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That is interesting, see my comments in the image below, surprising, I guess that Porsche can get away with 'sports car' sales like this if the Macan and others pay the bills?
No, no :) That website is just a snapshot in time, in that case in May 18. It doesn't matter. Sales have tanked. The 2013 981 was the best year. The 2005 was the beginning of the 987, which was even better but no Cayman. If you go back further in time, 986 sales rocked it. It's been all downhill.

Increase the price of gas in the States will assist in sales of all smaller cars. My wish is for a total ban on all SUVs and pickup trucks throughout North America. If you genuinely need a pickup that is work related then those drivers and only those drivers can get a pickup.
LOL, yeah, good luck with that. Since 70% of all cars sold are now SUVs and pickups, and gas is only going to go lower as the US is now energy independent (Monthly varies), and vast areas of the ANWR and off shore are still untouched, expect gas to go lower than $2.

But back to K-Man S's original question. I don't want to sidetrack this. Porsche will do what its always does. These are not numbered cars. They will build to n-1. If you think sales equal to or greater than 981 GT4 sales means success, prepare to be disappointed. The big numbers of sales (2400?) are pent up demand. That demand is done. IMO, no matter what they do, 718 GT4 sales will track with (no pun intended) 981 sales. Somewhat down from 981 numbers but not as bad as the Boxster numbers. But regardless of demand, they will build n-1.
 

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That kind of talk will get you strung up in my area. :) Buyers, especially women, love SUVs. I believe they are attracted to the practicality and perceived safety offered by SUVs. There's no doubt that millenials don't have the love of sports cars which earlier generations had.
I have to agree, a ban on pickups and SUV's is unrealistic, besides most millennials look at all vehicles with disdain, a necessary evil, most would rather Uber than buy and maintain any car!

Add to this not everyone can own multiple vehicles, so if they do need a SUV for family or a pickup for their day job perhaps they are likely doing all of their driving chores with one type of vehicle?

A quick search netted what I post below, there are multiple lists out there but most show a similar picture, given the top 20 models sold in North America only 5 are cars, the rest are SUV or pickup trucks...

FWIW the cars add up to a total of 1.2m and the trucks/SUV come in at nearly 5.5 million vehicles, so over 80% of the top 20 vehicles sold in North America are not cars!

20. Nissan Sentra: 213,046 units
19. GMC Sierra: 224,554 units
18. Jeep Grand Cherokee: 224,908 units
17. Jeep Cherokee: 239,437 units
16. Jeep Wrangler: 240,032 units
15. Toyota Highlander: 244,511 units
14. Toyota Tacoma: 245,659 units
13. Ford Explorer: 261,571 units
12. Ford Escape: 272,228 units
11: Honda Accord: 291,071 units
10. Chevrolet Equinox: 299,449 units
9. Toyota Corolla: 303,732 units
8. Honda Civic: 325,760 units
7. Toyota Camry: 343,439 units
6. Honda CR-V: 379,021 units
5. Nissan Rogue: 412,110 units
4. Toyota RAV4: 427,168 units
3. Chevrolet Silverado: 531,158 units
2. Ram trucks: 536,980 units
1. Ford F-Series: 909,330 units



I for one am doing my part to save the sports car, just look at my signature! :)
 

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That kind of talk will get you strung up in my area. :) Buyers, especially women, love SUVs. I believe they are attracted to the practicality and perceived safety offered by SUVs. There's no doubt that millenials don't have the love of sports cars which earlier generations had.
I am permanently disabled as I was rear ended by a Dodge Ram at 30 mph 50 km/h while I was riding my bicycle. I will never work again therefore I dislike pickup trucks. My brother drives one and doesn't need one. You are correct women love SUVs as they sit up nice and high. I would say what I said to any truck lover even if it does get me strung up. Anyway, have a good day.
 

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No, no :) That website is just a snapshot in time, in that case in May 18. It doesn't matter. Sales have tanked. The 2013 981 was the best year. The 2005 was the beginning of the 987, which was even better but no Cayman. If you go back further in time, 986 sales rocked it. It's been all downhill.

<snip>

But back to K-Man S's original question. I don't want to sidetrack this. Porsche will do what its always does. These are not numbered cars. They will build to n-1. If you think sales equal to or greater than 981 GT4 sales means success, prepare to be disappointed. The big numbers of sales (2400?) are pent up demand. That demand is done. IMO, no matter what they do, 718 GT4 sales will track with (no pun intended) 981 sales. Somewhat down from 981 numbers but not as bad as the Boxster numbers. But regardless of demand, they will build n-1.
Ahhh, I see thanks, it is interesting that even though (IMHO) the mid-engine car has gotten better with each iteration the sales are headed down, but when you consider my comment about the truck/SUV market it is easy to see why, the Macan is a roaring success proving there is a growing segment of the public that prefers that over a sports car.

So if you base success on sales numbers alone I still think it might be a tight contest 981 GT4 versus 718 GT4, with the right improvements the GT cars will be very desirable, what remains to be seen if this is enough for wide spread adoption or will most be happy with what they 'already' have?

Personally, I should even stay put but will be strongly tempted to take one more swing at ordering my perfect GT car... :burnout:

Oh, and yes n-1 ;)
 

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I have to agree, a ban on pickups and SUV's is unrealistic, besides most millennials look at all vehicles with disdain, a necessary evil, most would rather Uber than buy and maintain any car!

Add to this not everyone can own multiple vehicles, so if they do need a SUV for family or a pickup for their day job perhaps they are likely doing all of their driving chores with one type of vehicle?

A quick search netted what I post below, there are multiple lists out there but most show a similar picture, given the top 20 models sold in North America only 5 are cars, the rest at SUV or pickup trucks...

FWIW the cars add up to a total of 1.2m and the trucks/SUV come in at nearly 5.5 million vehicles, so over 80% of the top 20 vehicles sold in North America are not cars!

20. Nissan Sentra: 213,046 units
19. GMC Sierra: 224,554 units
18. Jeep Grand Cherokee: 224,908 units
17. Jeep Cherokee: 239,437 units
16. Jeep Wrangler: 240,032 units
15. Toyota Highlander: 244,511 units
14. Toyota Tacoma: 245,659 units
13. Ford Explorer: 261,571 units
12. Ford Escape: 272,228 units
11: Honda Accord: 291,071 units
10. Chevrolet Equinox: 299,449 units
9. Toyota Corolla: 303,732 units
8. Honda Civic: 325,760 units
7. Toyota Camry: 343,439 units
6. Honda CR-V: 379,021 units
5. Nissan Rogue: 412,110 units
4. Toyota RAV4: 427,168 units
3. Chevrolet Silverado: 531,158 units
2. Ram trucks: 536,980 units
1. Ford F-Series: 909,330 units



I for one am doing my part to save the sports car, just look at my signature! :)
But we are a dying breed. I have three sons who are all well paid and could easily afford new 991s, but none of them do nor do they have any plans to do so. They own SUVs and Toyotas, and they think I'm crazy for spending money on a sports car. Times are changing. When I was a teenager I always aspired to owning a sports car, and bought my first one when I was 22: a '65 Vette with a 327 ci, 350 hp Engine. I went from the Vette to 911s and have owned them for decades. I don't see my sons ever owning a sports car. I suppose guys aren't interested in cars like they were in my generation. I can still remember all of the interest in the Indy 500, and travelling to Indianapolis to watch the time trials. They use to have a couple hundred thousand just watching the trials. There is still some interest in the race, but no where what it was back in the 60s and 70s.

The GT4 will be a success because there won't be many built. Honda sees the writing on the wall, and has abandoned their plans to offer a new S2000. With each year I expect sports car sales to decline, until some companies will just abandon them altogether.
 

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Ahhh, I see thanks, it is interesting that even though (IMHO) the mid-engine car has gotten better with each iteration the sales are headed down, but when you consider my comment about the truck/SUV market it is easy to see why, the Macan is a roaring success proving there is a growing segment of the public that prefers that over a sports car.

So if you base success on sales numbers alone I still think it might be a tight contest 981 GT4 versus 718 GT4, with the right improvements the GT cars will be very desirable, what remains to be seen if this is enough for wide spread adoption or will most be happy with what they 'already' have?

Personally, I should even stay put but will be strongly tempted to take one more swing at ordering my perfect GT car... :burnout:

Oh, and yes n-1 ;)
Indeed true. Expect n-1. What not to expect is the excitement of a couple of years ago. With the "expected" GT4, just go back and look at the threads here. There were thousands of posts about a new GT4. The expectations were massive. And that's just one forum. People didn't know how to buy them.

Today? Meh. Where are the posts. Where are the thousands of posts? K-Man is right. There is more talk about the new Supra.


Honda sees the writing on the wall, and has abandoned their plans to offer a new S2000.
And Toyota has done the opposite. And its first new Supra sold at $2.1M at auction (for charity). It will be a success, at least for a few years. Who knows? Maybe we see a Celicia next ;)
 

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I don’t see how Porsche can put a NA motor into a 718. Turbos in the 718 and the 991/992. So I bet they put a base 992 motor into the GT4. It will sell well because it is limited edition and will not have a 4 cylinder.


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But we are a dying breed. I have three sons who are all well paid and could easily afford new 991s, but none of them do nor do they have any plans to do so. They own SUVs and Toyotas, and they think I'm crazy for spending money on a sports car. Times are changing. When I was a teenager I always aspired to owning a sports car, and bought my first one when I was 22: a '65 Vette with a 327 ci, 350 hp Engine. I went from the Vette to 911s and have owned them for decades. I don't see my sons ever owning a sports car. I suppose guys aren't interested in cars like they were in my generation. I can still remember all of the interest in the Indy 500, and travelling to Indianapolis to watch the time trials. They use to have a couple hundred thousand just watching the trials. There is still some interest in the race, but no where what it was back in the 60s and 70s.

The GT4 will be a success because there won't be many built. Honda sees the writing on the wall, and has abandoned their plans to offer a new S2000. With each year I expect sports car sales to decline, until some companies will just abandon them altogether.
I second this. At age 12 I fell in love with cars and spent lots of time playing with them, building models, dreaming of the day I could buy my first Corvette (have owned 7). My 32 year old son didn’t do this and thinks I’m crazy spending so much money on cars, not to mention convertibles. He is a doc and could buy one but has no interest, and he is one of the few his age that can drive a stick. I was on my second Vette by his age. None of his successful friends seem to have any interest either. They get more excited over a Tesla with a screen than the sound of a NA engine and the look of a tachometer. Clearly it’s a different world in automotive land.
 

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...

Today? Meh. Where are the posts. Where are the thousands of posts? K-Man is right. There is more talk about the new Supra.
And Toyota has done the opposite. And its first new Supra sold at $2.1M at auction (for charity). It will be a success, at least for a few years. Who knows? Maybe we see a Celicia next ;)
The Supra will be a good test for this market. My prediction is that it will sell well initially, but then the sales will drop off. Hope I'm wrong. A two or three year production run would be sad.
 

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But we are a dying breed. I have three sons who are all well paid and could easily afford new 991s, but none of them do nor do they have any plans to do so. They own SUVs and Toyotas, and they think I'm crazy for spending money on a sports car. Times are changing. When I was a teenager I always aspired to owning a sports car, and bought my first one when I was 22: a '65 Vette with a 327 ci, 350 hp Engine. I went from the Vette to 911s and have owned them for decades. I don't see my sons ever owning a sports car. I suppose guys aren't interested in cars like they were in my generation. I can still remember all of the interest in the Indy 500, and travelling to Indianapolis to watch the time trials. They use to have a couple hundred thousand just watching the trials. There is still some interest in the race, but no where what it was back in the 60s and 70s.

The GT4 will be a success because there won't be many built. Honda sees the writing on the wall, and has abandoned their plans to offer a new S2000. With each year I expect sports car sales to decline, until some companies will just abandon them altogether.
I second this. At age 12 I fell in love with cars and spent lots of time playing with them, building models, dreaming of the day I could buy my first Corvette (have owned 7). My 32 year old son didn’t do this and thinks I’m crazy spending so much money on cars, not to mention convertibles. He is a doc and could buy one but has no interest, and he is one of the few his age that can drive a stick. I was on my second Vette by his age. None of his successful friends seem to have any interest either. They get more excited over a Tesla with a screen than the sound of a NA engine and the look of a tachometer. Clearly it’s a different world in automotive land.
Where we were once mainstream we are now a subculture in the automotive world, those who actually want to get out and drive their cars, sadly an aging subculture as well, at the local Cars and Coffee it is mostly an older crowd, rare to see anyone in their 30's! In our teens we would save money for gas so we could simply cruise the main drag until we were so tired or low on gas that we 'had' to go home. I remember building our first dune buggy in Power Mechanics class in junior high, still not even driving age the principle let us all take it for a spin on the school field, nobody did anything crazy, nobody got hurt, we all had a blast!

Cars are rarely an investment (at least the ones I buy), so if they come out with the 718 Spyder/GT4 it will already be a success in my eyes and I will buy it if only to put a smile on my face. :cheers:
 

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My son is a car and bike aficionado, as are many of his friends. The don't do "cars and coffee" and hang out with us old farts, though. They'll occasionally get together a group, running sport bikes, R8s, GT-Rs, M3s/4s/5s, AMGs of all stripes...whatever shows up...and do impromptu runs outside the city. Other times it's just a couple of people on a Saturday or Sunday morning. Car (and bike) culture is still alive and well, but 911s (other than GT3s) aren't much in the picture. GT4s, yes...and from my experience with these younger enthusiasts, 718s are more interesting (tunable) and a better performance value than the previous generations of the mid-engine cars. Just because we don't see or interact with these people, doesn't mean they aren't out there. (Of course at the track, or on the autocross course, we all mix.)

Over time, I expect the younger generations will also see their "enthusiast" numbers thin out as kids, mortgages, education etc. supplant cars as preferred discretionary spending items. What will be left is diehards...driving electric bikes and cars and pining for the days of small-displacement turbos lol.
 

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Where we were once mainstream we are now a subculture in the automotive world
I'm not sure we were ever "mainstream". Sports cars are pretty weird in that they are not functional in the sense of carrying passengers or cargo, not cheap to maintain or TCO. I think maybe Muscle cars were mainstream and then Pony Cars. They sell a LOT of Mustangs. They are still popular. And I see Camaros often too. But even Mustangs are dropping in sales. Just go to the links and you can see sales dropping. I thinks sports cars have always been a small subset within the greater set of auto enthusiasts.

Over time, I expect the younger generations will also see their "enthusiast" numbers thin out as kids, mortgages, education etc. supplant cars as preferred discretionary spending items. What will be left is diehards...driving electric bikes and cars and pining for the days of small-displacement turbos lol.
Thats the cycle of life. A new generation will take over and it won't be electric bikes. Its the roar of the bikes that matter. The death of ICE is grossly overrated. There is a massive amount of oil in the ground waiting to be pumped. Its always about money and oil is black gold.

I see a fair amount of the younger generation still being auto enthusiast. I see Millenials working on their cars every week. I see them commenting on seeing a MT sports car and can't believe it. I've had people take their kid to my house just to see one. I've had people over doing something and they can't wait to see the car, and these are people of all ages. A lot of it is cost. And we all know, its not cheap to pay for everything. TCO matters. I also see the "kids" with their Japanese fart cans and they are having fun. Before a bought a Cayman, I'd go to Mini events. I've seen that crowd, they are very into modding, changing everything, bling, and they love it.

Its just where you look.
 

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chows4us;2104325 I see a fair amount of the younger generation still being auto enthusiast...ts just where you look.[/QUOTE said:
Bingo. At my office there are race track prints on the wall, seized calipers being used as paperweights, and almost daily heated debates about cars (we lost a full morning of work after the Supra was revealed lol). Were are a multigenerational design and development company, and while not everyone is car crazy, our passions cover street performance cars, sports cars, autcrossing, F1 and motorcycles. In my experience, male programmers are often gear nuts, whether it’s boarding, mountain biking, boats or cars...and sometimes all the above. If one is out of the marketplace where the younger generations work, they might believe the media hype that all they want to do is OD on social media, Uber around and buy electric. In my world, it ain’t so.
 

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Bingo. At my office there are race track prints on the wall, seized calipers being used as paperweights, and almost daily heated debates about cars (we lost a full morning of work after the Supra was revealed lol). Were are a multigenerational design and development company, and while not everyone is car crazy, our passions cover street performance cars, sports cars, autcrossing, F1 and motorcycles. In my experience, male programmers are often gear nuts, whether it’s boarding, mountain biking, boats or cars...and sometimes all the above. If one is out of the marketplace where the younger generations work, they might believe the media hype that all they want to do is OD on social media, Uber around and buy electric. In my world, it ain’t so.
Yep. There is one distinct difference from when I was their age. Back in the day, going to the drags was a thing. Going to see the Funny Cars and Pro Stock were a thing. Going to demolitions derbies was a thing. Who doesn't like to see real bumper cars? I don't Millennials even know what demolition derby is today. :( I'm not even sure where the local drag strip is. Then again, muscle cars have come and gone.

But my PCA does auto crossing all the time. They do the Local (which is not local but a long haul) track days. I, literally, see young people getting the socket wrenches out and working on their cars in their driveways.

The Mini people were, and probably still are, great auto enthusiasts. Its not a sport car but they love their cars. They loved modding them from performance parts to bling bling. All fun stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
No superbowl commercial for the GT4 but there was one for the Supra.... then again there was one for the Audi e-Tron coupe that doesn't really exist. Speaking of e-Tron did you hear the comments about it on The Grand Tour last week? Did you notice how much Audi wants to charge you to become a member of their charging network? They are charging a monthly fee just to be in their network. That's insane, no one else does that, chargepoint and all the others are free, many have free charging stations, others charge by the kw. Nope, not the Germans, it is fees on top of fees to where the cost is the same as gasoline. Yeah there's a sure fire way to increase adoption... :hilarious:
 

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Saw this article today:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a27210174/2020-porsche-718-cayman-gt4-spy-video/

This thing flies! Great sound and definitely a manual. Article says it is going to be a 4.0L.
I watched that video, then went a found others of the 981 GT4 filmed trackside on the 'Ring. The audio signatures for the 981 and the 718 are quite different, with the 718 sounding "muffled" in comparison to the 981. I still think there's a chance the 718 GT4 will be sporting a flat-4 turbo.
 

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I watched that video, then went a found others of the 981 GT4 filmed trackside on the 'Ring. The audio signatures for the 981 and the 718 are quite different, with the 718 sounding "muffled" in comparison to the 981. I still think there's a chance the 718 GT4 will be sporting a flat-4 turbo.
Spoil sport! ;)

Nah, its just that European mandated exhaust silencer thingy... :taunt:
 

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Yeah I hope that particulate filter isn't mandated for the USA. But if it's a turbo yay I saved a bunch of money. I just hope Porsche doesn't make the price ridiculous. Weird thing is I like the subtle curves the 981 has the ,718 kind of appears a bit ironed out. Others notice that or is it just me? Most obvious near the headlights area. Either way speculation has been rife and even with all these videos it's crazy how we can't figure out what motor it has lol!
 
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