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Thread: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

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    Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    I am getting a little faster and driving the car a bit harder. My pdk equipped cayman with a 3rd radiator and wrapped exhaust. I am still hitting 250 oil temps on the track on a 60 degree day. I suspect this will only get worse as it gets warmer.

    Options I am looking at. A. Larger cooler for the pdk . B. Added oil and weight with a deeper oil pan. I see Lnengineering has a kit that $899 that extends the current pan and allows for 2qts more oil.

    I want to do my best to be sure and protect this car. Which step would be my biggest gain to keep engine temps down? Has anyone thought of producing a small duct to run air by the pdk cooler? If not would anyone be interested in this? I have a r and d shop locally and was thinking about creating one to see if this would help brush some air through it.



    Thank you to Planet-9 contributors
    With the help of you all and reading through all of your trial and error I showed up to my first event at the end of last year. Since that time I have been highly addicted to it all. The guys at the track can't believe how good this car is and I always tell them i credit it to the folks on this board. Thank you for sharing. Can't wait for my next track day!
    2014 Cayman S gt4 front clip center radiator, gt4 side vents, gt4 rear diffuser, rss lca and toe links -2.7 F, -2.8 rear, re71r, ag lightweight wheels, fabspeed race headers and cobb tune, kw H.A.S springs, gt3 front bar, tarrett rear bar, techno brace, giro discs, ds1.11, custom brake cooling, macan paddle steering wheel...2018 was my first summer, love this forum, it helped me to deplete my savings account.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    I don't think an oil temp of 250F in 60F ambient is really something to be concerned about. Cars in the GT4 ClubSport series are known to run oil temps 290F+ on the track in 73F ambient, and the Porsche AG GT4 Clubsport Project Director indicated this was normal and they were confident with performance in ambient temps up to 115F. (source Panorama, Aug 2016). They run Mobil 1 0W40 in these cars.
    2014 Boxster S - Racing Yellow, Sport Chrono, PASM, PTV, PDK, 3rd radiator, Cobb Stage 1 tune (Pagid RSL29's & Nitto NT-01's on the track)

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    There are two ways to reduce the oil temps, first is a GT3 oil/water exchanger. This exchanger doubles the capacity of the oil being cooled within the exchanger. LN also sells their own brand of oil/water exchanger for your car. This reduces you oil temps about 10 degrees, not a big reduction but useful.

    The second is the LN option of a deeper sump that is intended to help cool the oil as well as add more volume. Check out the LN web site for details. djm68, who runs a R Cayman, says this deep sump reduced his oil temperature 15 degrees using same ambient temperatures before and after install.

    Lastly, regarding Mobil 1 0W-40, please use the FS brand, not the european brand. Look up the web site RAT/540 and check where these two Mobil 1 oils end up as far as oil temperature thermal breakdown, and load carring capacity/film strength. Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 came in #6 in load carring/film strength and very good in thermal breakdown starting at 280 degrees F. You can buy this oil on line for cheap so change it often while tracking your car.
    Last edited by Apex1; 05-17-2019 at 09:40 AM.
    2007 SC, Bi Xenon, roof rack, red tail light kit, Ohlins R&T, Tarett Cup LCA's f&r, Tarett GT sway bars, down links, Elephant toe & bump steer links f&r, r toe locker plates, f slotted frame camber mount, Pedro's technolink brace, Function First orange motor mount insert, Numeric short shifter&cables, GT3 throttle body & Agency Power Plenum, EVOMS V-flow Intake, Milltek Muffler & tips, GT2 brake ducts f&r, Signature SV104 forged monoblock Black Chrome Powder coated 18 race wheels, RE71R's tires, LN deep 2 Qt sump & skid plate, Porsche Motor sports AOS.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Describe the wrap process you used. Any coatings inside/outside? Any on top of the wrap?

    Another small help is to add GT4 air scoops. It will increase cold air flow into the engine compartment and cool the engine and help with oil temps.

    V6

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Great thread here. Apex1, do you have the PN for the GT3 oil/water exchanger that fits these (981) engines? I looked for a heat exchanger on LN's website though could not find one there.

    Thank you.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    The LN/BILT oil/water exchanger is listed under LN oil Cooler built by BILT. The kit included mounting bracket and adaptors for $725. Its sort of buried in the LN web site.
    2007 SC, Bi Xenon, roof rack, red tail light kit, Ohlins R&T, Tarett Cup LCA's f&r, Tarett GT sway bars, down links, Elephant toe & bump steer links f&r, r toe locker plates, f slotted frame camber mount, Pedro's technolink brace, Function First orange motor mount insert, Numeric short shifter&cables, GT3 throttle body & Agency Power Plenum, EVOMS V-flow Intake, Milltek Muffler & tips, GT2 brake ducts f&r, Signature SV104 forged monoblock Black Chrome Powder coated 18 race wheels, RE71R's tires, LN deep 2 Qt sump & skid plate, Porsche Motor sports AOS.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    The only steps I took on the headers was wrapping them with dpi exhaust wrap. Looking back I would have ceramic coated them inside and out. I do have the gt4 side scopes as well. Forgot to mention that.

    I had the opportunity to get under a 2011 gt3 rs last week. On that car from the factory porsche had a diverter that ran air into the engine bay and pulled it from the bottom of the car. Two scopes, one on each side that were cut into the bottom rear body panel. I should have taken a photo. Long story short, he races and owns a product development company with the capability of creating something for our cars. We were looking at cutting two holes in the rear underbody cover that is closest to the engine to suck up some of that air and divert it around the engine and toward the pdk cooler. We figured this could be a much more cost effective solution than other options on the market. WE are going to look at a few options. If I can pull something off with him I will share the results.

    My worry with the deep sump is that it lowers the oil pan. My car is already really low and fear damage to it as is in the unplanned off.

    I'll look at the options Apex has suggested above.

    For oil my shop recommends and uses liqui moly. I do not have enough experience one way or the other to tell you if it is good or not. They race and work on race cars.
    2014 Cayman S gt4 front clip center radiator, gt4 side vents, gt4 rear diffuser, rss lca and toe links -2.7 F, -2.8 rear, re71r, ag lightweight wheels, fabspeed race headers and cobb tune, kw H.A.S springs, gt3 front bar, tarrett rear bar, techno brace, giro discs, ds1.11, custom brake cooling, macan paddle steering wheel...2018 was my first summer, love this forum, it helped me to deplete my savings account.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Since you are running X-73 springs, a LN skid plate that covers the deeper sump would work great. If you find a way to cool the engine oil more effectively by using air flow, that would be great as well. One problem is using an external oil radiator, requires the engine oil pump to work overtime to circulate the oil through that radiator, reducing oil pressure to your engine. The other idea is to call LN and ask them directly about the efficiency of air cooling from under the car. They run a fleet of Cayman race cars in various classes, so they can tell you about your cars needs, what works and what does not work.
    2007 SC, Bi Xenon, roof rack, red tail light kit, Ohlins R&T, Tarett Cup LCA's f&r, Tarett GT sway bars, down links, Elephant toe & bump steer links f&r, r toe locker plates, f slotted frame camber mount, Pedro's technolink brace, Function First orange motor mount insert, Numeric short shifter&cables, GT3 throttle body & Agency Power Plenum, EVOMS V-flow Intake, Milltek Muffler & tips, GT2 brake ducts f&r, Signature SV104 forged monoblock Black Chrome Powder coated 18 race wheels, RE71R's tires, LN deep 2 Qt sump & skid plate, Porsche Motor sports AOS.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Made some calls. It sounds like the air idea isn't going to work. The water temp is brining the oil up and it becomes a capacity issue in our cars to get it through that half hour. If we were to run endurance races they would have an external cooler and would use external pumps to pump in and pump out the oil. The "band aid" for us is additional oil to get us through the half hour run.

    I looked at a few options including LN listed above, however that is 2500. Another option to add 2.3 liters of oil to the system would be with Mantis for $845.
    Mantis Sport > Product Portfolio > Cayman-Boxster

    Another option would be to cool the the pdk with the bgb cooler for 1k. This would allow the coolant more opportunity to cool the engine oil and not work as hard to cool both.

    At this point I am most likely going to look at the extension from mantis to add the 2.3l for under 1k and add the LN skid. Mantis is sold out and will have more in two weeks.
    2014 Cayman S gt4 front clip center radiator, gt4 side vents, gt4 rear diffuser, rss lca and toe links -2.7 F, -2.8 rear, re71r, ag lightweight wheels, fabspeed race headers and cobb tune, kw H.A.S springs, gt3 front bar, tarrett rear bar, techno brace, giro discs, ds1.11, custom brake cooling, macan paddle steering wheel...2018 was my first summer, love this forum, it helped me to deplete my savings account.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    I'll add my own cooling problems, if I may.

    Did my first race in my CGTS on Sunday. Was pretty warm by Russian standards, but not extreme. 75F tops. While chasing a 991.2 GT3 and being in his hot/dirty air my oil temp went 10F higher than usual all the way up to 280. At that point I got a gearbox fault on the dash and it locked me out of using 2nd gear. 3-4-5-6 worked normally but sport and sport+ modes also were disabled by the car. After limping around another lap I turned the car off and back on again on the back straight and it worked OK after that as oil temp on the dash didn't get above 270 in cleaner air. Clearly things are on the edge cooling wise. So also looking into improving the cooling capacity for the engine and PDK.

    But here's an additional question - we are using the standard Porsche coolant which means we've got something like 50% glycol in there. Which has significantly worse heat transfer properties compared to distilled water. Has anyone run straight distilled? Maybe with some water wetter or other agent to lubricate the water pump? Or should I try something like 5-10 percent coolant and the rest water? I think at least a few degrees could be gained this way...I mean if the coolant/oil heat exchanger is the limiting factor then using a coolant with improved thermal transfer absolutely should make some difference while not being a "fix" per se.

    Thoughts?
    2015 Cayman GTS
    2008 Audi RS4
    https://www.youtube.com/user/JCviggen1

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Just a note for those running an aftermarket tune: Additional timing in the tune may heat the engine up more than stock. There were some posts on Rennlist that tuned GT4s were overheating and the DME cut timing, hurting the track performance after a few laps. Thus extra heat would reduce heat transfer in the coolant and then contribute to the overheating of the PDK.

    Another note: heat transfer is bi-directional in the water to oil heat exchangers if the controlling valves are open. The water will heat the oil until the oil is warmer than the water. This ensures faster warm up when cold. The oil will transfer heat to the water when it is hotter than the water. Remember the thermostat has two settings. 221F (105C) when in non-sport modes and 194F (90C) when in Sport or Sport Plus to ensure more cooling capability of the water.

    JC: Without some sort of boil protection, the car controlling the water temperature to 221F would be too much for water since it boils at 100C at normal pressures. In the engine, it would increase water system pressure at the least. Given several hoses seal with O-rings and the expansion tank has a pressure relief cap on it, water may result in loss of coolant.

    V6
    Last edited by Voyager6; 05-21-2019 at 12:22 PM.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager6 View Post
    JC: Without some sort of boil protection, the car controlling the water temperature to 221F would be too much for water since it boils at 100C at normal pressures. In the engine, it would increase water system pressure at the least. Given several hoses seal with O-rings and the expansion tank has a pressure relief cap on it, water may result in loss of coolant.
    The coolant that is in there right now only has a very slightly raised boiling temp over straight water, the pressure in the cooling system is mainly responsible for it not boiling. It's a fairly straight forward thing for cars that go racing to run plain water or water-less coolants for safety as well as cooling reasons. I'm not worried that it won't work but I am concerned about the effects on the water pump, getting the coolant swapped without creating air pockets in the engine and if the gain is going to be enough to make it worth it...
    2015 Cayman GTS
    2008 Audi RS4
    https://www.youtube.com/user/JCviggen1

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    [QUOTE=JCviggen;2118289]I'll add my own cooling problems, if I may.


    But here's an additional question - we are using the standard Porsche coolant which means we've got something like 50% glycol in there. Which has significantly worse heat transfer properties compared to distilled water. Has anyone run straight distilled? Maybe with some water wetter or other agent to lubricate the water pump? Or should I try something like 5-10 percent coolant and the rest water? I think at least a few degrees could be gained this way...I mean if the coolant/oil heat exchanger is the limiting factor then using a coolant with improved thermal transfer absolutely should make some difference while not being a "fix" per se.

    I have been using Red Line Water Wetter for many years in my big block Vette and Z-28 with good results all with a 50/50 glycol/water mix all with good results. So I also started using it in my CS after I did my first flush two years ago. I agree with V6's later post about a 50/50 mix raising the boil-over temperature. But, according to what it says on the Water Wetter bottle: "Improves the ability of coolant to wet transfer surfaces by 50%. This provides significantly coolant contact in the cylinder head and can reduce coolant and head temperature by as much as 20degrees F. Can be used with 100% water in racing but does not protect magnesium or alter freezing point. Directions for use: 1 ounce per quart..... Less than 50% antifreeze provides further improvement in temperature reduction, but at least 15% antifreeze should be used in street vehicles.......Water Wetter provides excellent corrosion protection for cast iron, aluminum and brass..."

    You can take their statement for what it's worth and I personally have always run a 50/50 mix with the Water Wetter added and due to the Ohio weather I have kept it in year round.

    I have recently installed the center radiator on my CS with PDK and used the CSF dual core aluminum radiator. You may consider changing your stock center radiator and possibly the two side radiators to the CSF dual core radiators. I bought my center radiator on sale for $250 (stock CS not GT4) and it clams to be 25% more efficient than the stock Porsche radiators. I recall a post from a 987 owner that claims he changed all three radiators to the CSF radiators and was pleased with the lower oil temperatures at the track and was less money than larger heat exchangers and larger sumps. Of course adding the heat exchangers/deep sump, Water Wetter and CSF radiators to reduce water temperature would be the ultimate if budget allows.

    Jim
    2014 Cayman S : Agate Grey, PDK, PASM, SportDesign wheel, Bi-Xenon W/PDLS, ParkAssist F/R, 18-way Sport Seats /heated/vented, crests on HR, Premium Package, Bose W/Navi.
    Mods (all DIY): Cobb tuning w/PDK flash, aFe headers, aFe dry filters, FF1 engine mounts, DIY grilles front&sides, clear corners, Dynaudio tweeters, extended height console, PSE w/Soul-X, CSF alum center radiator, Maxspeed B/U camera.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Quote Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
    The coolant that is in there right now only has a very slightly raised boiling temp over straight water, the pressure in the cooling system is mainly responsible for it not boiling. It's a fairly straight forward thing for cars that go racing to run plain water or water-less coolants for safety as well as cooling reasons. I'm not worried that it won't work but I am concerned about the effects on the water pump, getting the coolant swapped without creating air pockets in the engine and if the gain is going to be enough to make it worth it...
    I understand about the air pockets. Last June, I had the coolant flushed/changed in my flood Boxster and it only recently quit using coolant. In 4K miles, I had to add nearly a gallon. It hasn't lost any (assumed to air bubbles in system) in six weeks. My Cayman, after the engine change, used coolant for three or four months before it settled to a fixed level - but it was a total of 2 quarts. Crazy thing is while both cars were giving up air, there would be coolant smell at the rear after driving. So I do think parts of the engine gets hot enough to cause the pressure cap to leak a little bit in that situation.

    V6

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager6 View Post
    I understand about the air pockets. Last June, I had the coolant flushed/changed in my flood Boxster and it only recently quit using coolant. In 4K miles, I had to add nearly a gallon. It hasn't lost any (assumed to air bubbles in system) in six weeks. My Cayman, after the engine change, used coolant for three or four months before it settled to a fixed level - but it was a total of 2 quarts. Crazy thing is while both cars were giving up air, there would be coolant smell at the rear after driving. So I do think parts of the engine gets hot enough to cause the pressure cap to leak a little bit in that situation.

    V6
    Stuff like that does worry me. No matter what we upgrade in the cooling system, pretty much everything involves the coolant coming out. It's a track car only at this point so between filling it and running on track there isn't a lot of normal driving. Air pockets and the engine being pushed hard on a racetrack sound like a bad combo to me. But leaving it alone isn't a solution either.
    2015 Cayman GTS
    2008 Audi RS4
    https://www.youtube.com/user/JCviggen1

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Small update.

    Since I had experienced some kind of PDK related limp mode 15 minutes into a 30 minute race a few weeks ago we had been in touch with a German racing team where one of our members had bought a GT4cs recently. They also run a bunch of regular 981s and had dealt with gearbox cooling issues before. What they recommended, and what we subsequently implemented, was to add an additional setrab radiator inline with the stock PDK heat exchanger. Cut off the metal pipes, weld on a fitting and then run lines to the extra cooler mounted at the back of the gearbox.

    While I did not ever log the actual gearbox temperatures beforehand, we ran in even hotter weather this weekend and I did not experience any issues. Just to make sure I had also switched to running straight water plus a bottle of Motul MoCool. Oil temps were still high to be fair...not much improvement there. But some. Ambient was 5-6 degrees C higher than last time and oil temps were higher by about 3C but it's not a direct comparison as I've gone to Mobil1 5W50 from the 0W40. Highest oil temp not was 275F but with a little bit of lifting and coasting and early shifting it settled just under 270F. These were the highest ambient temps we're ever likely to encounter so for surviving a worst case scenario I think we'll be fine going forward.
    2015 Cayman GTS
    2008 Audi RS4
    https://www.youtube.com/user/JCviggen1

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    JC,

    To which heat exchanger did you add the radiator? The clutch oil or the gear oil heat exchanger?

    V6

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Gear oil. I'd been wanting to log reported gearbox temps with my Cobb AP but didn't get around to it.
    2015 Cayman GTS
    2008 Audi RS4
    https://www.youtube.com/user/JCviggen1

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Update, Klag was blocking my fan from doing anything in my side vents. One fan motor was burnt up. We will be adding screens to prevent this. I have the gt4 front clip, we were missing a few pieces that were letting air by. Those are now sealed. We are cutting out and screening the front fender flairs. We will be adding dual naca ducts in front of the exhaust on both sides. I will be adding mainly water the coolant system with wetter water. 70/30 coolant. I have the rear gt4 splitter, we removed the heat shield at the bottom so that it can vent. I added another wrap to the headers. I will be adding a higher volume oil cooler on top of the engine as well. When I was I insulated the air duct going into the intake on both side with heat tape and also wrapped my plenum.

    I was told water in the radiator can be good for ten degrees. I am hoping to gain another ten from the other mods. I will report back.

    The joys of heat
    2014 Cayman S gt4 front clip center radiator, gt4 side vents, gt4 rear diffuser, rss lca and toe links -2.7 F, -2.8 rear, re71r, ag lightweight wheels, fabspeed race headers and cobb tune, kw H.A.S springs, gt3 front bar, tarrett rear bar, techno brace, giro discs, ds1.11, custom brake cooling, macan paddle steering wheel...2018 was my first summer, love this forum, it helped me to deplete my savings account.

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    Re: Engine cooling next step after 3rd rad. larger oil cooler or deep sump

    Update

    I worked with the good people of BGB to get a larger oil cooler overnighted to me. We sucked out 3/4 of the coolant, naca ducts on the bottom pointed to the exhaust, double wrapped the exhaust with heat tape, cut out the back vender liners on the front fenders, cut out two areas on the plastic shroud under the middle radiator to release heat, removed the heat shield at the back of the car covering the venting on the gt4 diffuser, and added new fans.

    Before this work I was hitting 280 on my oil temps at the track when pushing it hard on a 70 degree day. This last monday and tuesday I took the care to road america for the first time. I pounded the car hard with mid to upper 2:30's on the track and the temps stayed under 240. This is the first time it had been to any other track accept BIR, Brainerd, MN. I will report back when we get it to BIR as well.

    So, far the results have been great.
    2014 Cayman S gt4 front clip center radiator, gt4 side vents, gt4 rear diffuser, rss lca and toe links -2.7 F, -2.8 rear, re71r, ag lightweight wheels, fabspeed race headers and cobb tune, kw H.A.S springs, gt3 front bar, tarrett rear bar, techno brace, giro discs, ds1.11, custom brake cooling, macan paddle steering wheel...2018 was my first summer, love this forum, it helped me to deplete my savings account.

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