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Thread: Auto Safety

  1. #21
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    Re: 2018 Leftover Inventory is huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post
    First, you went direct to an ad hominem attack, something the rules forbid. Then, you went to the red herring.
    Guys, please, chill.

    OK, so we are back to traffic deaths and all that good jazz. Not even a year ago I heard a news story that infuriated me so much I was ready to jump in my grocery getter and go downtown Cincinnati to the local station to yell into someone's face. Very briefly, jist of it was that "causes were not clear and the accident is being investigated" when a 22 years old run into a power line pole at 2 AM in the middle of the sharp corner.

    TL; DR people, leave. It will be long. Ish.

    What I wanted to tell that "journalist" in the face was many, many things ... and it is a good one that I let it go. So I had more than a year to ponder about the language, semantics, and all of that good stuff. So, I came up with a question for "general population" - you know? when you get downgraded to just plugging the guy in the head with baseball bat and he survives while really cool cats reside in the "death row"? That.

    So ... I am the stereotype of your average Porsche owner. White, 50-ish, "gym" is a distant and annoying relative to avoid at all costs, balding. And no driving talent to speak of. Very important, that one. But, I still participated to more than 20 weekends on a racetrack. Barely enough to get me into open-lapping Fridays without instructor, not to sign me into any paying gig for my driving skills. Now, please do not hate me, but this is the snapshot of 99% of people showing up on the racetrack any given Friday/Saturday/Sunday as organized by PCA. Yes judge? ... Yes, I will get to the point shortly, thank you for your lenience.

    It doesn't matter in which group you drive (D,C,B,A or A/I), exception made for open lapping Fridays, MOST people on the track are fitting my stereotype (or "archetype" if you are into Jung). Yet, these people, with no driving talent to speak of (otherwise, they would not be at Mid-Ohio testing a new suspension setup on their own dime, they would be at La Sarthe second weekend of June) are driving to the edge of their performance envelope (in n/10ths) or driving their car to the car's performance envelope (10/10ths) - all the while mingling with other talent-less people on the track at the same time.

    One more important point ... Yes, Judge, I'm definitely getting there. ... Thank you, Your Honor. The cars we drive on the track ... they are NOT racecars. For two reasons. First being they are driven by mostly talentless Average Joes, not Scott Speed or Jimmie Johnson or Lewis Hamilton or similar. The second being that most of them are mostly stock. Racecar has : full cage protecting you, 6-points harness keeping you in the seat with almost zero movement allowed, fire extinguisher, suspension setup that allows use of slick tires - way safer that street going DOT legal tires, brakes that never fade - under any condition. Most of us have not even 33% of the list above.

    Now from everything you heard and hold dear, if you believe THAT, there should be a "Dud Semetary" (for Stephen King fans) right next to the track because there will be Deathfest going on every weekend if you let loose talent-less average Joes to push performance envelope of their driving skill and their street-legal cars with no real protection for the racetrack "Oh $hit!" moments. Yet ... I still have to see a car leaving track on a tow truck. Sure, I saw many, many Ego-killing tows after track went under black flag, but I still have to see a tow truck dragging damaged goods away from the paddock, ambulance taking someone away or, god forbid, hearse taking someone away. It's. Just. Not. Happening.

    Now consider how we die on a stupid Walmart intersection with 35 mph speed limit. Why isn't ANYONE asking the right question? The right question being : why aren't these morons dying in droves? Every. Single. Weekend. ?!?

    Answer? It has NOTHING to do with technology. As a matter of fact, clubs started to put in bold font notices like (not verbatim) : "Cars equipped with any kind of driver's aid must have them turned off. Any car that can activate brakes without driver input will not be allowed on track."

    Find the answer, enforce it and your deaths/1,000,000,000 miles traveled will HALF, if not THIRD. ZERO "tech" needed, only the old-fashioned, DNA-made, inferior beings. Yes, of course I know the answer, but good luck with it. In this country, "Tech" is the answer, f%^&$ck anything else. Because progress. And because "too fu$%^&king lazy", of course. Let's see, especially from the "tech" people, why is it that even accidents are rare in that extreme environment, let alone deaths or serious injuries. This should be fun
    Last edited by CinciOH; 06-12-2019 at 06:36 PM.


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  3. #22
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    Re: 2018 Leftover Inventory is huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by CinciOH View Post
    Now consider how we die on a stupid Walmart intersection with 35 mph speed limit. Why isn't ANYONE asking the right question? The right question being : why aren't these morons dying in droves? Every. Single. Weekend. ?!?

    Answer? It has NOTHING to do with technology. As a matter of fact, clubs started to put in bold font notices like (not verbatim) : "Cars equipped with any kind of driver's aid must have them turned off. Any car that can activate brakes without driver input will not be allowed on track."

    Find the answer, enforce it and your deaths/1,000,000,000 miles traveled will HALF, if not THIRD. ZERO "tech" needed, only the old-fashioned, DNA-made, inferior beings. Yes, of course I know the answer, but good luck with it. In this country, "Tech" is the answer, f%^&$ck anything else. Because progress. And because "too fu$%^&king lazy", of course. Let's see, especially from the "tech" people, why is it that even accidents are rare in that extreme environment, let alone deaths or serious injuries. This should be fun
    Its not just tech, its human behavior.

    1. When you went to the track, did your car have a safety check? I'm pretty sure it did. When was the last time the state of
    Ohio did a safety inspection? Some states have them. Most do not. If you want to see this all in action, watch Live PD on A&E. Last night someone was driving down the road on a rim. ... ON A RIM. Didn't seem to care. You would not believe what people drive.

    2. When you are doing your laps, what are you paying attention to? What are the drivers at Walmart paying attention to? In 2016, 3450 deaths due to distracted driving

    3. Are you drinking at the track? Probaby not. In 2016, over 10,000 deaths due to alcohol.

    4. Do you have your seatbelt or harness on? Probably. In 2016 over 10,000 deaths - no seatbelt on

    5. Any pedestrians crossing the track? Probably not. In 2016 about 5,300 dead pedestrians

    6. Any motorcycles or bicycles? I doubt it. Nearly 7,000 deaths. Do drivers have more of a hard time seeing bikes?

    Its safe to say that while tracking your car you are paying attention, had a safety equipment check, were buckled in, were not drunk or used drugs, no pedestrians popped off the sidewalk into your way, etc.

    Now about that guy at Walmart? His mind is on shopping, kids screaming in the rear with the phone ringing, worried about his problems at home, pedestrians in the parking lot, might have had a cold one to "relax", etc. Do you think it might be a good idea to have nannies like ESC? BTW, the NHTSA has said that ABS does not lower deaths. It does lower property injuries. We've discussed that before.

    IOW, you pay attention, are not drinking, no pedestrians wandering onto the track, nothing but cars on the track. That person at Walmart? A completely different environment, so the government decides for the good of society to mandate devices they feel make it safer for everyone. Didn't work out so good for ABS but probably has for ESC and maybe back up cameras.

    Why do you die at 35. Why does Speed kill? Its those pesky physics equations, you know those equations they taught in physics 101 in HS? (Kinetic Energy = 1/2*m*v squared). Double the speed and the energy quadruples. This has been studied to death, studies are easy to find

    BTW, this
    Any car that can activate brakes without driver input will not be allowed on track."

    Yeah, probably not a good idea to be driving with ACC on while tracking. But autonomous braking is coming, without a mandate, because the car companies are just going to include it whether you like it or not. Will it save lives on the street? Probably. Maybe for the distracted drivers.

    Just a thought.


    Last edited by chows4us; 06-13-2019 at 06:06 AM.

  4. #23
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    Re: 2018 Leftover Inventory is huge.

    Thanks for playing. My insight and opinion is that there are only two things that explain why track events are so safe. Both are applicable on the street driving as-is, no extra training and no high performance driving schools necessary.

    1. Rules of engagement.

    Every single morning we all participate in drivers' meeting with chief instructor. Even people with 100 weekends under their belt - you would think they know passing zones and flags by now, wouldn't you? And yet, missing the drivers' meeting (and getting caught) will cost you the fist session because you will not be allowed on track. Why is that? It just might be that, after 99 weekends, this specific weekend and only this specific day (say, Sunday), there was a gigantic puddle outside of the track that is sending the water in a small river across the track right into the end of braking zone and turn-in point after a straight where passing was allowed for 99 weekends and even day before on Saturday. So, is it that you have got to know that because of your own safety? Yes, but even more importantly, not knowing that you cannot pass there will make you unpredictable to everybody else and bring forward extremely dangerous situation where all people are expecting you to do something and you do not do that. Self-braking cars are not allowed for exactly the same reason - the system activating the brakes didn't participate in drivers' meeting that morning and is, therefore, totally unpredictable to everybody else.

    Why is being predictable so important? Well, unless you are a Flash or Superman, you suck at reacting to anything - and that includes big names, too. It is a human trait. The biggest difference between Jimmie Johnson and Walmart Billy Bob is not raw reaction time, it is (in that order) using your eyes to drive, using your eyes properly while driving and experience. These three factors make Jimmie Johnson receive a text from the future on his phone - sometimes from just 0.5 seconds in the future and sometimes even 10 seconds in the future. These guys might look to us like cats with their reflexes, but the more mundane truth is that they saw it coming WAY ahead before Walmart Billy Bob. And the reason they saw it coming are very clear rules enforced with iron fist. Some chief instructors would make ole Joe Stalin blush. And that is a GOOD thing.

    The most important cause for the carnage on our roads (in my opinion only) is that very large majority of people driving are completely convinced, at the gut level too, that as long as they are not speeding and as long as they are sober, they cannot be wrong whatever it is that they do on the road. Because freedom. Because this is no communism, buddy. Which makes them utterly unpredictable and very, very dangerous. I still get to experience very good predictability on the public roads when I get back to EU multiple times a year. No, it is not at the track level, but you can still actually see that cars have body language and you can predict the future by just observing slight movements out of the normal line everybody would normally take. So, I KNOW it is possible to have that on public road.

    2. Use your resources for the task of driving

    As you said as well, the second biggest difference is that, on the track, everybody is allocating 101% of their resources to the task of driving. Making it very short, for as long as there is a single drive-through for food and beverage left open, you will not have safe driving environment. Most cars in EU have no cupholders, animals (by law) have to be in the carrier AND in the trunk if possible - certainly not in the lap of the driver, most people do not use cars as office and traffic engineering also discourages that to a point (quick example : traffic light will enable you to shoot an email, roundabout will not). Here is where I could see technology being deployed to save lives. Guess what? It will never happen. Placing a camera viewing the face of the driver and giving it a delimiter where driver's eyes can be considered "eyes up!" and scanning (as opposite to being fixated to something) is very easy to implement. When detecting driver's eyes everywhere else but "up!" (as taught in HPDE/DE), the car will simply alert the driver AND report him/her to safety agency. Say, 100 events (arbitrary number, TBD) count as DUI and the consequences are the same.

    If we could make these two things happen, considering how big are our roads and how, relatively speaking, there are not that many registered cars per lane-mile of the road available (it means less targets to hit on average), low speed limits and immense flat areas with very good visibility ... we could definitely get into top three nations worldwide as far as traffic carnage is concerned. As of now, we are flirting with second-world countries way more than with top tier of the first world countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

    None of that requires trillions of dollars we are totally ready to spend in making autonomous cars good enough and (the biggest part nobody is talking about) changing the infrastructure signalization from designed-for-humans to designed-for-computer. I will call that insanity, but I am pretty sure I am in a ludicrously tiny minority. Because we for sure couldn't find a better reason to spend couple of trillions other than on something that allows us to keep being lazy and ignorant.


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  6. #24
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    Re: 2018 Leftover Inventory is huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by CinciOH View Post
    1. Rules of engagement.


    2. Use your resources for the task of driving
    I don't think I disagree with either of these. Rules of engagement, sounds similar to that safety check for your car, just for the person. Does the public driver get that? No. So not as safe. I agree

    Your #2 is the same as what I said.

    I agree. But there is the societal issue that can't be ignore. Its the lowest common denominator thing. Just watch Live PD one day and you will see how bad the drivers really are, although they obviously pick out the worst in that live time slot where cameras exist. They pull them over for not using a turn signal and get a drug bust.

    People don't care. They do whatever they want. So society, though government, does its best to protect the innocent. Since people will NOT give up smoking, they set up ordinances and laws that protect people in public places - you can't smoke in this store or restaurant.

    Since people will continue to be distracted while driving and use a phone no matter what, they set up no phone usage laws as deterrence.

    Since people will NOT look back while backing up, they will force the cars to have back up cameras. Its better than nothing, etc.

    So government, because YOU elected them, within each state sets ups its own traffic laws and fines. And the at the federal level, because YOU elected them, via the DOT sets up federal rules. Its not a bad them to do whatever you can to protect the innocent from drunks, drug users while driving, habitual speeders, etc.

    Just think about it. Despite MADD. Despite all the arguments and stiffer penalties for DUI, every day people go out and DRINK and DRIVE. WHY? So if the drunk driver doesn't see that other car and autonomous braking might save an accident, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It might cost more but what cost for a life?

    Lowest common denominator.

  7. #25
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    Re: 2018 Leftover Inventory is huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by chows4us View Post

    Since people will continue to be distracted while driving and use a phone no matter what, they set up no phone usage laws as deterrence.
    Well, again, if we were serious about road safety, once we have a camera scanning where driver's eyes are looking and we enforce X instances = DUI = Y months without driving privileges ... I can bet money they would stop. Especially if the third offense makes them bankrupt (size of the fine). They drink and drive now because there is no mathematical certainty that they will be caught. If there were, nobody would drink and drive. Placing that camera that scans the eyes, it is mathematical certainty that you will get DUI if you do not smarten up and turn off your smart phone when behind the wheel of a moving vehicle.

    One more thing. In order to enforce predictability, you have to make sure all drivers know rules of engagement. That would mean that from, say, January 1st 2020, all drivers surrender their current DL, are issued temporary permit for 6 months and then have to pass a serious written test to demonstrate they actually know traffic laws and rules of the road.

    Really, neither is in realm of dreams as far as technical feasibility. Political feasibility? Forget about it, any politician actually doing that would be flayed alive and then shot in the head. All the while the population will keep bleating about safety and how children die unnecessarily on our roadways. What they will never do is take time and effort to learn laws and rules nor will they allow any tech that actually forces them to drive properly. If that is not insanity, then I don't know what is.


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