specific days/times.

While we DO encourage people to talk about routes, we do NOT encourage people to talk about doing things as specific times/places publicly on this site. Why? Well one example is that a group of Audi owners did such a thing last year and several of them had their cars stolen while parked overnight at the hotel where they were staying because they shared the info on the Audiworld website.

Our own roc-n-croc rallies have moved to having the logistics discussed privately for just this reason.

So yes I think it is fine to generically list sights, such as "I love Latigo Canyon runs on the weekend" and it is another thing to say "Let's get 20 owners together and run Latigo canyon at 5pm on Saturday".

Am I making sense?

Hopefully I am on target here, but if I'm off target please let me know.

ccarver · #13 03-16-2010, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by K-Man S

I think we have a disconnect here and yes I think some things should be taken to PM etc.

If *I* understand it correctly, ccarver isn't so much worried about the fact that people are talking about Latigo Canyon, but rather that they may be making specific plans to run the canyon on specific days/times.

Thanks Ken, exactly.
And publically posting the potential "lap times" ......
As Chris also stated above, along with your points, all something to think about.

**Interpol** · #14 03-16-2010, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by K-Man S

I think we have a disconnect here and yes I think some things should be taken to PM etc.

If *I* understand it correctly, ccarver isn't so much worried about the fact that people are talking about Latigo Canyon, but rather that they may be making specific plans to run the canyon on specific days/times.

While we DO encourage people to talk about routes, we do NOT encourage people to talk about doing things as specific times/places publicly on this site. Why? Well one example is that a group of Audi owners did such a thing last year and several of them had their cars stolen while parked overnight at the hotel where they were staying because they shared the info on the Audiworld website.

Our own roc-n-croc rallies have moved to having the logistics discussed privately for just this reason.

So yes I think it is fine to generically list sights, such as "I love Latigo Canyon runs on the weekend" and it is another thing to say "Let's get 20 owners together and run Latigo canyon at 5pm on Saturday".

Am I making sense?

Hopefully I am on target here, but if I'm off target please let me know.

Thanks for clarifying Ken, but as a point of order, I don't even see a problem with people posting stuff like "Let's meet and run XXXX road this weekend". Hell, I regularly receive emails from my local PCA branch advertising canyon road runs and meets at specific places/times - and these times are publicly posted on official PCA websites. So what's wrong with that?

**K-Man S** · #15 03-16-2010, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Interpol

Thanks for clarifying Ken, but as a point of order, I don't even see a problem with people posting stuff like "Let's meet and run XXXX road this weekend". Hell, I regularly receive emails from my local PCA branch advertising canyon road runs and meets at specific places/times - and these times are publicly posted on official PCA websites. So what's wrong with that?

Well PCA has a big insurance policy and they make everyone sign wavers, if some of our members go ad hoc and there is a problem, say a crash, then who is to blame? If there are no waivers then might some party go after fellow members and/or this site?

If someone wants to organize a run to somplace we can help facilitate that privately for participating members only by giving them a private place to chat about it, or simply point them to another site for actual logistics information, especially if already published elsewhere. An email that goes out to people who are in a club like PCA isn't going out to the whole world either.

As for other websites it is a balancing act, a members only site like PCA might have the information where it isn't easily viewable, or it might just be on some region's website which doesn't get a lot of traffic, once a site gets a lot of traffic then more things have to come into consideration for balancing everything out. In some respects we have to look at this almost on a case by case basis.

**Interpol** · #16 03-16-2010, 12:45 PM

OK, my last comment on this issue, I promise...

Legal issues notwithstanding, my point was that merely sharing information about a great driving road should be encouraged here. Perhaps better words could have been used by the OP and other thread participants, but in no way should illegal activity of any form be tolerated either.

I don't see much of a legal difference between someone crashing during an organized meet/run publicly advertised on a forum versus someone who just saw a post on a forum mentioning how fun a particular road is, and going out on a run by himself. If there is no difference, then maybe this forum SHOULD be shut down.

This does bring me to a real-world example:

tragic accident.. santiago canyon... - E46Fanatics

One person died, arrests were made. The forum was not held legally responsible.

Anyway, I suppose that's a topic to be discussed elsewhere.