Planet 9

I'm just wondering if any CC members in the DFW attended an autocross?

Thinking about giving it a try, but wondering if it will be as fun or as productive as a full blown 2 day DE event. More seat time driving the car at its limits can't hurt, but just want to hear some opinions.

Autocross is fun while you're driving, but it's a whole lot of standing around for maybe 4-5 minutes of adrenaline rush. DE's are more expensive, but offer a lot more seat time, more repetition, and more "natural" maneuvers than you'll encounter in an autocross. Both can offer a valuable learning experience, but I'd rather do a DE any day.

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'08 E90 M3 (replaced '07 Guards Red Cayman S, which will be fondly remembered)
'08 Miata GT
'08 Honda Ridgeline RTL
'07 KTM Super Duke 990
'07 KTM 300 XC-W

please check the local PCA site.

"This school is the perfect introduction on how to attend an Autocross. Students drive exercises in the morning followed by a real Autocross in the afternoon. Students and instructors work the corners to gain experience as an observer as well as a driver. Fun runs at the end give volunteers and instructors a chance to join in as well"


PCA: Maverick Region

With AX, I was able to learn car control much faster without the fear of damaging the car. I'm still too tentative on a track/DE....

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08 WW EvoX MR

Doclin,

Sounds like we may have had something in common, I too am still working on "car control" w/o fear of trashing my car in the process, or better yet "my limits of car contol" that sounds better..

I have not been to any AX events yet, but have done a couple TDE @ MSR. Now that the season is near, I would really like some good skid pad time to dust off the control problem. I guess what I really want to do is just go out and drive the snott out of the car, yet not end up in the tire wall or worse so I can feel the cars limit.

The sad part about tracking a car you love, is wanting to drive it at the limit yet never over the limit for fear of loosing the car.

Anyone have advise on skid pad time, and if it will help?

I was on a trip last spring, we stayed at the hotel at the Texas Motor Speedway. A group there was doing their first AX of the year. It was more of a practice session as everyone was getting as many back to back runs as they wanted.

Check with TMS, it was done on a parking lot on the south side of the speedway near where the hotel exits at the main east west road.

I for one have a lot more fun at AX's than DE's because there is no fear of hurting the car at an AX. You can really push it to the limit and beyond...

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Cayman Club Outsider

I can understand less fear of hurting your car at an autocross, esp. since my car isn't covered on track. Easy solution was to buy a Miata to beat up on the track - it's fun, cheap, and expendable should the worst happen.

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'08 E90 M3 (replaced '07 Guards Red Cayman S, which will be fondly remembered)
'08 Miata GT
'08 Honda Ridgeline RTL
'07 KTM Super Duke 990
'07 KTM 300 XC-W

To answer the question: Total DE track junkie, gave up on AX.

Some of the North Texas AX venues are very hard on tires. Mineral Wells is a very popular spot for PCA and BMWCCA events but the pavement is really rough compared to a race track and tends to chunk the edges of your tires.

IMHO, the driving style necessary to be successful at AX is different from the DE style and track driving. As a DE instructor, I can usually tell when my student does a lot of AX since the steering and brake inputs seem to be more sudden and less smooth. I have always felt that DE/track driving experience made me a better street driver where the AX maneuvers weren't all the helpful on the street.

I have also seen cars damaged at AX. Everything comes with a risk. Considering the number of DEs that I have attended in the last 4 years and the number of incidents that caused damage to cars, I would call the risk very low but definitely present.

From a cost basis, AX less expensive. Brakes and tires last longer and events cost less.

I wouldn't say DE vs Autocross, I'd frame it as DE and Autocross. Both have their purposes, both are learning experiences, and both can be extremely fun!

Autocross (AX)

+ Cheap: In our area typically around $35.00.
+ Very minimal effort/prep to enter: All you need is a helmet and a car in good mechanical condition, and loaner helmets are usually available, so you don’t even need one of those!
+ Safe: Almost no chance of hurting you or your car (OK, anything is possible, but...).
+ "Technical": While the events are low[er] speed, rarely getting out of 2nd gear, the tight turns will teach you a lot about car control, the thresholds of grip, and reading a good line on course.
+ Lots of events run by experienced folks: There’s probably an Autocross (SCCA calls ‘um Solo events) in our immediate area every weekend from March to September, and plenty of events in February, October and November too.

- Short seat time: Runs are typically 45 to 90 seconds, and you usually get 6 to 8 runs... sometimes fewer if the turn-out is large!
- You have to work: You "work the course" once during the day, which involves standing in a parking lot for a couple of hours picking up knocked over traffic cones as other cars race the course.

DE / Open Lapping Days

+ Lots of Seat Time: Like wushuhsu said, up to 80 minutes on course in a day. Usually in groups of 20 minutes each. You’d be surprised how tired you’ll be after 20 minutes ;-)
+ High Speed: Really as fast as you can go depending on the track. This is as close to Road Racing as most folks will ever come!
+ Great Instruction: Pretty much any event you go to, there will be instructors available to help you get the most out of your experience. At most places, you’ll have to have an instructor with you during your first visit.

- More expensive than Autocross: $150 per day sounds about right. I’m not talking about cost ratios (seat time to cost), just pure cash out of pocket.
- Higher level of car prep required: You are going to be a lot more concerned with brake pads, brake fluid, tires and the overall condition of your car. This is not difficult, but there is more emphasis on car prep in DEs than in AX
- Fewer events: There a lots of events around, but not as many DEs as AXs. Plus with limits on the number of cars (a good thing for track days), you may end up not being able to attend if you don’t sign up early. Just requires a bit more planning...




If you are new to "performance driving" (judging by your avatar, it doesn't look like you are), I'd highly recommend attending an Autocross first, as they are safe, easy to get into, and a great introduction to racing. Here are some links to local AX groups:

• Maverick PCA: http://mav.pca.org/Events/AX.asp
• Equipe Rapide: http://www.autocross.com/er/equiperapide/modules/news/
• SCCA: http://www.autocross.com/texasregion/

And there are several others (North Texas S2000 group, Lone Star BMW Car Club, etc.) that hold Autocrosses in our area too. BTW, I will be attending a number of Autocrosses this year, so you’ll have a fellow Cayman driver out there.

I will also make as many of the Maverick PCA DEs as I can, and I'm looking forward to my first run out at Eagle Canyon (I've done Motorsport Ranch and love it!).

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I've been Axing for about 14 years off and on. Do it with SCCA, which has stringent rules on course design, and you will NEVER hurt a modern car. My local PCA club is pretty slack on safety in comparison.

A few personal reasons for not going DE:

You can wreck your car and kill yourself. Therefore you can never push to the real limit in DE. You can do it all day long in AX.

DE courses are few and don't get altered much or at all. How BORING to race the same few circuits over and over. AX courses are totally different every time.

DE is much more expensive. Not only are track days $150, but you will wear out a set of tires in a jiffy and cause real wear and tear on your car even if you don't wreck it. The stickiest tires in AX last 8 or more events.

DE courses seem like they would be dull: sweepers and straights over and over. AX courses are slaloms and hair pins and sweepers and straights and chicago boxes and anything anyone can think of.

People complain about the seat time difference. Do you golf? You spend more time driving in AX than swinging the club in golf for similar overall time spent. And in AX the non-racing time is not spent twiddling your thumbs- you review your lap, plan improvements, talk with competitors, find out how much faster you need to go to get ahead on the next run, change tire pressures, etc. In fact you need the time to let your tires cool down before the next run, because you are going near 100% every run- not 60-80% like on DE (in fact unless you wreck you never know how far from 100% you ran).

Also, the idea that you get 4 runs to learn and perfect your line, braking points, shift points, etc on a course you've never driven or seen is a very challenging and rewarding and unique aspect to AX. No wonder repeating the same ole course every time is anathema to me.

Finally I feel that showing up to a DE would not provide as consistently high a caliber competition, and I'm all about getting better (on any possible course rather than just learning one) and measuring it, not just joy riding without a speed limit and pretending I'm Schumacher. That's not to say there aren't skilled DE drivers, but without a regular set of races for a championship at the end of the year I figure you get pretty random competitors, some of whom are pretenders.

Question: What is the biggest motorsport event in the world in terms of number of entries? The SCCA Solo Nationals. Is there a DE nationals?

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I think it's important to note, that Autocross is a COMPETITIVE event while a DE is non-competitive. I've found that people's competitive spirit shows at the AX events while at a DE it seems instruction/improvement is the primary focus. I've found at an AX that some people are much less inclined to help a "newbie" because winning is the focus.

I personally prefer the DE, for many reasons other members mentioned above.

The driving styles required are substantially different for track driving vs. autocross. Both are worth a try, and then decide which you like better for yourself.

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I'll be bored when I master a given track and leave no room for improvement. The contrary perspective is that the repetition provides a good learning environment.

No, aside from a business function once in a blue moon when I'm dragged into it. Too boring for my tastes, and too much standing around doing nothing.

Become the fast guy in the red group, and then you have a point. Until then, there are plenty of faster guys to battle. You won't find "random competitors" in the fast run groups, you have to prove your skills to get promoted into them.

The Pyramid of Speed

Different strokes for different folks...I'd move up to wheel to wheel racing if it was in the budget.

__________________
'08 E90 M3 (replaced '07 Guards Red Cayman S, which will be fondly remembered)
'08 Miata GT
'08 Honda Ridgeline RTL
'07 KTM Super Duke 990
'07 KTM 300 XC-W

Woodhouse, sorry to hear (read) that's the way things are in your neck of the woods, because that's not the case 'round DFW. I'm not taking your post "personally" or anything, but I just wanted to assure people that DFW area Autocrosses are very approachable.

I've been autocrossing in the area for 5+ years -- SCCA, Equipe Rapide, S2000, PCA, BMW -- and always found autocrossers to be extremely helpful and friendly... especially to new folks. The SCCA and Equipe Rapide have special Novice Classes to give the new folks a little extra attention (if they want it), and ER even has a year-end trophy for the Novice points winner!

ul2fly, keep watching the U.S. Texarkana Region section of this forum. When I plan to attend a local event -- an AX or a DE -- I'll post my plans. I'll be happy to show you the ropes, take you on a ride along during my runs, and ride with you if you'd like some "pointers". I'm no national class driver, but I'm not terrible either. And if you want help from a national class driver, I'll be happy to introduce you to some!

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+1

As much as I enjoy autocross and DEs/track days, I'd be in a Spec Miata - or better yet, a Formula Mazda - in a heartbeat if I had the time and money!

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Well, I think statistically, your chances of being killed (or even seriously injured) are much, much greater just driving on the street, than in a DE.
I might also mention that I have seen video of a course worker getting struck by an out of control car at an AX (and I have personally had spinning cars come at me a couple of times while working an AX course), so I wouldn't say AX is completely w/o hazards either.

As for pushing the limit - I don't try to push the absolute limit of the car in DE, I push the limit of my comfort level, which increases with experience. I agree it is easier/safer to push the limit of the car at AX. Personally, I enjoy both activities for the reasons mentioned above - I agree that the OP should try both and do whatever he enjoys.

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Well then you didn't need a Cayman...

I didn't buy a Porsche just to have to get a Mazda to have fun with. I use the CS at both AX/DE. I am just more cautious at a DE.

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Cayman Club Outsider

Nobody NEEDS a Cayman. I did DE's w/ it when I bought it, then my insurance started excluding on-track coverage. I can stomach the prospect of a $10K uninsured loss, but not a $40-50K one.

Insurance Companies Close Track Day and Training Loopholes | The Truth About Cars

I have more fun hanging it out @ the track w/ the Miata than I would if I had to hold back and be more cautious in the CS.

__________________
'08 E90 M3 (replaced '07 Guards Red Cayman S, which will be fondly remembered)
'08 Miata GT
'08 Honda Ridgeline RTL
'07 KTM Super Duke 990
'07 KTM 300 XC-W

Here in Houston, the local BMW club has a great autocross the second or third sunday each month at the Houston Police Academy (HPA) track. It's a smooth, clean concrete track that is in great shape, and it's a very well run event. I'm there every month, as are a lot of the guys (& gals) in the Lonestar PCA. It's $25.00 for a club member, and we typically get 7 or 8 runs each. If you're in Houston, check us out. You can preregister at BMWCCA.net (I think that's it).

Wow what a great response this thread has had, thank you. I plan to keep my eye on this section for any and all events that are worth attending. I just jumped straight into DE thinking that AX wasn't goanna be quite as rewarding, but now I plan to give it a try as well.

Having only a 25min drive to MSR has made it the closest and most apparent decision for my 1st few outings. Also meeting fellow CC members out there has added to the joy of tracking this car as well. As an ultimate goal, I think someday becoming a member of MSR would be most rewarding for me, having total freedom to run as often as possible. After visiting the track several times during member days, and even getting to ride in what could be the fastest Cayman in DFW has really planted that seed.

For now my goal is to just become a better driver with as little risk to the car as possible (can‘t afford the loss). Don’t care to compete or prove anything at this point. It seems that almost everyone I've met at the DE events have started out in autocross. That being said, I'm thinking I might have missed out somehow by not having ever driven the car to the limit at an AX first. You know how close we can get on the street safely with these cars, absolute 0-10ths shy of maybe a brake check.

I can remember all kinds of things learned from the first DE event like hearing my tires making more noise by the end of day one, and not getting lost on the track as often by day two. When it was over I went home and started planning for my next event, I was hooked. My last event had even more cars in my class (40), and was reduced to the 1.7 vs. the 3.1 mile course and I started feeling somewhat cramped on the track. That combined with a career move kind of put future events on the back burner for 2008.

I’m hoping to be able to attend at least a couple DE events this year, and maybe a couple AX events as well, although I’ve not signed up for any as of this moment.

I used to autocross there when I lived in Houston/The Woodlands in the early-mid '90's. Y'all are lucky to have such a great facility to autocross at. I really enjoyed it. Austin has nothing, all the Austin auto-xers have to go to SA.

__________________
'08 E90 M3 (replaced '07 Guards Red Cayman S, which will be fondly remembered)
'08 Miata GT
'08 Honda Ridgeline RTL
'07 KTM Super Duke 990
'07 KTM 300 XC-W

Kestrel, awesome.. awesome write up w/links.
Thank you