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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Back in 2010, we received this particular Cayman S for a turbo kit installation so that the cars owner could have more fun at the track and also when going out to drive the car. That was accomplished, and the car was a rocket! Three years later, after several track days and a lot of fun miles, the owner of this great Cayman wanted more power and something that would stand up to constant abuse on the track. After sitting down and thinking about the options, the 3.7L engine build with methanol injection was the way to go in order to take this project to the next level.

To do this, we had to tear down the engine to machine the block to transform it from a 3.4L to 3.7L. After machining the sleeves, the block was ready for TPC Racing custom forged pistons and connecting rods. By doing this, we were able to drop the compression from 11:1 to 10:1. This improves the torque in a huge way, making for huge torque while the boost comes in very smooth. With the methanol injection being set on a load demand, it will make the car pull even stronger but still smooth as it works through the revs.

The owners initial goal was to reach around 500 wheel horsepower. The first run we made without modifying the boost, we were able to put down just shy of 500WHP, so we knew that 500 would not be a hard reach. When we got into the next set of dyno runs, we went to around 6psi and went to add a degree of timing, and right away at around 6000RPM, the clutch started to slip. At this point we knew we were north of 500WHP! We took the car off of the dyno, put it in the air, changed the clutch and back on the dyno the car went. We did some adjusting with the methanol tuning and did a final dyno pull to make 537WHP!! That calculates to about 630HP at the crank! When driving this car, it is a true experience. The power comes on so smooth it's like it came from the factory that way. It is a pleasure to drive and just like with any TPC Racing Turbo Kit, the car drives completely normal. Once you start applying power and the boost starts to come in with the methanol, you open up a new world. Pull up to a 997 Twin Turbo or a Corvette Z06 and just pull away from them and leave the owners scratching their heads.

This is the most power we have gotten out of a 3.7L Cayman Turbo build. The lowered compression and custom internals of the engine plus adding the methanol allow us to run higher boost for a longer period of time. This 3.7L Cayman Turbo is the most impressive Cayman to date, and the owner of the car is now out and enjoying every moment with it!

Below is the dyno chart, and soon there will be a dyno video to follow this post.

 

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So, on other builds, you all had lower compression than that? I see...where the extra power came from. These cars would shine with E85. Don't know why everyone is so afraid to do this.:gossip:
 

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For real why screw with meth when you can just run e85? So much less headache to deal with, is it not available in the area?
 

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at least in my case with a gen2 car iguess using e85 is not that easy for you need special injectors (at least GT-R drivers I know using E85 had tochange them) and TPC does not touch the stock injectors in a gen2 car - and i guess them being DFI high pressure you can't just simply swap them ?
 

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For real why screw with meth when you can just run e85? So much less headache to deal with, is it not available in the area?
I am certainly not an expert, but the first implication is to the injectors. The stoichemetric air-fuel ratio for E85 is approx 8 whereas it is about 14 for gasoline. So to get the same energy into the cylinder, the injectors would have to be capable of about 175% of the volume of the existing injectors. Then the fuel pump would have to deliver 175% of the flow. That, in itself, is probably a showstopper. Also, modern car fuel systems are designed to tolerate 10% ethanol, but I am not at all sure that pieces of the fuel system would not dissolve in E85. I do not think there is any part of our cars that is qualified for E85 and I would not be the guinea pig for that experiment. Material selection for fuel system components is different and more restrictive for ethanol.

The bottom line is that adding the injection system is the simplest way to get the benefits of methanol or ethanol is to install a system that has compatible components. Then the only compatibility problems you may have is between the nozzle and cylinder.

From the air-fuel discussion above, you might ask if we are over-riching the mixture by adding methanol to the intake air. The answer is that our ECU adjusts the injector stroke based on the O2 sensor feedback, so essentially "corrects" the total fuel air mixture. One question I had at the start of the project involved the leaning of the mixture if we suffered a sudden methanol flow failure at high load. We are confident that the low ration of methanol to gasoline mixing is well within the ECU's capability to "recover" from a methanol flow failure without damaging the engine.
 
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I am certainly not an expert, but the first implication is to the injectors. The stoichemetric air-fuel ratio for E85 is approx 8 whereas it is about 14 for gasoline. So to get the same energy into the cylinder, the injectors would have to be capable of about 175% of the volume of the existing injectors. Then the fuel pump would have to deliver 175% of the flow. That, in itself, is probably a showstopper. Also, modern car fuel systems are designed to tolerate 10% ethanol, but I am not at all sure that pieces of the fuel system would not dissolve in E85. I do not think there is any part of our cars that is qualified for E85 and I would not be the guinea pig for that experiment. Material selection for fuel system components is different and more restrictive for ethanol.

The bottom line is that adding the injection system is the simplest way to get the benefits of methanol or ethanol is to install a system that has compatible components. Then the only compatibility problems you may have is between the nozzle and cylinder.

From the air-fuel discussion above, you might ask if we are over-riching the mixture by adding methanol to the intake air. The answer is that our ECU adjusts the injector stroke based on the O2 sensor feedback, so essentially "corrects" the total fuel air mixture. One question I had at the start of the project involved the leaning of the mixture if we suffered a sudden methanol flow failure at high load. We are confident that the low ration of methanol to gasoline mixing is well within the ECU's capability to "recover" from a methanol flow failure without damaging the engine.
Pretty soon I will have to introduce planet-9 to e85 tuning, but as a naturally aspirated endeavor...I will make a post in the 987 section. I think all modern motors can handle e85 save the orings in the injectors. They can easily be changed to viton. I would be more worried about the oiling and poorly designed m96/97 blocks than ethanol. Supras, Hondas, Nissan's, Mitsubishi's etc from the 90s and 2000s all use e85 with virtually no ill effect. Cheaper than race gas and safer than 91-93 octane.
 

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Pretty soon I will have to introduce planet-9 to e85 tuning, but as a naturally aspirated endeavor...I will make a post in the 987 section. I think all modern motors can handle e85 save the orings in the injectors. They can easily be changed to viton. I would be more worried about the oiling and poorly designed m96/97 blocks than ethanol. Supras, Hondas, Nissan's, Mitsubishi's etc from the 90s and 2000s all use e85 with virtually no ill effect. Cheaper than race gas and safer than 91-93 octane.
That would be a very interesting post. I am looking forward to it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
This is Kenny's car, and his post with the dyno sheet said they ran both 6 and 10 psi to get the dyno charts.

http://www.planet-9.com/tpc-turbo-kits/82052-3-7l-methanol-injection-4.html

Harris - I just get my turbo installed (which I'm loving), and now you show me these dyno sheets! You already gave me a price on the 3.7 liter upgrade. How much extra for the methanol injection?

Mike
Very glad you are enjoying your car! PM on the way with pricing info for the methanol kit.
 

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two things...

1) if you rely on methanol for octane, you're gonna get burned eventually. Methanol should never be used as a fuel source. For safe tuning, meth should only be used for iat supression. As fuel, your dme is not going to pull timing fast enough to hold back the carnage that will happen if your meth nozzle clogs or your pump goes out.

2) while I get the 175% additional flow for e85 use, is the fuel system already maxed out to get where tpc is at already? If so, is it the lpfp, hpfp, or injectors that are maxed? On the BMW 335, we're getting over 600whp with the stock hpfp, lpfp and injectors with an added inline low pressure pump on 93 pump gas. The trick was in the tuning. Does this platform's tuning options have the ability to adjust fuel scalars and injector dutycycle?


I am certainly not an expert, but the first implication is to the injectors. The stoichemetric air-fuel ratio for E85 is approx 8 whereas it is about 14 for gasoline. So to get the same energy into the cylinder, the injectors would have to be capable of about 175% of the volume of the existing injectors. Then the fuel pump would have to deliver 175% of the flow. That, in itself, is probably a showstopper. Also, modern car fuel systems are designed to tolerate 10% ethanol, but I am not at all sure that pieces of the fuel system would not dissolve in E85. I do not think there is any part of our cars that is qualified for E85 and I would not be the guinea pig for that experiment. Material selection for fuel system components is different and more restrictive for ethanol.

The bottom line is that adding the injection system is the simplest way to get the benefits of methanol or ethanol is to install a system that has compatible components. Then the only compatibility problems you may have is between the nozzle and cylinder.

From the air-fuel discussion above, you might ask if we are over-riching the mixture by adding methanol to the intake air. The answer is that our ECU adjusts the injector stroke based on the O2 sensor feedback, so essentially "corrects" the total fuel air mixture. One question I had at the start of the project involved the leaning of the mixture if we suffered a sudden methanol flow failure at high load. We are confident that the low ration of methanol to gasoline mixing is well within the ECU's capability to "recover" from a methanol flow failure without damaging the engine.
 

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We are not using the methanol as a fuel source. We are keeping the ratio of methanol sufficiently low that, in the event of a nozzle clog or pump fail, the DME will adjust timing and fuel sufficiently quickly to prevent detonation. The max fuel/methanol volume ratio we are running is about 15:1. With the methanol afr at about half that for gasoline, we are only "leaning" the gasoline by about 4%, still well inside the recovery range of the DME.

I'm really only using the methanol as a fuel additive to increase performance to the same level the engine would produce on 100 racing fuel. There is also the benefit of reducing the inlet air temperature. If I were truly after more power, I have no doubt that I could easily go over 700 hp but, at that level, a system failure is probably an engine failure.
 
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