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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    If you're really interested in EVs, not because "we are all going to die" but because you believe it is a better transportation solution, personally, for you, then you should read this article from The Conversation. https://theconversation.com/the-elec...-the-us-116102 The key point in it is simple, although all the words are not said. The US is based on capitalism. The best product for consumers will be whatever consumers decide. And that "winner" is not necessarily, the "best" technology. Beta tape format, from Sony, is the poster child for this phenomena. The article predicts that the push for EVs will come from China, not the US. And the reasons:

    "Huge government backing" (government mandate)

    "billions of dollars to subsidize manufacturing of electric vehicles" (carrots)

    "new government regulations" (government mandate)

    That's not how free enterprise works. The massive US economy exists because of free enterprise - competition. Competition breeds more and more companies, more and better technology. Monopolies are broken up (anti-trust). But China is not free enterprise. Governments mandating technology solutions tells me two things:

    1. Consumers don't wants the solution. If they did, they would embrace them without mandates or carrots,

    and far more important in the long term

    2. inevitably it will fail. Americans, in particular, hate being told what to do, from the Revolutionary War (Britain telling its colonists what to do) to Prohibition (government mandates) to even today the legalization of MJ (government mandate) its all the same. In the end, in the US, any Mandate will fail for such a massive item (i.e, the transportation sector).

    I also see Tesla is getting burned on the Tariffs.
    https://jalopnik.com/tesla-may-be-especially-burned-by-the-u-s-china-trade-1834746886 Maybe Tesla shouldn't count so much on China as a marketplace. Tariffs are only going to get worse until someone blinks. Who is going to bet on the President blinking? Ahh Tesla? Didn't Elon Musk walk away from some WH council he was participating on? https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/01/elon-musk-leaving-trump-advisory-councils-following-paris-agreement-withdrawal/ Sure he did. I'm not suggesting this has anything to do with any council, only that the interests of both might not be aligned. How many more near $1B quarter losses can Tesla sustain?

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post
    The massive US economy exists because of free enterprise - competition.


    In theory. In practice there are lots and lots of issues that warp the playing field from theoretically level to a more Alp-like topography. Money rules all. Lobbying gives large corporations a ludicrous amount of control over regulations. At the other end lots of things are subsidized or kept going until long after they stop making any sense simply because voters would kick out whoever does the right thing. And if there's one thing more important to a politician than the greater good, it's his own job.

    Prohibition (government mandates) to even today the legalization of MJ (government mandate)
    So banning one drug was government "mandating" things but it no longer banning another is too? What school of logic is that from? The one where everything is government overreach unless it's something you happen to like? How does that even work. The default state of a hands-off government would be pretty much everything being legal. It would also mean that government is entirely irrelevant of course.
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post
    If you're really interested in EVs, not because "we are all going to die" but because you believe it is a better transportation solution, personally, for you, then you should read this article from The Conversation. https://theconversation.com/the-elec...-the-us-116102 The key point in it is simple, although all the words are not said. The US is based on capitalism. The best product for consumers will be whatever consumers decide. And that "winner" is not necessarily, the "best" technology. Beta tape format, from Sony, is the poster child for this phenomena. The article predicts that the push for EVs will come from China, not the US. And the reasons:

    "Huge government backing" (government mandate)

    "billions of dollars to subsidize manufacturing of electric vehicles" (carrots)

    "new government regulations" (government mandate)

    That's not how free enterprise works. The massive US economy exists because of free enterprise - competition. Competition breeds more and more companies, more and better technology. Monopolies are broken up (anti-trust). But China is not free enterprise. Governments mandating technology solutions tells me two things:

    1. Consumers don't wants the solution. If they did, they would embrace them without mandates or carrots,

    and far more important in the long term

    2. inevitably it will fail. Americans, in particular, hate being told what to do, from the Revolutionary War (Britain telling its colonists what to do) to Prohibition (government mandates) to even today the legalization of MJ (government mandate) its all the same. In the end, in the US, any Mandate will fail for such a massive item (i.e, the transportation sector).

    I also see Tesla is getting burned on the Tariffs.
    https://jalopnik.com/tesla-may-be-especially-burned-by-the-u-s-china-trade-1834746886 Maybe Tesla shouldn't count so much on China as a marketplace. Tariffs are only going to get worse until someone blinks. Who is going to bet on the President blinking? Ahh Tesla? Didn't Elon Musk walk away from some WH council he was participating on? https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/01/elon-musk-leaving-trump-advisory-councils-following-paris-agreement-withdrawal/ Sure he did. I'm not suggesting this has anything to do with any council, only that the interests of both might not be aligned. How many more near $1B quarter losses can Tesla sustain?
    Chows,
    I'm a capitalist, but I'm also a realist and a long-term thinker. Items driven purely by profits and margins are NOT always in the best interests of those buying them.

    So what if you had 2 choices:

    1) You could get your mobility/transportation needs satisfied for only $5/day using product X but the use of product X will have detrimental consequences that will result in there being no mobility/transportation in 200 years.
    2) You could get your mobility/transportation needs satisfied for $10/day using product Y and Product Y has no such detrimental consequences

    Which would you choose? In your post above I think you would argue that MOST people would choose option 1, it is half as expensive as option 2 and any effects aren't likely to happen until after they are dead so they don't care.

    The problem is that capitalism RARELY takes into account the true/full costs of whatever product/service is being proposed. It rarely takes into account the long term ramifications of any decision. This is why would should not have unbridled capitalism and there needs to be some sort of system of checks and balances. For now, what we have is the government and the government is supposed to operate as that system of checks and balances on unbridled capitalism but it rarely does because we have lobbying groups and pac money and all the ways that capitalism attempts to exert influence over those attempting to control capitalism.

    So the answer of "just let the market decide" is not always a good one. If oil and gas and ICE car makers had to pay a tax based on the true costs of what their industries are doing to the people who live on this planet and the environment they likely would no longer have a cost advantage. But no one wants to do that calculation, no one wants to look into the realities of which different choices bring because it means things get harder to do and harder to do means you don't get instant profits and instant gratification.

    So sure, we can always choose the cheap/easy solution and in which case we end up getting to 415 and beyond: https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...5hq-story.html

    Read that carefully, not human history, but human EXISTENCE

    Staying away from the political aspects of this I know there is that whole MAGA slogan. To me what that means is Americans getting off their collective butts and innovating and doing something about the problems we have created. When America was mostly a wilderness and there were daily existence problems to be solved and cross country transportation problems to be solved, we solved them. Well now we face a new set of problems, some of our own doing, and we need to step up and solve them. I don't think that means that America has never been "great" but I think it does mean that we can do better and are capable of doing better if we put efforts into it. Like Elon Musk or not (yes he is whacko on twitter sometimes) at least he is trying to do something about several of the problems we face. The sooner we can get to clean or cleaner energy solutions the better off we will all be and we can use that energy to focus on solving other problems we as a species face.

    Not to mention that if we don't solve energy and interstellar travel problems we are going to get our collective butts handed to us by the first alien race that stumbles upon Earth (assuming they don't have our best interests at heart)

    Ok that's enough for now...
    Last edited by K-Man S; 05-15-2019 at 09:42 AM.
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
    In theory. In practice there are lots and lots of issues that warp the playing field from theoretically level to a more Alp-like topography. Money rules all. Lobbying gives large corporations a ludicrous amount of control over regulations. At the other end lots of things are subsidized or kept going until long after they stop making any sense simply because voters would kick out whoever does the right thing. And if there's one thing more important to a politician than the greater good, it's his own job.

    No disagreement here. That's why many people dislike politicians whose job is professional politician. Lobbying is all about the money. Money does rule all. But money makes money. This is why some people don't understand how you can cut taxes and yet money coming into the government rises. How can that be? Its because the money doesn't rot under the mattress. It gets spent, new factories are built, people buy goods. Sales tax are collected and the cycle continues as the economy grows and grows and grows. How money is handled is fundamental to growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
    So banning one drug was government "mandating" things but it no longer banning another is too? What school of logic is that from? The one where everything is government overreach unless it's something you happen to like? How does that even work. The default state of a hands-off government would be pretty much everything being legal. It would also mean that government is entirely irrelevant of course.
    Not what I said. I said "Americans, in particular, hate being told what to do, from the Revolutionary War (Britain telling its colonists what to do) to Prohibition (government mandates) to even today the legalization of MJ (government mandate) its all the same." America is somewhat unique in that it is truly a blend from cultures of the Old World to the New World. Many fleed prosecution and persecution to start new lives. They continue today. That "melting pot" really is a melting pot. The dislike for Dictatorships, Monarchs, Kings, etc runs very deep. Being told what do is disliked.

    But don't confuse the issue. Its NOT laissez-faire capitalism. Monopolies ARE broken up. Regulations do exist. You can't have con artists selling consumers placebos and telling them it cures all things. FDA or FTC steps in. In my example, both Prohibition and using MJ (even today at the federal level) was criminalized. Over time it was decriminalized. The people have spoken.

    The "government" is the WILL of the people via a "republic” (not the tyranny of the majority). Remember, Alcohol was demon rum. It caused families to break up. Bad booze. Ban it all. MJ was the gateway drug to the "hard stuff". "Here is your brain. Here is your brain on drugs" ads. It is NOT hands off government. That would be anarchy. But it is a level of control exerted by the voters. It might take time but it happens.
    Last edited by chows4us; 05-15-2019 at 05:11 PM.

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    A lot to go over here but I agree 100% with the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    ,,, we are going to get our collective butts handed to us by the first alien race that stumbles upon Earth (assuming they don't have our best interests at heart)
    Dr Hawkins is right about this. Any society capable of interstellar travel will have technology we puny humans can't imagine. We won't be anything buy ants to them. Whether or not they even recognize our existence is debatable. Whether or not we recognize what they are is also debatable. And an Star Trek future, a fantasy science fiction, is just that, a fantasy. We don't know what we don't know. I would be very wary of any "contact".

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Now for the deep thinking stuff Broke this parts

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    Items driven purely by profits and margins are NOT always in the best interests of those buying them.
    Never said they were. Take tobacco. Chances are you WILL die from it and yet there are millions of new smokers every year. Who would have thought? No argument there.

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    So what if you had 2 choices:
    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post

    1) You could get your mobility/transportation needs satisfied for only $5/day using product X but the use of product X will have detrimental consequences that will result in there being no mobility/transportation in 200 years.
    2) You could get your mobility/transportation needs satisfied for $10/day using product Y and Product Y has no such detrimental consequences

    Which would you choose?
    This is a straw man with a potentially false premise. You have no proof there will be no mobility in 200 years, only unprovable theories. There is no proof that "global warming" will not be profitable and good for business. I've said this before. Think of the business opportunities from selling the Tundra to new waterways through the poles over the great circle route instead of using canals. If there is a way to make money, there will be massive profits to be made. Someone will profit (and some will not). In the whining thread I asked "where are the land speculators buying up northern land?" None could be found. I won’t argue that CO2 isn’t rising or man made. I’m not sure it matters. Mankind is very inventive and if there is a profit to be made, some tech wizard will figure it out.

    But to your point. #1 always wins for the masses. Here's why. When "they" take polls, the question is NOT "do you care about climate change". I care about all species of life. So what? The real question is "What's it worth to you?" From Pew (fairly independent, no left or right wing I know): https://climatecommunication.yale.ed...limate-voters/ Americans care more about immigration and many other issues that doing some thing about climate change. Quote:

    “The low priority ranking of climate change is due—at least in part—to our human tendency to prioritize current risks and discount future threats.”


    Well duh, they need someone to explain that? Of course that's what people care about. They care about themselves first, then their family. They don't care about something far in the future with no definitive proof. Yes, I believe the majority will ALWAYS choose #1. Just think about cigarettes. No matter how many time people are told they will die, millions of new smokers start every year.


    Last edited by chows4us; 05-15-2019 at 04:07 PM.

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    The problem is that capitalism RARELY takes into account the true/full costs of whatever product/service is being proposed. It rarely takes into account the long term ramifications of any decision. This is why would should not have unbridled capitalism and there needs to be some sort of system of checks and balances.
    Of course. That is why it’s is not laissez-faire capitalism. Regulations protect the public. Can’t have monopolies or people peddling placebos as cures.

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    So the answer of "just let the market decide" is not always a good one. If oil and gas and ICE car makers had to pay a tax based on the true costs of what their industries are doing to the people who live on this planet and the environment they likely would no longer have a cost advantage. But no one wants to do that calculation, no one wants to look into the realities of which different choices bring because it means things get harder to do and harder to do means you don't get instant profits and instant gratification.
    That’s the UN position. Your argument is exactly the UN climate change argument regarding world governance and the collapse of capitalism.

    https://bios.fi/bios-governance_of_e...transition.pdf “..strong political governance is required to accomplish the key transitions. Market-based action will not suffice …”

    If its not market based then what is it? Socialism of Communist state controlled?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/01/22/the-u-n-s-global-warming-war-on-capitalism-an-important-history-lesson-2/#188210da29be

    “Environment Program Executive Director Maurice Strong who organized the first U.N. Earth Climate Summit (1992) in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil expressed an underlying priority very candidly: “We may get to the point where the only way of saving the world will be for industrialized civilization to collapse. Isn’t it our responsibility to bring this about?”

    Whoa, their responsibility to collapse industrial civilization? Who are they to say that? Its HIS RESPONSIBILITY to collapse industrialized nations?
    Now its getting upsetting.

    And the latest https://www.unric.org/en/latest-un-b...-intentionally

    "This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model, for the first time in human history", Ms Figueres stated at a press conference in Brussels."This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the industrial revolution.”

    The goal of the UN is to eliminate capitalism because its not what "they" want?
    How are you ever going to sell that to Americans? America is unique among the nations. It despises Monarchs, dictators, state controlled "anything", communism, etc. How can they ever sell this?

    By telling generations of American citizens that everything their ancestors fought and built is about to be thrown away?

    That your national sovereignty is now meaningless?

    That the million of US soldiers that died to keep America free no longer means anything? Your fathers, grandfathers all your ancestors who died to keep America a nation died in vain?

    That everything American innovation (via capitalism) is to be thrown away for a single global government that the UN wants?

    By having more and more alarmists shout “We are all going to die?”

    We are a nation of immigrants. They fled wherever they fled from, and today, to leave oppressive governments. AFAIK the Bill of Rights is unique. I don't know every countries constitution but ours is based on the fact your rights are given to you buy your creator, NOT by any government. And hence the masses FLEE to the US knowing this.

    Everything "they" tried has failed. The Yellow Vests in France riot every week. Americans yawn (see Pew). The salesman are doing a poor job. They predict things that don't come true. Then scream louder and louder. Boy who cried wolf. And since it is all tied to money, which I think you agree, I'll go back to real estate, which I have used as an example before.

    Want to show Americans its real (and tying this to capitalism)? Show me the real estate developers buying up northern, and far southern latitude land with the intent to develop as farmland and housing. After all, one day the tropical latitudes will be too hot. The migration will go to the poles as equatorial land will be uninhabitable. Show me money flowing in massive amounts to investments to take advantage of the shift in climate. Remember, I'm not saying temps are not rising. I'm saying "so what?" Capitalists go to the profits, they go where the money will flow.

    Show me real estate speculators buying land today on land unable to grow crops because its always frozen, to be developed for crops and housing.

    Do that and then "maybe" you can sell this - LOOK! The money is moving to the new gold rush. Then people might believe it all. Until then - meh. No money flow - nothing. Meanwhile, the oil industry is BOOMING. American has achieved energy independence. And how anyone can think they are going to just throw that away I found incredulous. BUT - show the flow of money to the far northern and far southern latitudes for the express purpose of land speculation for crops and housing?

    Then you can make a case to the public. Follow the money (as they say). Until then, all the screaming, all the "but the scientist say", all the "predictions mean nothing". There is the old adage. "Money Talks, BS walks"

    Show speculators buying up land on Tierre del Fuego, on Baffin Island, in Greenland, in Siberia, etc. Anyone? Then show Americans - LOOK! Its real. People are actually BETTING their cash on climate change.

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    Staying away from the political aspects of this I know there is that whole MAGA slogan. To me what that means is Americans getting off their collective butts and innovating and doing something about the problems we have created.
    Not going there. I was talking tariffs and their effects on cars. maga has nothing to do with this other than being current political slogan. Next decade, there will be new slogans, new politicians, just like a decade ago there will be different ones. In the long run, whoever is in office means little. I've said this before. They come and go. Some are footnotes in history. What matters, the only thing that matters, is that which is written in statutes. Creating laws and treaties is VERY difficult. Talk is just talk. Its like the Paris thing. Not ratified by the Senate? Then meaningless. The current UN migration pact not ratified? Meaningless. All this kind of stuff is very very hard.

    I agree about innovation. And its capitalism - innovation that matters. I have great faith in American innovation to solve problems.

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post
    Now for the deep thinking stuff Broke this parts



    Never said they were. Take tobacco. Chances are you WILL die from it and yet there are millions of new smokers every year. Who would have thought? No argument there.

    [FONT=verdana]

    This is a straw man with a potentially false premise. You have no proof there will be no mobility in 200 years, only unprovable theories. There is no proof that "global warming" will not be profitable and good for business. I've said this before. Think of the business opportunities from selling the Tundra to new waterways through the poles over the great circle route instead of using canals. If there is a way to make money, there will be massive profits to be made. Someone will profit (and some will not). In the whining thread I asked "where are the land speculators buying up northern land?" None could be found. I won’t argue that CO2 isn’t rising or man made. I’m not sure it matters. Mankind is very inventive and if there is a profit to be made, some tech wizard will figure it out.

    But to your point. #1 always wins for the masses. Here's why. When "they" take polls, the question is NOT "do you care about climate change". I care about all species of life. So what? The real question is "What's it worth to you?" From Pew (fairly independent, no left or right wing I know): https://climatecommunication.yale.ed...limate-voters/ Americans care more about immigration and many other issues that doing some thing about climate change. Quote:

    “The low priority ranking of climate change is due—at least in part—to our human tendency to prioritize current risks and discount future threats.”


    Well duh, they need someone to explain that? Of course that's what people care about. They care about themselves first, then their family. They don't care about something far in the future with no definitive proof. Yes, I believe the majority will ALWAYS choose #1. Just think about cigarettes. No matter how many time people are told they will die, millions of new smokers start every year.


    OK So you agree with me then that EV's are not a failure because they cost more then a gas powered car (currently - no pun intended) but that people aren't likely to choose something that doesn't give them an immediate benefit. This is one of the reasons that I don't think there should be a cap on the $7500 tax break for EVs provided by the government, it helps with the "what do I get right now" aspect of buying an electric car, the government is incenting people to do something that they wouldn't ordinarily do as the government often does when it wants people to act in a way that is more beneficial to everyone overall instead of being myopic and thinking solely about themselves in the "right now". I've already pointed out before that ICE vehicles have had a 100+ years to get to the economies of scale that they are at currently and it would foolish to think EVs could get there overnight. I think EVs have closed the gap significantly to where many people probably do have a financial benefit of buying an EV over ICE in certain scenarios, but those scenarios aren't the "norm" or the "average" yet, but again, the gap is closing.

    Yeah I don't get cigarette smoking either but undeniably people do it and I just saw where Philip Morris is getting in trouble for promoting that vaping alternative to teens in other countries while telling our government that they would never do such a thing.
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post


    Of course. That is why it’s is not laissez-faire capitalism. Regulations protect the public. Can’t have monopolies or people peddling placebos as cures.



    That’s the UN position. Your argument is exactly the UN climate change argument regarding world governance and the collapse of capitalism.

    https://bios.fi/bios-governance_of_e...transition.pdf “..strong political governance is required to accomplish the key transitions. Market-based action will not suffice …”

    If its not market based then what is it? Socialism of Communist state controlled?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/01/22/the-u-n-s-global-warming-war-on-capitalism-an-important-history-lesson-2/#188210da29be

    “Environment Program Executive Director Maurice Strong who organized the first U.N. Earth Climate Summit (1992) in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil expressed an underlying priority very candidly: “We may get to the point where the only way of saving the world will be for industrialized civilization to collapse. Isn’t it our responsibility to bring this about?”

    Whoa, their responsibility to collapse industrial civilization? Who are they to say that? Its HIS RESPONSIBILITY to collapse industrialized nations?
    Now its getting upsetting.

    And the latest https://www.unric.org/en/latest-un-b...-intentionally

    "This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model, for the first time in human history", Ms Figueres stated at a press conference in Brussels."This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the industrial revolution.”

    The goal of the UN is to eliminate capitalism because its not what "they" want?
    How are you ever going to sell that to Americans? America is unique among the nations. It despises Monarchs, dictators, state controlled "anything", communism, etc. How can they ever sell this?

    By telling generations of American citizens that everything their ancestors fought and built is about to be thrown away?

    That your national sovereignty is now meaningless?

    That the million of US soldiers that died to keep America free no longer means anything? Your fathers, grandfathers all your ancestors who died to keep America a nation died in vain?

    That everything American innovation (via capitalism) is to be thrown away for a single global government that the UN wants?

    By having more and more alarmists shout “We are all going to die?”

    We are a nation of immigrants. They fled wherever they fled from, and today, to leave oppressive governments. AFAIK the Bill of Rights is unique. I don't know every countries constitution but ours is based on the fact your rights are given to you buy your creator, NOT by any government. And hence the masses FLEE to the US knowing this.

    Everything "they" tried has failed. The Yellow Vests in France riot every week. Americans yawn (see Pew). The salesman are doing a poor job. They predict things that don't come true. Then scream louder and louder. Boy who cried wolf. And since it is all tied to money, which I think you agree, I'll go back to real estate, which I have used as an example before.

    Want to show Americans its real (and tying this to capitalism)? Show me the real estate developers buying up northern, and far southern latitude land with the intent to develop as farmland and housing. After all, one day the tropical latitudes will be too hot. The migration will go to the poles as equatorial land will be uninhabitable. Show me money flowing in massive amounts to investments to take advantage of the shift in climate. Remember, I'm not saying temps are not rising. I'm saying "so what?" Capitalists go to the profits, they go where the money will flow.

    Show me real estate speculators buying land today on land unable to grow crops because its always frozen, to be developed for crops and housing.

    Do that and then "maybe" you can sell this - LOOK! The money is moving to the new gold rush. Then people might believe it all. Until then - meh. No money flow - nothing. Meanwhile, the oil industry is BOOMING. American has achieved energy independence. And how anyone can think they are going to just throw that away I found incredulous. BUT - show the flow of money to the far northern and far southern latitudes for the express purpose of land speculation for crops and housing?

    Then you can make a case to the public. Follow the money (as they say). Until then, all the screaming, all the "but the scientist say", all the "predictions mean nothing". There is the old adage. "Money Talks, BS walks"

    Show speculators buying up land on Tierre del Fuego, on Baffin Island, in Greenland, in Siberia, etc. Anyone? Then show Americans - LOOK! Its real. People are actually BETTING their cash on climate change.
    Chows, i'm not making the argument that the UN or others you quoted above are making. I never said we should abolish the US government and form a one world government, that would be foolish as single monolithic systems ALWAYS fail, only through diversity does life survive and thrive. That being said, I do think there are times that governments can incent people to do the right thing and that there is nothing wrong with doing so, if situations get bad then you can penalize as well as needed. If you read my prior statement I said I was in favor of a system of checks and balances and at times the government must act as a system of checks on unbridled capitalism and I think you concurred above when you talked about not having monopolies (aka monolithic systems doomed to failure) or charlatans peddling placebos as cures.

    I'm not sure how you took my statement that companies don't take into account their true total impact on the world into the UN wanting to tear down civilization and replace it with a new world order. I'm merely advocating that we have the capabilities today of doing some very big number crunching and if we wanted to, we could do a better job of assessing the positives and negatives of any given alternative as opposed to blindly relying on past patterns/practices. Use new capabilities for good!
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post
    Not going there. I was talking tariffs and their effects on cars. maga has nothing to do with this other than being current political slogan. Next decade, there will be new slogans, new politicians, just like a decade ago there will be different ones. In the long run, whoever is in office means little. I've said this before. They come and go. Some are footnotes in history. What matters, the only thing that matters, is that which is written in statutes. Creating laws and treaties is VERY difficult. Talk is just talk. Its like the Paris thing. Not ratified by the Senate? Then meaningless. The current UN migration pact not ratified? Meaningless. All this kind of stuff is very very hard.

    I agree about innovation. And its capitalism - innovation that matters. I have great faith in American innovation to solve problems.
    I think we agree here, my point was I don't not think people should equate MAGA (or insert current slogan here) to mean going back to the "glory days of the past" but rather if we want something to be "great" or "better" then we need to work on it and solve the problems we face, not take the easy way out of just doing something that was done in the past in a blind fashion...
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    since the dialogue here now apparently includes legitimate references to climate change, i'd like to reference the views expressed by bill nye, the science guy, on john oliver's "last week tonight" program last sunday evening on hbo - the final example of which, anyone truly interested can observe here [warning: contains mature views and language]...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jox0dtLNW_w
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by philipwitak View Post
    bill nye, the science guy,
    You need better salesmen. He's attacked by the left (e.g., Bill Nye Does Not Speak for Us and He Does Not Speak for Science) and the right (e.g., Science Guy Bill Nye ‘Changes’ the Facts on Gender). Is he a scientist or "science communicator"? He preaches and its true because he says its true? Nonsense.

    This is part of the bigger problem of lousy salesmen. If they were good salesmen, there would be no problem getting money. Money would be pouring in. But the salesmen are people who fly private jets, own multiple houses, make predictions that don't come true, and here's a new one for you, the head of the UN speaking on Climate Change. From the Associated Press https://apnews.com/5771645c622d4717bffc3e33fbc20df9 You can read the article yourself. He's selling his idea. Sell Sell Sell. But what does he say?

    "Guterres, who said he used to love steak houses but now only goes once every three months because livestock contribute significantly to warming"

    Leaders set by example. They don't use private jets. They don't use private yachts and they don't eat at steak houses (or eat steak) EVER. That's not setting an example. Some might call that "hypocrisy". They do NOT walk the walk. Maybe its too inconvenient? Let me help you here. Hire salesmen that walk the walk. Try from the SGU, Cara Maria. She only drives an EV and is a "science communicator", not an actor like Mr. Nye comes across, at least to me, as acting.

    Now read the comments in the youtube on Mr. Nye. Read this comment from
    waverly246818: Calif. has $1 trillion in unfunded pension liabilities, so there's NO MONEY to save the planet. If you don't believe in the pension crisis, why should I believe in the global warming crisis ??" Is that true? Maybe http://www.pensiontracker.org sure looks like $1T. But this says its less https://www.ppic.org/publication/pub...in-california/ more like $240B.

    Its simple Maslow pyramid of needs. It would seem that cleaning up the streets of SF or having the money to pay pensioners to whom the money is owed is a lot more important to the public than worrying about some future event that might be no big deal, especially if tech solution are found.

    That is the problem you have selling this. Immediate needs of future events that might be meaningless. Choose your salesmen carefully.
    Maybe Mr. Nye walks the walk, i don't know. But some do not and appearances matter.







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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    OK So you agree with me then that EV's are not a failure because they cost more then a gas powered car (currently - no pun intended) but that people aren't likely to choose something that doesn't give them an immediate benefit.
    Yes. If they were priced the same, then consumers would likely view them differently provided the infrastructure existed to make them not more inconvenient than today. This means NOT charging at home (too many places do not have that ability) and the consumer that they can "fill up" anywhere in America, any time. Those are big "ifs". Do that, and then we can talk about TCO. Until then its not going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    This is one of the reasons that I don't think there should be a cap on the $7500 tax break for EVs provided by the government, it helps with the "what do I get right now" aspect of buying an electric car, the government is incenting people to do something that they wouldn't ordinarily do as the government often does when it wants people to act in a way that is more beneficial to everyone overall instead of being myopic and thinking solely about themselves in the "right now". I've already pointed out before that ICE vehicles have had a 100+ years to get to the economies of scale that they are at currently and it would foolish to think EVs could get there overnight. I think EVs have closed the gap significantly to where many people probably do have a financial benefit of buying an EV over ICE in certain scenarios, but those scenarios aren't the "norm" or the "average" yet, but again, the gap is closing.
    Again, only if they sell $25K EVs with the ability to "charge up" in 5 minutes anywhere in the country, anytime. Average consumers will NOT tolerate inconvenience. They won't put up with it. This does not hold true for early adopters of anything. I buy a HDTV when there is no HDTV broadcast (stupid because its more money and no content). The same is true here. Early adopters don't care about inconvenience. But once HDTV content was everywhere, HDTV came down to the mass market prices at Walmart. Early adopters pay the price and the burden of their decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    Yeah I don't get cigarette smoking either but undeniably people do it and I just saw where Philip Morris is getting in trouble for promoting that vaping alternative to teens in other countries while telling our government that they would never do such a thing.
    And yet it is a prime example. The gov has done everything in its power, outside of making it illegal, and yet more and more young people take it up. And worldwide? The numbers are staggering. And they KNOW, the have to know, it will kill them.

    Go figure.

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    I think we agree here, my point was I don't not think people should equate MAGA (or insert current slogan here) to mean going back to the "glory days of the past" but rather if we want something to be "great" or "better" then we need to work on it and solve the problems we face, not take the easy way out of just doing something that was done in the past in a blind fashion...
    Agree. There is no way to talk about this without getting to the point. Politicians come and go. This slogan has nothing to do with "The good old days". Its not turning back the clock. Its not what some would make it out to be. Now why do they do that? Remember, I am agreeing with you here. It could be real hatred but I doubt it. Political expediency, party "lines', sure. Drama! But I'm leaning more toward one party truly never thought they would lose power.

    All life moves in cycles, up, down, forward, back. Cycles of life. Power will shift back and forth all the time and the founding fathers ensured it would built into the Constitution. Now if you change the "rules", throw out the Constitution, well that's not going to happen because to do that, you must do so within the bounds of existing law (or restart the War Between The States). This is why creating statutes and ratifying treaties is so important. If its not down in granite, and not ratified by the Senate (for treaties), it means nothing.

    Yes, I agree.

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    Chows, i'm not making the argument that the UN or others you quoted above are making. I never said we should abolish the US government and form a one world government, that would be foolish as single monolithic systems ALWAYS fail, only through diversity does life survive and thrive. That being said, I do think there are times that governments can incent people to do the right thing and that there is nothing wrong with doing so, if situations get bad then you can penalize as well as needed. If you read my prior statement I said I was in favor of a system of checks and balances and at times the government must act as a system of checks on unbridled capitalism and I think you concurred above when you talked about not having monopolies (aka monolithic systems doomed to failure) or charlatans peddling placebos as cures.

    I'm not sure how you took my statement that companies don't take into account their true total impact on the world into the UN wanting to tear down civilization and replace it with a new world order. I'm merely advocating that we have the capabilities today of doing some very big number crunching and if we wanted to, we could do a better job of assessing the positives and negatives of any given alternative as opposed to blindly relying on past patterns/practices. Use new capabilities for good!
    Fair enough. My bad. I thought you were pushing the world governance, we are all going to sit around the campfire and roast marshmallows direction. That will likely never happen (unless the Klingons invade).

    OK, "governments can incent people to do the right thing and that there is nothing wrong with doing so,"

    Here's the problem with that. This is the carrot and the stick. Its foundational that capitalism means money freely flows and is spent by consumers according to varies principles like supply and demand. You can ONLY offer carrots by taking other people's money. The government has no carrots on its own. Its only provided carrots by the will of the people through their elected officials passing laws.

    Now lets go to Friedman For some reason, some people think cutting taxes means less money flow into gov coffers. The reverse is true because more money is spent, more factories built, and more people make enough to pay income taxes at higher levels. The excess money doesn't rot in mattress. It goes to work to grow the economy. From Friedman, there are four kinds of money:

    Money you spend on yourself.
    Money you spend on others
    Money you spend that is other people money, and
    Money you spend on other people that is other people's money.

    In case one, you know very well you are going to be very careful with your money. You earned it, Its yours.

    In the last case, subsidies/incentives, they take OTHER peoples money and spend it on OTHER people. That is the WORST situation.

    Sure, there are checks and balances, but their is NO guarantee that the decisions of any politician is a wise decision, or just a decision to get votes. This is a major reason I believe many hate all politicians. What's a motivation for them (maybe not the entire motivation but a motivation)? Getting reelected. Please their voters.

    I accept that CO2 and temps is rising. I don't know it matters in the long run. I see many opportunities to make money from real estate development, moving companies (think how much money can be made there), tour companies in waterways in the Arctic. You see this is a problem with the doom and gloom crowd.

    All they see is death and destruction. An entrepreneur see opportunities. How much land where you can not grow food can now be made to grow food? What's under there? "They" say Antarctica used to be forest. Imagine what under there. There is an unseen world to explore. But lets assume it will be bad, people will suffer, how do we get the word out?

    Not how its being done today. .... next post.
    Last edited by chows4us; 05-16-2019 at 10:31 AM.

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    I didn't want to head into this but if you want to solve this problem - my suggestion. I don't buy into anything needs to be done but if you want to do it, then do it ALL THE WAY. Remember:

    This “isn’t going to require something that takes a few years, nor a decade, nor a generation. No. You’re talking about transformation of, on a GLOBAL scale:

    the entire transportation sector (autos, trains, shipping, airplanes);
    the food industry (tractors, farming),
    the very food humans eat (yeah, good luck with that);
    small engines (e.g., lawn mowers, chain saws);
    the military (good luck with that too);
    and the infrastructure that supports those sectors.

    This is not a generational thing. It’s a multi-century thing. It's an "ALL TIME THING". You can't just quit when the numbers are down. They must know that. They can't revert to the "old way". EVERYTHING, must change - FOREVER.”

    The current salesmen have failed, as by evidence of nothing happens. If anything, its worse. Who are the salesman? Those that:

    Salesmen who profit from it (e.g.,write a book)
    Salesmen who don’t walk the walk (hypocrites)
    Shout and scream because they don't get their way
    Those that proclaim they are smarter than everyone (and then wonder why no one listens to them because they have no people skills)
    Those that politicize the issue (an immediate loser as the other side will oppose it on principle alone)
    Those that offer carrots or sticks thinking "they know better"

    My suggestion on how to sell it to US. When I say "sell", I mean teach, which means selling ideas.

    ----

    Form a bipartisan, non political group that seeks to education the masses. Fire all the current salesmen. They failed and their techniques failed. Do not allow them to be part of this group nor consult with it. Their very names cause problems with discredited predictions.

    1. Do NOT allow any politician to say anything about the problem. By doing so you immediately lose half the population. Further, it CANNOT be part of any party platform or talking points. THIS IS NOT A GAME. Its life and death. The quickest way to continue losing the public is to continue to politicize a scientific problem. Mankind cannot lose half the population because some party want talking points.

    2. Do NOT allow anyone to sell who profits from selling (i.e., teaching). If you write a book, give a speech, etc. then money to produce a work you can keep to offset expenses and to pay the publisher. But NO profit from disaster. If there is profit, it goes to R&D for technical solutions, not the pocket of the salesmen. IMO PROFITING from DISASTER is, despicable.

    3. Do NOT allow anyone to sell who is not fully committed to leading. Walk the walk. Live the life. Eat NO meat (not just went you feel like once a month). Never transport yourself, no matter how inconvenient, using hydrocarbons. Do not heat or cool your house with anything but renewable energy.

    BE THE EXAMPLE. SHOW THE WAY. Suck it up for both you and your immediate household. Be a shining light on the horizon. Be the solution.

    4. Do NOT allow salesmen to denigrate their customers. They probably know far more about some other subject than you do. Be kind. Teach.

    5. Do NOT allow any salesmen to speak who is not an accredited professional in the field especially "journalists". The world is full of “journalists” who know nothing about what they are talking about but have the pulpit of a media “article”. They are experts in nothing. Eliminate them from your education effort (Not suppressing free speech but they are not part of your official effort. They can obviously say anything they want but NEVER be the mouthpiece of the effort. The more they speak, the more the opposition grows if they are tied to a political party).

    6. Offer ZERO carrots or sticks. This is NOT a game. This is not an effort to to try to get people to stop smoking for their OWN benefit. The public has to willing allow itself to convert the transportation sector FOREVER. ITs for ALL MANKIND. They have to WILLINGLY convert, jump on the bandwagon, and raise the flag - NOT be bribed or fined.
    7. Invest in the technology R&D for solution. Incentive innovation, NOT consumer behavior. If this is TRULY important, then resources have to be diverted AWAY from lesser priority items, and that will hurt VERY badly. No medicare for you. No Free programs for Arts and Sciences. No social programs for grandma to take some art class in SF and NYC. (I've gone over this list before). You have to be ALL IN- ALL OF IT - FOREVER.

    This is not a game. You can't go in half hearted. You have to be all in FOREVER. And that will mean some lesser priorities projects have to go. Tough decisions. Here. But if this is truly life and death of mankind, then you have to do it. This is why it can't be politicized. You can't have people trying to get voters involved. (very tough to do). Makes the tough decisions. Tell the public about the "entitlements" they can no longer have because R&D money is needed to save the population 100 years from now.

    8. Lose the UN. WWI and WWII are long over. While they had a purpose at one time and do some charity work, they are in the way preaching globalism. Never threaten the sovereignty of ANY nation or seek the transfer of wealth, by force, from the rich to the poor. The very foundation of capitalism the hope and dreams of poorer people to rise up the American dream, make something of themselves, and succeed. To then take it away is a slap in the face of everyone who has succeeded. They can do charity, but never forced.

    Remember, this is an ALL TIME THING - forever. This can't be forced. It has been willing.

    OMG, I can't believe I have a blueprint for selling something I don't think needs to be done but if you are going to get realistic, then get realistic. DO it all. Otherwise, just go home.

    Sigh, now I'm depressed Oh, and then, when you convinced the US to fix this, Do China and India. Go here
    https://www.windy.com/BLM?cosc,28.892,-114.628,8 expand the map full and scroll over the world. Where is that CO2 coming from?

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by philipwitak View Post
    since the dialogue here now apparently includes legitimate references to climate change, i'd like to reference the views expressed by bill nye, the science guy, on john oliver's "last week tonight" program last sunday evening on hbo - the final example of which, anyone truly interested can observe here [warning: contains mature views and language]...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jox0dtLNW_w
    Funniest thing I saw today! Thanks!

    BTW I was at a recent Earth Day gathering and there were some protesters there chanting and carrying signs about returning back to our climate in the past. So I asked one of them "Which climate do you mean? What period?" To which he didn't have an answer other than "before we screwed it up" well OK that could mean the climate of 65 million years ago, or 2.5 billion years ago and I don't think he would have necessarily liked either of those choices! He blew me off as someone who obviously just didn't understand.... sigh...
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  21. #879
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post
    You need better salesmen. He's attacked by the left (e.g., Bill Nye Does Not Speak for Us and He Does Not Speak for Science) and the right (e.g., Science Guy Bill Nye ‘Changes’ the Facts on Gender). Is he a scientist or "science communicator"? He preaches and its true because he says its true? Nonsense.

    This is part of the bigger problem of lousy salesmen. If they were good salesmen, there would be no problem getting money. Money would be pouring in. But the salesmen are people who fly private jets, own multiple houses, make predictions that don't come true, and here's a new one for you, the head of the UN speaking on Climate Change. From the Associated Press https://apnews.com/5771645c622d4717bffc3e33fbc20df9 You can read the article yourself. He's selling his idea. Sell Sell Sell. But what does he say?

    "Guterres, who said he used to love steak houses but now only goes once every three months because livestock contribute significantly to warming"

    Leaders set by example. They don't use private jets. They don't use private yachts and they don't eat at steak houses (or eat steak) EVER. That's not setting an example. Some might call that "hypocrisy". They do NOT walk the walk. Maybe its too inconvenient? Let me help you here. Hire salesmen that walk the walk. Try from the SGU, Cara Maria. She only drives an EV and is a "science communicator", not an actor like Mr. Nye comes across, at least to me, as acting.

    Now read the comments in the youtube on Mr. Nye. Read this comment from
    waverly246818: Calif. has $1 trillion in unfunded pension liabilities, so there's NO MONEY to save the planet. If you don't believe in the pension crisis, why should I believe in the global warming crisis ??" Is that true? Maybe http://www.pensiontracker.org sure looks like $1T. But this says its less https://www.ppic.org/publication/pub...in-california/ more like $240B.

    Its simple Maslow pyramid of needs. It would seem that cleaning up the streets of SF or having the money to pay pensioners to whom the money is owed is a lot more important to the public than worrying about some future event that might be no big deal, especially if tech solution are found.

    That is the problem you have selling this. Immediate needs of future events that might be meaningless. Choose your salesmen carefully.
    Maybe Mr. Nye walks the walk, i don't know. But some do not and appearances matter.






    Chows I'm neither for or against Mr. Nye, don't know him personally, but from what I saw of his tv series in the past he did a lot of work educating children about various aspects of science and nature. Whether he has a PHd in biology or is purely an actor doesn't really matter to me if his show is a quality show it will succeed and for a long time it was/did. With respect to that video it is funny but with a serious note, "hey we have problems and fixing them isn't going to be free so go do something about it" which echos sentiments I posted yesterday. In that regard he isn't selling to me at all, he is reminding me that I am just as responsible as the next person and I need to carry my weight, not make the rest of society carry it for me. So just take a minute to laugh at him in the video doing funny but thought provoking stuff and don't read too much into it.
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post
    5. Do NOT allow any salesmen to speak who is not an accredited professional in the field especially "journalists". The world is full of “journalists” who know nothing about what they are talking about but have the pulpit of a media “article”. They are experts in nothing. Eliminate them from your education effort (Not suppressing free speech but they are not part of your official effort. They can obviously say anything they want but NEVER be the mouthpiece of the effort. The more they speak, the more the opposition grows if they are tied to a political party).
    Here is why you do not want journalists selling. Different topic but the concept is the same. Read https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/1129095220409307136 and the comments below. There is, literally, a video and transcript showing the journalists report appears false.

    Now from Panorama, this month, p. 46. The claim is the car makers can't meet the 2030 EU emissions. The poor people can't afford EVs.

    Meanwhile, PAG is subsidizing the cost of the Taycan by up to $11,300. Why? Do they know they can't sell it? But its sold out.

    Anyway, Go ALL IN. And when you get the US all in, Get China and India too. Otherwise its pointless. This mean massive selling and cutting out priorities that other consider more important. And I don't mean Grandma's Painting class or dance class in SF or NY. I mean the serious money, not the millions but the trillions spent on entitlements. Then wait and see the pain and true reaction from everyone. There is limited money in the world but really ...

    If the world will end. If this is all true and we are all going to die, then they better do something about it NOW. If its not true. If they are gaming the system, then its all a scam.
    Last edited by chows4us; 05-16-2019 at 03:27 PM.

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