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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Although I have fitted a 3.8 X51 engine in my Boxster, I would like to have better mid range torque and higher output. Searching the internet I found the 4.1ltr conversion that 9FF and speedart are performing and I believe that 420hp with better torque would suit me well. Has anybody tried in long term? Track use?
Of course my aim would be 450-460hp but I do not believe that I can achieve this safely with n.a. engine.
I do not want to turbocharge it because I use my car in many trackdays (more than 15 each year), and I am afraid it won't be able to cope with this stress - I ve heard that in track stress the -european-turbochrged caymans bend their cylinder liners and crack their cylindar heads, even when they work low pressure like 450whp. Same goes with the compressors.

Ideas anyone?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It is not 9ff that I am after. This kit 4.1ltr is offered by many companies, sportec, ttp, actually it is offered by mahle I think as an upgrade and various automotive tuning companies are selling it. Has anybody experienced it?

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I would like to hear or see the accounts of these european turbo caymans with engine problems. I guarantee that our clients, including owner, run these cars at 10/10s and with pro drivers behind the wheel. What systems are they using? Surely none of the systems that we have sold to clients in europe have had issues. One of the biggest benefits to switching to our turbo system is actually aiding in oiling issues. What suspension/tires are you using?

We are building another X51 Boxster system now for a client down in the Southeast US currently.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Casey,

I use slick 18inch tires (Michelin or Conti Matador - 240 front, 280 rear, 9inch wheels front 11inch rear) and I have added the oil pumps from TTP, X51 oil pan, extension oil pan.
Never had a problem with oil starvation after the oil pumps fitted (I have a gauge measuring the oil pressure)
Suspencions is JIC Kross (which is far better than the Bilstein I used in myu previous setup), GT3 antisway bars, every gadgetfrom Tarrett(toe links, tie bars etc), quaife ATB, & GT3 arches fr and rear, GT3 brakes front, rear brakes my old front with 324mmdiscs, GT2 wheels arches front & more. It is the fastest Porsche or Ferrari in our race track in Greece (the bends are really tight and the straight is 780m so there is no space for a 997 turbo with 650hp to open the distance) but I do have a problem with Japan Mitsus and Subarus that have roll cage and more than 600bhp, these damn things are just too fast in the straight and in the corners are not bad, although I have better corner ewntry spped (do not have the torque though to get out as fast as I got in...)



By no means, do not get me wrong, I am not talking about your products, actually I do not know nor have I spoken anyone in Europe who has fitted them.

I know though two people who have tried a similar kit with 450 and 470whp each (Both tuning companies you and the other (I do not wish to name it) use actually the same turbos, same injectors I think and obviously you have some difference in ECU tuning) and the one faced a great wear in cylinder liners after 25 minutes continuous full boost in high speed event & and the other had a some kind of problem with the cylinder heads.
In my perspective, if somebody wants to really turbocharge a 3.4 or 3.8 and use it in track with a rev limit of 7.500rpm and true heavy track use, then there is a lot of labor that must be done in the engine.
Furthermore the cooling issue is another problem : mine with n.a. 3.8. X51 engine gets the oil temperature to 133 C (Celsius) after 3 laps of a track 3.5km, I wonder what temperature the turbo would get.
I do not doubt that yours can somehow perform better, but my personal problem with your or other kit would be the following :

If I decide to buy it, fit it and use it hard on the track (like a race car for 4-5 fast laps straight through, then coll down and start again - maximum 25 hard laps per day), and the engine fails, will I have guarantee? And will the guarantee cover the whole engine or just the turbo parts?

My preferred choice would trully be to fit a pair of turbos because then I would have the torque I need, the power would go to 500-550 at the flywheel and this way I could go for the record of all road legal cars here in Greece ion our track, but I am too afraid that I will have an engine failure and destroy all the fun about it... .
I am open to your suggestions and I would even consider building my engine in a way that would become bullet proof under any circumstances. If you can give me a guarantee that the engine will not break if I do not exceed scertain engine parameteres (such as rev limiter,k a certain oil temperature) then I would be happy to build a project with you.
 

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mpowersurf: Great comments and they parallel my thoughts as well. This is why I have no turbo and stick to N.A. mods of which in fact costs more than a turbo in the end.
We do similar races here. One lap warm up, 3 to 5 full on race laps and one cool down and that can be on some days when sometimes the track temp may hit 40C or more.
 

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I decided to put on the TPC turbo and only run 4.5lbs of boost on the track. I put 20 days on the turbo this past year, which is about 25-26 hours of track use. It's putting down about 380rwhp. TPC recently retuned it for me and now the torque is really steady at high RPM's. It's an absolute blast to drive!

Btw, I did replace the stock oil cooler with an X51.
 

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mpowersurf,

You raise some very interesting questions that I would like to address.

One of you primary concerns seems to be over track operating temps. In a Cayman S Turbo with a stock motor we generally see running oil temps in the range of 245-250 degrees F(118-121 degrees C) during track sessions. This temp is right in line with what we see Pro GT3 Cup Cars run during a race. If your car is running at 133 degrees C(271 degrees F) by the 3rd lap, then I would have major concerns about your vehicle's cooling systems. If your front radiators have been damaged, or the fins have taken too many rock impacts, or if it has become partially blocked internally, you would see a spike in engine temps.

Also, your temps could also be a result of your driving style. If you are in a dogfight with another car, and are constantly in the lead car's draft, than your radiators will not receive sufficient airflow, resulting in a temperature spike. This happens even to professional race cars. When this happens we always advise our drivers to try a different line than the leading driver to get some fresh air to the rads. This is often necessary to conserve the engine and finish the race.

Another cause for your high temps could be due to your engine's air/fuel mixture being too lean. When a motor is running too lean it will generate a large amount of excess heat that will transfer to your oil.

If your driving style is proper and you cooling system is functioning as it should, and your ECU's tuning is proper, you should not be seeing oil temps so high.

A couple last possible causes for your engine temps could be due to the fact that your X51 engine was never meant to be mounted in a Cayman chassis. The front cooling ducts for the front rads on a 997 are larger than those on a Cayman. Also, engine temps can be effected by what the weight of the oil you are running is.

As for your interest in more power. A turbo system on your 3.8L X51 motor would be an outstanding route to go with. It would be the most economical, reliable, and powerful modification you could perform to your car. Our last 3.8L Cayman you may recognize

View attachment 11492

When we finished tuning, this car was putting down over 500HP to the WHEELS!!!! Here is the dyno from that vehicle. This dyno was generated using 100 octane race fuel, as I'm sure you using on such a track focused vehicle. This car made over 400lb/ft of torque at the wheels. The car at this time was only pushing 6.5psi of boost.

View attachment 11493

When turbocharging any NA car, there will be some additional wear to internal components. Sometimes these stresses are measurable and sometimes they are not. However, this kit's success is due to that fact that it runs such a low boost pressure that added internal stresses are kept to the absolute minimum. We have many of these systems all around the world, and MOST of them see a good amount of track time. Our shop's test mule saw over 250 hours of hard on track diving with a pro level driver behind the wheel, and we never had a single issue except for a slipping clutch which we promptly upgraded.

While we would love to offer some sort of guarantee for your engine, i'm afraid we would only be able to offer warrantee coverage against defects in our parts for one year. We cannot cover any damage resulting from on track use. This policy is not something unique to us, but is share by Porsche and most other manufacturers. And I would be extremely surprised if any engine builder would offer a warrantee on any engine that sees any track time such as you are describing.

While a twin-turbo system would certainly be a neat thing to have, the added complexity of such a system would dramatically increase the cost for the end user and would not yield a sufficient performance difference. In addition it would also add much more weight to the car with all of the added plumbing and an additional turbocharger. If we were to sell a twin turbo system it would cost would easily be 2-3 times that of our $9,999.00 single turbo system. Our system has been tested through the most rigorous situations by professional drivers.

Here in the States, at TPCRacing, we have never heard of any other company producing a single turbo system for the Cayman. The turbocharger used in our system is a proprietary design, created by us, for us. If there are other companies attempting to duplicate our system, or just using a turbocharger of a similar size, we are unaware of it. As far as the ECU tune goes, that is another item unique to TPCRacing. Our systems are designed to operate perfectly seamlessly, with power delivery so smooth, that you'd swear the car came from the factory with a turbo.

Forced induction on Porsche vehicles is not something TPCRacing is new to. We have been doing this since the mid 1980s and have amassed more experience than any other company when it comes to designing FI upgrades for any NA or factory turbocharged Porsche vehicles. The only products that we decide to produce are those that provide real power gains while maintaining the vehicle's reliability and and overall driveability.

I welcome your questions, and would eb happy to answer any additional questions you might have.

Josh
TPCRacing
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
This is my car :

http://www.iimmgg.com/image/93a4a320c9697e9d2644e2d4ff4c5fc9

Josh you have an e-mail in the e-mail account of Casey. Let's hope it leads us somewhere...


About the oil :

I use W10/60 Sport Edge Castrol, is it good? I think the OEM is W0/40 Mobil 1, maybe this is the cause for the high temperature.

About the fuel :

I only use standard 100 octane (european) non race fuel

About the Psi :

What psi are you doing without racing fuel on the 3.8? What hp do you have without the racing fuel?

About the turbocharger :

What turbo are you using? Is it a Billet ?
 

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Although I have fitted a 3.8 X51 engine in my Boxster, I would like to have better mid range torque and higher output. Searching the internet I found the 4.1ltr conversion that 9FF and speedart are performing and I believe that 420hp with better torque would suit me well. Has anybody tried in long term? Track use?
Of course my aim would be 450-460hp but I do not believe that I can achieve this safely with n.a. engine.
I do not want to turbocharge it because I use my car in many trackdays (more than 15 each year), and I am afraid it won't be able to cope with this stress - I ve heard that in track stress the -european-turbochrged caymans bend their cylinder liners and crack their cylindar heads, even when they work low pressure like 450whp. Same goes with the compressors.

Ideas anyone?
Have you re-tuned your X51 to produce better 0-100 and 0-200? I remember that you were not happy with your times. I also have TTP, and am interested in doing what you are doing. Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I am still not extremely happy with the figures my car has, but I saw on the web what figures magazines have made with wendland, techart, speedart and ruf's cayman and all were from 15.5 to 16.7 0-200km.
So mine at 15.8 with two persons is ok, not as fast as I would wish for, but ok.

Is seems like the 987 intake cannot work as well as in the 911, that is why RUF states that his 3.8 X51 is 365hp and not 381
 

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You should be using the factory recommended Mobil 1 0W-40. If you can get Redline brand 5w-40 oil, that is our lubricant of choice. This could be part of the reason why you are experiencing higher oil temps on track. This is the same oil that we use in our GT3 Cup Cars. Keeping fresh oil in the car is one of the keys to ensuring long life from any high performance vehicle.

With premium fuel, you can expect to see 470-480whp(540-550bhp). You can also expect to see ~25-30 lb/ft of torque less on standard fuel. The boost for this power level is 5.5lbs. With boost pressure remaining so low, the added internal wear to the engine would be minimal.

The turbocharger used in our system is a proprietary size, but it would be similar in size to a Garrett T04 family of turbocharger. The standard turbocharger included in the $9,999.00 system does not included a billet compressor wheel.

I can understand your desire to make your car as close to bulletproof as possible. However, with our current system there really is no way to make the system more reliable. The M97 engine is an extremely strong unit with forged internals. The pistons, connecting rods and crankshaft were designed to withstand most track conditions around. With the optional boost controller, we could lower the boost slightly the conserve the engine. on a lower boost level it will be much easier for you to gain good exit speed when cornering. In terms of reliability, many owners drives these cars everyday. One owner is quickly approaching the 50,000 mile mark on his turbo system without missing a beat.

If you are using the car at the track, there will ALWAYS be an increased risk of harming your vehicle. Running any vehicle at 10/10 will always have an effect on the vehicle's overall reliability; this is true even on factory race cars. However, by properly maintaining your vehicle, you should receive many seasons of reliable service. Proper maintenance includes regular oil changes, once every 5000 miles or once a year. For heavy track time, oil should be changed more frequently. The only moving parts of your system that could potentially wear over time, would be the turbocharger and the coolant pump. However, as long as you keep your car well oiled, you can ensure that your turbo system remains 100% operational for a long time.

This is a separate discussion for another time but, if you are running full Michelin slick with your suspension, your parts are mismatched. If you would like to discuss your setup, we would be glad to help you optimize your vehicle's suspension to give you a better feeling car on the track and on the street.

This is my car :

IMG 2367 1 - Free hosted at iimmgg.com

Josh you have an e-mail in the e-mail account of Casey. Let's hope it leads us somewhere...


About the oil :

I use W10/60 Sport Edge Castrol, is it good? I think the OEM is W0/40 Mobil 1, maybe this is the cause for the high temperature.

About the fuel :

I only use standard 100 octane (european) non race fuel

About the Psi :

What psi are you doing without racing fuel on the 3.8? What hp do you have without the racing fuel?

About the turbocharger :

What turbo are you using? Is it a Billet ?
 
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