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Thread: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post
    It won't even be an unofficial time. It will be sharing the road with various other cars during an Industry Pool Session. It will be a publicity stunt, driven on a proverbial parade route and with no risk of being tied to a competetive lap time.

    From the article:
    "Lap timing is prohibited during Industry Pool sessions—there's often heavy traffic, with everything from supercars to SUVs, and while drivers can occasionally run a fast segment when traffic allows, it's impossible (and against the rules) to run a complete lap at full speed during Industry Pool."
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPHB View Post
    It won't even be an unofficial time. It will be sharing the road with various other cars during an Industry Pool Session. It will be a publicity stunt, driven on a proverbial parade route and with no risk of being tied to a competetive lap time.

    From the article:
    "Lap timing is prohibited during Industry Pool sessions—there's often heavy traffic, with everything from supercars to SUVs, and while drivers can occasionally run a fast segment when traffic allows, it's impossible (and against the rules) to run a complete lap at full speed during Industry Pool."
    This should be interesting. Elon isn’t all that good with rules.
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
    Didn't take long:



    Which brings me to reason #573 why the Taycan looks good at the high end of the EV market: you're not buying a car from a serial bullsh!tter. (And somewhat related to that, the odds of Porsche going bankrupt during your ownership of the car are also quite a bit smaller)
    I'm pretty sure that if Nico and a camera crew show up on a regular open drive day at Nürburgring and says "Hey can you wait 15 minutes before sending us out?" that the people gating traffic onto the Ring will be happy to oblige basically giving him no interference to go out and make a run.

    Now as far as reason #574 goes if you guy a Taycan you WOULD be buying a car from a company that DID basically go bankrupt on paper while trying to take over VW and in turn was taken over by VW in order to survive and bury some of the financial shady dealings. Then again VW is that company you can trust, you know like that VW Diesel you bought? No problems there right? Hey I'm the first to say that Musk has his moments on twitter but don't lose sight of what he and his companies have accomplished thus far in trying to move the world to sustainable energy so we can survive as a species...
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPHB View Post
    It won't even be an unofficial time. It will be sharing the road with various other cars during an Industry Pool Session. It will be a publicity stunt, driven on a proverbial parade route and with no risk of being tied to a competetive lap time.

    From the article:
    "Lap timing is prohibited during Industry Pool sessions—there's often heavy traffic, with everything from supercars to SUVs, and while drivers can occasionally run a fast segment when traffic allows, it's impossible (and against the rules) to run a complete lap at full speed during Industry Pool."
    "It's not impossible, I used to bulls eye womp rats in my T16 back home and they're not much bigger than 2 meters..."

    Seriously if Nico shows up with camera crew in tow and asks for a little space to be opened up my not sending any cars out for 10 or 15 minutes and then letting him go out he should have plenty of open track to set a decent time. But Tesla may actually be on to something here, Ring times reported by manufacturers are always best case scenarios run on closed tracks with professional drivers and potentially time saving items like weight reduction (back seat missing, etc.) and extra sticky non DOT approved tires. Wouldn't it be a better real life comparison to say let Nico go drive the Ring on a regular lapping day with regular traffic out there and see what the Tesla does and then regardless of the time set you can show some exciting dash cam video of passing other cars, etc. and say that your time is a realistic time, not a best case no owner is ever going to achieve time, but something more real and tangible. Go pick up a Tesla, take it to the Ring and this is what you can do. I'd much rather see that than another boring set of manufacturer highlights from a closed course. Basically Tesla going "so what, we can run the Ring too" when Porsche's advertising has basically been to repeat decade old information and claim Tesla cannot even do it. Elon has basically said "Hold my beer... "
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    Now as far as reason #574 goes if you guy a Taycan you WOULD be buying a car from a company that DID basically go bankrupt on paper while trying to take over VW
    You mean like You and Me, and about every one else here? Yeah, we all did.

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    Ring times reported by manufacturers are always best case scenarios run on closed tracks with professional drivers and potentially time saving items like weight reduction (back seat missing, etc.) and extra sticky non DOT approved tires.
    Are you 100% sure about that? Its been my understanding that while they might have all the performance options, and maybe none of the extra weight, like don't get PCM if its an option, I never heard they ripped out the back seat. Never heard that ever. Same with tires. Its run with what your sell. Never non DOT tires. GT4 would run with OEM N0 Pilot Sport Cup 2, 911s would run with OEM N0 or N1, year dependent, Pirelli P zeros (or whatever they are throwing on as OEM equipment) but never non-DOT tires. The whole point of the Ring thing is to put up a time, all things being equal, just with your best driver, but its the exact same car you can buy. Just spec it right.

    Is this right?

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    I'm pretty sure that if Nico and a camera crew show up on a regular open drive day at Nürburgring and says "Hey can you wait 15 minutes before sending us out?" that the people gating traffic onto the Ring will be happy to oblige basically giving him no interference to go out and make a run.
    Wrong, there is literally zero chance they would let him do that. Zero.

    The Nurburgring has very specific rules and they don't deviate from them by even a millimeter. On top of that they will not hurt their business to do Tesla a favour and then explain that charitable action to their regular customers who pay them millions a year for testing and lap timing. Heck since this year the Nurburgring even has a complete package for official lap attempts complete with a notary and film crew. It's not cheap, obvs.

    Now as far as reason #574 goes if you guy a Taycan you WOULD be buying a car from a company that DID basically go bankrupt on paper while trying to take over VW and in turn was taken over by VW in order to survive and bury some of the financial shady dealings. Then again VW is that company you can trust, you know like that VW Diesel you bought? No problems there right? Hey I'm the first to say that Musk has his moments on twitter but don't lose sight of what he and his companies have accomplished thus far in trying to move the world to sustainable energy so we can survive as a species...
    What on earth are you on about. If I spend 150k on a car now, I would only care about what happens from the present onwards. And Porsche/VAG are a heck of a lot less likely to go t!ts up than Tesla which keeps running out of money and is cutting everything from stores to R&D spending. Anything else is either a fallacy or a distraction from the facts.
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    While 'Ring times really don't prove anything other than how fast a specific car was on a particular day, it is a reasonable benchmarking process as the track, the rules and the timing protocols don't change. It doesn't matter what Elon or the Tesla marketing machine say, it's whatever vehicle they bring actually does in an official lap attempt. If Tesla attempts to spin a few laps dodging minivans and 20-year-old GTIs as anything other than a fun day at the track, they will be called out. Put up or shut up Elon.
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    One car is a luxury sports car built by one of the best companies, period.

    One car is basically a kit car built around an advanced powertrain.

    Both cars are overpriced.

    Both lose money on every unit sold.

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    If they put on R compounds or change the body in any way that is not OEM as sold to the public, then it doesn't count. Its well known that much of the times made up in the last few years has been because of tire differences. Its the reason touted for the 991.1 running 7:39.1, shocking many. Its the reason the GT4 runs PS2s OEM. That's like Porsche saying, "lets run with real slicks and then sell the 911 with Pirilli P Zeros.

    NO. It doesn't work that way.

    Now this is interesting, differences between the two vehicles.

    I told you that once those electronics get old, they would have a difficult time fixing them. "Apparently no one makes an automotive-grade 17" display, which is why some of those gorgeous Model S displays have banding issues even a warranty replacement isn't guaranteed to solve."

    This is another reason why a glorified smartphone is a very bad idea.

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by gcurnew View Post
    Plot thickens ... from the article :

    "We've also heard that a Model S, likely the one with the wicker and the Cup 2 Rs, was on the track already and was absolutely flying, pulling away from other cars, but broke halfway through a lap."

    Er, maybe not, after all. I think Elon needs to talk to UCLA Track&Field coaches. There is 100m, there is 800m and then there is 5,000m race. No modern athlete ever won 2 out of the three at the highest level. I believe there's a reason for it, but don't know enough about physiology to know why exactly.

    Of course, above, I am fully assuming that "broke down" is a code word for "fatally overheated past limp mode".

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    Last edited by CinciOH; 09-11-2019 at 03:17 PM.


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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post
    You mean like You and Me, and about every one else here? Yeah, we all did.



    Are you 100% sure about that? Its been my understanding that while they might have all the performance options, and maybe none of the extra weight, like don't get PCM if its an option, I never heard they ripped out the back seat. Never heard that ever. Same with tires. Its run with what your sell. Never non DOT tires. GT4 would run with OEM N0 Pilot Sport Cup 2, 911s would run with OEM N0 or N1, year dependent, Pirelli P zeros (or whatever they are throwing on as OEM equipment) but never non-DOT tires. The whole point of the Ring thing is to put up a time, all things being equal, just with your best driver, but its the exact same car you can buy. Just spec it right.

    Is this right?

    Well Porsche is being mysterious about it. First they said it was a pre-production model with no specifics, then after Tesla jumped in Porsche said "oh not it was a 100% stock production model".... so which is it? Since Porsche has never released ANY details about their Taycan run other than the time and a few still photos we will probably never know. In the mean time Tesla is getting ready to go Plaid!
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
    Wrong, there is literally zero chance they would let him do that. Zero.

    The Nurburgring has very specific rules and they don't deviate from them by even a millimeter. On top of that they will not hurt their business to do Tesla a favour and then explain that charitable action to their regular customers who pay them millions a year for testing and lap timing. Heck since this year the Nurburgring even has a complete package for official lap attempts complete with a notary and film crew. It's not cheap, obvs.



    What on earth are you on about. If I spend 150k on a car now, I would only care about what happens from the present onwards. And Porsche/VAG are a heck of a lot less likely to go t!ts up than Tesla which keeps running out of money and is cutting everything from stores to R&D spending. Anything else is either a fallacy or a distraction from the facts.

    Hahaha so you are being selective in terms of what you want to hear. You want to hear something Elon Musk said in the past as being "bad, psychotic, evil, whatever" but you don't want to hear about anything that Porsche or VW has done in the past.... OK... got it...

    Oh and about Tesla not getting to run the 'Ring, tune in on the 21st... cause you know, that's never going to happen right?
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by gcurnew View Post
    While 'Ring times really don't prove anything other than how fast a specific car was on a particular day, it is a reasonable benchmarking process as the track, the rules and the timing protocols don't change. It doesn't matter what Elon or the Tesla marketing machine say, it's whatever vehicle they bring actually does in an official lap attempt. If Tesla attempts to spin a few laps dodging minivans and 20-year-old GTIs as anything other than a fun day at the track, they will be called out. Put up or shut up Elon.
    They just did, just set a lap record at Laguna Seca, unless that track doesn't count or something...

    https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/11/...d-laguna-seca/

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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by CinciOH View Post
    Plot thickens ... from the article :

    "We've also heard that a Model S, likely the one with the wicker and the Cup 2 Rs, was on the track already and was absolutely flying, pulling away from other cars, but broke halfway through a lap."

    Er, maybe not, after all. I think Elon needs to talk to UCLA Track&Field coaches. There is 100m, there is 800m and then there is 5,000m race. No modern athlete ever won 2 out of the three at the highest level. I believe there's a reason for it, but don't know enough about physiology to know why exactly.

    Of course, above, I am fully assuming that "broke down" is a code word for "fatally overheated past limp mode".

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    Yes I would expect a standard Model S with the older battery pack and older style cooling to go into limp mode around the 'Ring, hence if they try for a lap record in a Model S it will need to have an updated battery pack and updated cooling at a minimum. The Model S constantly evolves, as do all Teslas, as Tesla doesn't stick to model years like other manufacturers they just add in new items when they think they are ready. I still think they should bring a Model 3 Performance as well. Looks like they will be testing a new Raven motor equipped (you can buy these now) Model S with possibly the new Plaid drive train like they just used at Laguna Seca which is also coming in the next few months as the continued evolution of the platform. I think more manufacturers should do this sort of thing, get out and test, try and break things, go back and make them better because we the consumer benefit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gcurnew View Post
    While 'Ring times really don't prove anything other than how fast a specific car was on a particular day, it is a reasonable benchmarking process as the track, the rules and the timing protocols don't change. It doesn't matter what Elon or the Tesla marketing machine say, it's whatever vehicle they bring actually does in an official lap attempt. If Tesla attempts to spin a few laps dodging minivans and 20-year-old GTIs as anything other than a fun day at the track, they will be called out. Put up or shut up Elon.
    They just did, just set a lap record at Laguna Seca, unless that track doesn't count or something...

    https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/11/...d-laguna-seca/
    Frankly, I don't think the big test for the Tesla at the Nurburgring is the lap time. And I dont put much stock on the Laguna Seca time. The true test for the Tesla on the Nurburgring are the splits.
    Laguna Seca is not even 3 miles, right?
    What can the Tesla do at mile 8, 10, 12?
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by K-Man S View Post
    They just did, just set a lap record at Laguna Seca, unless that track doesn't count or something...

    https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/11/...d-laguna-seca/

    It would have counted if an official had witnessed it. Apparently not.

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    And that Laguna Seca time isn't even official?

    https://jalopnik.com/tesla-didnt-hav...eco-1838064922
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    Same very solid points here as to why Tesla is full of it when it comes to the Nurburgring from a professional race car driver with experience there:

    https://jalopnik.com/the-nurburgring...hit-1838053508
    Last edited by JPHB; 09-12-2019 at 02:59 PM.
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    Re: Mission E - Can it compete with Tesla?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPHB View Post
    Same very solid points here as to why Tesla is full of it when it comes to the Nurburgring from a professional race car driver with experience there:

    https://jalopnik.com/the-nurburgring...hit-1838053508
    >>>To just decide to send a car out to one of the most difficult and dangerous tracks in the world on a whim because a competitor pissed in your sandbox is not only foolhardy, but potentially dangerous.<<<

    Elon's serial bullshitting and egomania are actually mildly amusing as it relates to business; no harm/no foul sucking in clueless "investors" to fund his myriad schemes (Space-X being the exception, as it's actually doing some kickass stuff, IMO, likely because there are mentally stable adults running the show). However a race track is no place for his "gunslinger" bluster and half-planned wet dreams.
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