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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
OK, for younger crowd here, check the video below. This is what all us old farts have been complaining about.

Yes, the cars are even VISIBLY (without clock) ridiculously slow when compared to current cars in Monaco.

Yes, the fastest lap displayed at the beginning is around TWELVE seconds slower than pole position time in 2019 and around 8 seconds slower than 2019 fastest lap in race. On a track like Monaco, that is insane. That lap time (1:22.nn) might be in the reach of Verstappen driving his private GT3 RS around the track, that's how slow it is compared to modern F1.

But ... what you see in this video will keep you on the edge of your seat. Those two yapping the commentary does not help, but just listen to the engines being pushed to an inch from exploding - and that's exactly how they sound. There is no fuel saving/managing. There is no tires "falling off the cliff". There is no washout for the car that follows - that was still the epoch when aerodynamics were for people who didn't know how to make an engine - and there are literally INCHES between the gearbox of the car ahead and the nose of the car that's following. In the tunnel. At close to 200 mph.

THAT'S entertainment. As mentioned many times before, the only people entertained today are guys watching numbers on laptop screens in the Mercedes garage.

Finally, it is not just more fun to drive slow car fast, it seems like it is also more fun WATCHING slow cars go fast :)

 

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Discussion Starter #42 (Edited)
All right, just finished watching free practice 3 and qualifying. No spoilers here ,some of you might still watch recorded qualifying.

What I wanted to post here is the thing that happened in free practice 3. Unfortunately, only Twitter has a full video of it, so I will post the link below. All of you for sure know at least one guy who "I turn the nannies off the moment I enter the car. They hold me back and it is no fun". Yeah, track rats and normal people, we all know That Guy.

Well, let me tell you something. Even the Gods from Driving Olympus get caught with their pants down from time to time. And, in that moment, they would probably pay couple of years worth of That Guy's salary to have nannies in their cars. And have them ON. Especially just couple of hours from qualfying session's start. All it takes is completely dry track, benign curb and totally unexpected oversteer. Mind, as you will see in the video, this was NOT a snap oversteer; this, to me, looks like 0.3-0.5 seconds of "WTF just happened?!" and then all went downhill. See the video below. If it can happen to Him, then it can happen to anybody. Keep those nannies on - on the street and on the track if you can.

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1167756228744925185
 

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Discussion Starter #43
There was a time when "it sounds like F1 car" was meant to be awesome when applied to a production, street-legal car. Check the video in the article below

Rare Chance To Hear The Mercedes-AMG One, Sounds Like An F1 Car

It is about Mercedes-AMG One. Car looks really good in rendering, sounds like crap. Frankly, Ford's GT350 R sounds a LOT better. Not to mention a Cayman GT4 with modified (and probably illegal) exhaust. Had privilege to hear both live last weekend on the track. This thing in the video sounds pathetic in comparison.

Let's hope 2021 overhaul brings back at least some of the acustic apeal lost to the past.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

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Sorry but don't care about how they sounded. I do remember and wished they did sound like a car not a whatever that noise is now but they don't and aren't going to.
Writing on the wall; they will be full e-cars in a few years; if not sooner, and will have no sound.

What I want to know is, who's going to COTA RACE 11/1-3 ?
 

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Writing on the wall; they will be full e-cars in a few years; if not sooner, and will have no sound.
Maybe someday but not anywhere near that soon. Formula E has the exclusive FIA rights to electric single seat racing until 2038. The only way F1 could become electric in that time would be to join Formula E, and then it wouldn't be F1.
 

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That’s good news
What are engine changes coming up
Aren’t they going to change some big stuff
 

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That’s good news
What are engine changes coming up
Aren’t they going to change some big stuff
Lots of changes coming but I haven't heard any involving the engines.
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
OK, this is more about 2020 and 2021, but it was released during the 2019 season. Somehow, some people in the know and in decider positions (don't you miss him? the "decider" guy, I mean :) ) seem to worry that F1 might be a bit too much to follow. If not straight boring, at least not exciting enough. So, they proposed the idea to try, in some venues, different qualifying format for the next year. The bright idea is to replace Q1, Q2 and Q3 with a short sprint race and results of that will decide the grid. Catch? Reversed grid - the guy last in the current standings gets to be on the pole position of the qualifying race.

Reactions from the drivers were not kind, to say the least. The guy who cannot win a race unless he is in the lead after 1st lap even called it "bull$hit" in public :). Many drivers, the president of Driver's Association Grosjean included, went into a banter how the cars are too heavy, how tires are impossible to decipher, how aero is too strong ... and how fixing those "important" things will solve all the problems.

I frankly am not sure if it is just me who is totally delusional or these guys are not allowed to tell the straight story. Since I was a little kid, anything you can predict is boring. You start with throwing a ball against the wall with your unsteady 3-4 years old hands. It is a huge fun because you have no idea where the ball is going to go when it bounces of the wall. Then you get to be 5-6 years old with much steadier hands and that shtick gets really old really fast. So, what do you do? You throw harder. Then you pick a tennis racquet and hit even harder. When that becomes boring, you pick a human to stand over there and return balls to you - and that NEVER gets old because it never becomes predictable. I hope I rendered the idea of that.

Humans are fun to watch because, ultimately, they are diverse and resourceful - just as much as they are fallible and tend to get tired. Show of hands : how many of you would find entertaining to watch computer-controlled cars that are lapping a track with maximum efficiency at real 10/10ths and identical lap times - since they all have same weight, tires, chassis and aero? I would watch for 3 laps. If no fireballs ... I'd go and watch paint dry, that's much more entertaining. Totally chaotic process, impossible to predict in which area the pain will dry first. Entertainment value.

So ... I have to ask ... why is not a SINGLE ONE of these drivers asking for return to "driver's discretion" days? Only pit boards, no radios, no telemetry. No connection car-garage or, God forbid, remote actions done on the car. Wouldn't that bring back unpredictability and huge fun? I know, I know, I already complained about this. It is just that, in this occasion, they went overboard with suggestions and not a single one of them was "Just let us drive and make decisions."
 

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Well, we may get some delightful unpredictability on Saturday. Super typhoon bearing down on Japan. Now that would spice up qualifying.
 

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I am sure I'm in the minority, but I would like to see a return to manual transmissions.
Well, there's at least two of us. I would even go further and restrict the down force on F1 cars. I would do whatever I could to make the car more challenging to drive, so that the driver and not the car becomes the decider as to which car wins the race. Who knows, maybe if they did this, race leaders would actually pass each other on the track.
 

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Well, there's at least two of us. I would even go further and restrict the down force on F1 cars. I would do whatever I could to make the car more challenging to drive, so that the driver and not the car becomes the decider as to which car wins the race. Who knows, maybe if they did this, race leaders would actually pass each other on the track.
I don't see manual trannies as much of a differentiator. They would have to make some major changes to the chassis to get room for a third pedal, and that might make the cars even bigger, which no-one wants.

Downforce - yes, I think Cinci had some interesting suggestions earlier in the thread, or in another one. The main problem is that F1 refuses to do anything that would significantly slow the cars. They think that they would lose a lot of their audience if the lap times were 5-10 seconds slower.

Lewis seems to be pretty chuffed after seeing the data for the new (2021) design. They aren't going to go as far as many of us want, but if they can follow without burning up their tires, it has to be better.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Suzuka. Nothing to write home about (no, I wasn't there, it's just an expression). It was worth watching it because something important became crystal clear during that specific race. Sure, it is pretty clear at almost any race, but maybe because the mix of the cars involved and which cars TV-show director decided to show it was much more clear this weekend.

It seems pretty obvious to me that, once the driver gets to 5th position or higher, they do not know how to drive anymore. What Leclerc did in the first 40 laps of the race was very entertaining. Then team got afraid he will catch Sainz and race him as well, so they prevented that by pitting him - for no gain, just for the record. Hamilton starts busting ba||s to his race engineer as soon as they pitted him first time - why this, why that, constantly questioning the strategy. Once Bottas pitted, he goes flat-out on the radio "Tell me what I need to do to win this race?!?". He was on fire. Until he gets to Vettel - and promptly forgets how to drive anymore.

You know ... if it weren't for fabulous Ricciardo (what a pass in turn 1 on Perez and, later, Huelkenberg! - see link below), Perez, Gasly and others as well ... I would even try to believe the BS about "cars being so evenly matched" so that they cannot pass. Now look at the qualifying difference midfield between 6th and 10th and then look the difference 1st - 4th. Yeah, they are full of crap - midfield is even more evenly matched. I would simply admit that, once you get to 5th place or higher, you simply don't know how to drive anymore and move on. See how difficult it is to pass with a car that qualified 1.5 seconds behind 7th placed Sainz - for the record, 4th place was 0.235 seconds from the pole time.


 

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Downforce - yes, I think Cinci had some interesting suggestions earlier in the thread, or in another one. The main problem is that F1 refuses to do anything that would significantly slow the cars. They think that they would lose a lot of their audience if the lap times were 5-10 seconds slower.
When in reality, nobody will even notice a few % slower. Just give us real racing. Not tire/engine/fuel management exercise
 

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When in reality, nobody will even notice a few % slower. Just give us real racing. Not tire/engine/fuel management exercise
Agreed. I read that Pirelli could make tires that would last the whole race. The degradation is built into the the tires to require pit stops, which brings a degree of strategy. I think the issue is that the temperature window in which the tires work is narrow and is very sensitive to downforce and turbulence. It also varies by car and by race situation and the result it that we have drivers managing tires rather than racing each other.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
When in reality, nobody will even notice a few % slower. Just give us real racing. Not tire/engine/fuel management exercise
100% agreed. The far easiest thing to do in that direction, it would be to remove pit-driver radios and pit-car communications. No radios, no TV in the car. If driver cannot manage that engine by himself without 50 laptops between the garage and factory, make it simpler or lose races.

Everything else has been tried by now with sad results (fueling/no fueling, tires lasting whole race/tires lasting 5 laps, engines lasting 3 laps/engines lasting 5 race weekends).

Agreed. I read that Pirelli could make tires that would last the whole race.
Of course they can. If they could in 1970, they for sure can now. I am OK with tires that can't last the race - what I am not OK with is pit wall telling the driver when to stop. How often did you hear "My tires are fine, why are we stopping now?" question? Especially at Mercedes? More than once or twice, that's for sure.

Again, the boring part comes with what Alonso noted in different context in his last year in F1. Yes, sour grapes and all that, but he was even inadvertently completely correct. He said that (not verbatim) having super computers and super simulators means that the team will find optimal strategy to win the race in simulation. It will not be the best driver that wins the race.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
I was just reading elsewhere how to uncouple driver's championship from constructor's championship. Considering how most of "injustices" and terrible team orders happen because all the money is in constructor's championship and there is zero money in driver's championship, it wouldn't be a bad idea to separate them. But how?

Well, an old event just gave me the idea. Sometime in 1984 (IIRC) at the occasion of German Grand Prix at Nuerburgring inauguration (new F1 track instead of old Nordschleife), someone got a bright idea to give chosen F1 drivers (then current and retired as well) an identical Mercedes Benz 190E 2.3 16 and let them loose for about half an hour. Everybody was there waiting for Lauda to kick everybody's a$$ and for sparks to fly with retired James Hunt ... only to be disappointed when a punk nobody kid in his rookie year with horribly noncompetitive Toleman of all things left everybody in the dust. Can't remember his name ... it was Senna something or somesuch.

Why did I mentioned that in a bit of a detail and tongue-in-cheek? Just to emphasize how that race didn't lie at all and produced a just result. Oh, yes, some French guy going by the name of Prost was also in there, somewhere behind that Senna kid and Lauda at the retirement threshold.

So ... how about a feature race for points where all of them are driving identical cars, just like in 1984? How many of you would love to see them race identical 718 base Cayman? Or BMW M2? Or even completely stock Renault Megane or Honda Accord? Just to point out that there is no need to have the most extreme models for them to race. Every carmaker that wants their cars in there will have to pay big time for the privilege. They would fight to death for it. Money flows in, entertainment is so good that viewership doubles or quintuples over what is today a Free Practice 2 ... win win win scenario in my book.

What do you guys think? Aye? Nay? Other suggestions?
 

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I am sure I'm in the minority, but I would like to see a return to manual transmissions.
Notice how no one responded to this !
You watch a lap viewing what the driver has to do to go that fast - no way manual.
Make the engines bigger, sweet sounding, manual trans and no electronics and you have the 70's.
Probably would be more enjoyable to watch and listen to - but never going to happen.
Just watch video of old races.
 

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I was just reading elsewhere how to uncouple driver's championship from constructor's championship. Considering how most of "injustices" and terrible team orders happen because all the money is in constructor's championship and there is zero money in driver's championship, it wouldn't be a bad idea to separate them. But how?

Well, an old event just gave me the idea. Sometime in 1984 (IIRC) at the occasion of German Grand Prix at Nuerburgring inauguration (new F1 track instead of old Nordschleife), someone got a bright idea to give chosen F1 drivers (then current and retired as well) an identical Mercedes Benz 190E 2.3 16 and let them loose for about half an hour. Everybody was there waiting for Lauda to kick everybody's a$$ and for sparks to fly with retired James Hunt ... only to be disappointed when a punk nobody kid in his rookie year with horribly noncompetitive Toleman of all things left everybody in the dust. Can't remember his name ... it was Senna something or somesuch.

Why did I mentioned that in a bit of a detail and tongue-in-cheek? Just to emphasize how that race didn't lie at all and produced a just result. Oh, yes, some French guy going by the name of Prost was also in there, somewhere behind that Senna kid and Lauda at the retirement threshold.

So ... how about a feature race for points where all of them are driving identical cars, just like in 1984? How many of you would love to see them race identical 718 base Cayman? Or BMW M2? Or even completely stock Renault Megane or Honda Accord? Just to point out that there is no need to have the most extreme models for them to race. Every carmaker that wants their cars in there will have to pay big time for the privilege. They would fight to death for it. Money flows in, entertainment is so good that viewership doubles or quintuples over what is today a Free Practice 2 ... win win win scenario in my book.

What do you guys think? Aye? Nay? Other suggestions?
Racing in identical cars has been done before (IROC) - although that series was heavily weighted towards NASCAR drivers and oval racing. Wasn't all that popular. I like the idea of watching these guys occasionally race in cars that are more equal, but street cars may not be the best choice. On a weekend with F1 cars competing, street cars might look comically slow.

Hopefully the 2021 regs will be the start of a trend towards a more equal footing for all teams, but I wouldn't bet on it.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
I like the idea of watching these guys occasionally race in cars that are more equal, but street cars may not be the best choice. On a weekend with F1 cars competing, street cars might look comically slow.
OK, fair enough. Then let's give them Aston Martin Valkyries. But then you risk that everybody walks out of F1 race after 3-4 laps ;)

All kidding aside, there is something hugely attractive in seeing cars you see every day on the street, unmodified for racing (except for brakes and tires) taking corners at speeds that are contradicting God and/or Lord Newton. At least to me. I have no direct experience of cornering in an F1 car, I certainly do in many street going vehicles. That would be the reason to not use modified, top of the line models. But that is just my opinion, I understand that.

Hopefully the 2021 regs will be the start of a trend towards a more equal footing for all teams, but I wouldn't bet on it.
I wouldn't bet on it, either. However, if they are serious about budget cap and police it effectively, there is a glimmer of hope. It will still take at least 2-3 years to level off and, by that time, some people who were used to outspending everybody might decide to pick up their toys and go home. We shall see.
 
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