Planet-9 Porsche Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am starting my search for a Gen 1 Cayman S track car and in parallel I am compiling a list of upgrade items. While I have come across a lot of performance recommendations I have not seen a lot of testing of upgrades with dyno results.

For example I came across the following package:

RS370 Package
Software- EVOMSit Software
V-Flow Air Intake System
Exhaust
IPD Plenum
Large Throttle Body
Pulley
Headers

Stated results are 371HP/309TQ

Has anyone tested to see if this (or similar upgrades) actually produce the stated HP?

I got a similar HP boost on my previous track car (993) but that required extensive head work, cams, etc. I am skeptical that just bolt-ons and software yield similar results.

Thanks!

- Harvey
 

·
Cayman The Destroyer!
Joined
·
2,632 Posts
These numbers, particularly the torque are very optimistic for a 3.4L. None of these mods with the exception of long tube headers will increase torque. I had a plenum, software, exhaust and pulley on my 07 and the WHP increase was ~22 whp over stock. All of it above 5,000 RPM. It did make a difference on track where I definitely pulled on stock 3.4's but I never really noticed it much on the street.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
34,503 Posts
Lots of info in the Modifications forum along with the dyno posting forum for specific mods. I think my personal best was somewhere like 333 or 335 HP at the rear wheels with bolt on mods and ECU tuning. Then again I've seen 987s with the same mods produce different power ratings so some of it must be inherent to the engine build initially as well as the quality of the aftermarket parts and install.

I would say the numbers listed for the mods you listed above are pretty optimistic, not that it couldn't happen, but likely a best case scenario. YMWV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
335 at the rear wheels is pretty impressive. Are the mods you utilized for those #'s posted in the forum?

Thank you gentlemen!

- Harvey
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
865 Posts
OP, Is your goal HP or lap time? If lap time forget about engine mods other then reliability mods. Suspension, Tires, and Seat Time are the key to lower lap times.
 

·
Cayman The Destroyer!
Joined
·
2,632 Posts
OP, Is your goal HP or lap time? If lap time forget about engine mods other then reliability mods. Suspension, Tires, and Seat Time are the key to lower lap times.
The mods Bill suggests would be first on my list but more HP never hurts!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
362 Posts
I've done and dyno documented a number of mods on my 2007 CS (IPD plenum, headers, catback exhaust, etc). Done very methodically, with baseline dyno and dyno after each mod. Mods and dyno runs were one one after another on the same dyno, same day. One of these day's I'll get around to posting them.

My general conclusion is that most all of the mods produced noticeable gains, and none produced claimed gains. Notable exception was an ECU tune that did not increase WOT power or torque at all. I'm getting ready to try a different tune (as it happens, from EVOMS which the OP mentioned in his original post), and should have some info on that next week.

On my car, I picked up about 20 peak hp total gain (a bit more in midrange) with the following mods: IPD plenum/82mm TB, catless long tube headers, AFe Power cat-back exhaust. End result was 292 peak WHP versus 272 baseline (important since different dynos will give different baselines). I believe a tune should be able to increase this some more (generally tuners claim 15-25 peak hp), but so far have not seen that. Should have results on the EVOMS tune next week.

Stay tuned, so to speak...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
2006 Cayman S w/ 42k on the odometer

Softronic Flash
B&B long tube headers (wrapped)
Fabspeed cup exhaust
Pulley
Evoms intake & desnork
Peak power 302 on a dynojet per NASA testing regulations

Swapped out the oem throttlebody and pleunum while still on the dyno for the IPD plenum and 82 mm tb.
Peak power 304.

Can post pics of the results this weekend. From memory the dyno graphs (which are overlay-ed) literally followed one another with zero improvement with the throttle body and plenum anywhere across the chart other than the peak which was 302 vs. 304. The IPD stuff does **** from what I've experienced, although I've seen others with differing results.

I was targeting 290 w/ out the plenum, and then when it made 302 so I was hoping for 315'ish with the plenum (and put the car on a diet to class up.) Instead I'm stuck between two classes with the damn thing making a whopping 2 hp with that mod. Long story short, I'll move to the OFT this off season and try to detune the car to 290 on the top end while keeping the map aggressive down low.
 

·
Cayman The Destroyer!
Joined
·
2,632 Posts
The 3.4L is an interesting conundrum in that the heads can flow a ton of air but you can't really use it unless you change the cams and shift the power band up the scale. This is a very expensive mod so you rarely see it done. It also reduces power down low so for a street car it makes it weaker in the low & mid rev range. Not to mention the fact that the stock lower end is very unhappy with an extended red line.

These are very expensive engines to hot rod and for intake, exhaust and software mods I wouldn't count on more than 30 WHP gain
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
The 3.4L is an interesting conundrum in that the heads can flow a ton of air but you can't really use it unless you change the cams and shift the power band up the scale. This is a very expensive mod so you rarely see it done. It also reduces power down low so for a street car it makes it weaker in the low & mid rev range. Not to mention the fact that the stock lower end is very unhappy with an extended red line.

These are very expensive engines to hot rod and for intake, exhaust and software mods I wouldn't count on more than 30 WHP gain
Spot on....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
147 Posts
I talked to a Cayman engine and tuning expert this week about my plans to bump my car up to 3.8 liters. In the course of our conversation, I mentioned the mods I have done--Remus exhaust, GIAC reflash, ipd plenum and GT3 throttle body, and told him about my dyno results, which were 283hp at the wheels. He said something really interesting: apparently, the ECU reads whether the front wheels are rolling. If it senses they are not, as they won't be on a dyno, it adds more fuel and timing. This skews the dyno results upwards. He said he had verified this by turning the front wheels with an electric motor while the car was on the dyno and watching the changes. The gains, of course, disappear in the real world once the front wheels are rolling again.

I found this all extremely interesting. It doesn't mean the mods don't work, it just means that the gains are difficult to quantify. But one thing I do know for sure--more cubic inches = more power.

Terry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Awaiting delivery of my RS 370 and cargrphic headers/exhaust (slow boat to Hawaii). Will use acceleration times as the feeler gauge of improvement. Darn these cars are expensive to hot rod. The parts cost me more than a set of really good SBC cylinder heads and valve train!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
568 Posts
I talked to a Cayman engine and tuning expert this week about my plans to bump my car up to 3.8 liters. In the course of our conversation, I mentioned the mods I have done--Remus exhaust, GIAC reflash, ipd plenum and GT3 throttle body, and told him about my dyno results, which were 283hp at the wheels. He said something really interesting: apparently, the ECU reads whether the front wheels are rolling. If it senses they are not, as they won't be on a dyno, it adds more fuel and timing. This skews the dyno results upwards. He said he had verified this by turning the front wheels with an electric motor while the car was on the dyno and watching the changes. The gains, of course, disappear in the real world once the front wheels are rolling again.

I found this all extremely interesting. It doesn't mean the mods don't work, it just means that the gains are difficult to quantify. But one thing I do know for sure--more cubic inches = more power.

Terry
Sounds like the same guy programmed the pesky VW oil burners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
362 Posts
Update with additional information:

Last week I installed the EVOMS RS370/ITC tune, and again dyno tested before and after. The tune resulted in an additional 8 hp and 8 lb ft peak, with gains throughout the rev range. Maximum gains occurred pretty close to the peaks, and I would say that the gains were 3-8 hp and 3-8 lb-ft over the rev range. While nowhere near the 15-25 hp claims sometimes made for ECU tunes, it is a real gain. Note that the tune was set up for 96 octane since this is a track only car.

Now, if I were to estimate overall gains I would say the following:

Documented peak gain of 28 wheel hp with the following mods:

  • Catless long tube exhaust headers (NHP)
  • Cat-back exhaust (AFe Power)
  • IPD comp plenum and 82mm throttle body
  • EVOMS tune
There are 2 mods in the "RS370" package that I have not documented:

  • Underdrive Pulley, which I have on my car but did not document gains. EVOMS lists this as a 12 bhp gain in their RS370 calculation, which seems rather optimistic to me but I have no documented proof one way or the other.
  • V-flow Intake, which I plan to install but have not as of now. EVOMS site shows 8 bhp gain for this in their calculation.
Note the EVOMS figures are bhp, not wheel hp, so are higher than what would be measured at the wheels. I'm guessing the total gain in peak wheel hp for all of the above mods is probably somewhere between 37 and 46 hp (depending how optimistic we think the EVOMS figures are for the pulley and intake). My money says it's probably closer to 37, since none of the mod's I've installed made the claimed gains.

Even at 37 wheel hp, this is in the neighborhood of 14% increase in peak power (46 hp increase would be about 18%). Of note, there was nowhere in the powerband that experienced a loss in power or torque. Driveability for me remains quite good -- but driveability is subjective and I don't drive on the street. ;) YRMV.

For comparison, EVOMS RS370 claims 25% increase in bhp and RS350 claims 19%.

Hopefully this is useful to some who are considering performance mods to increase power, or are just curious about the potential gains. I know when I was researching, I was frustrated by the lack of objective, documented data available for reference.

:cheers:

I've done and dyno documented a number of mods on my 2007 CS (IPD plenum, headers, catback exhaust, etc). Done very methodically, with baseline dyno and dyno after each mod. Mods and dyno runs were one one after another on the same dyno, same day. One of these day's I'll get around to posting them.

My general conclusion is that most all of the mods produced noticeable gains, and none produced claimed gains. Notable exception was an ECU tune that did not increase WOT power or torque at all. I'm getting ready to try a different tune (as it happens, from EVOMS which the OP mentioned in his original post), and should have some info on that next week.

On my car, I picked up about 20 peak hp total gain (a bit more in midrange) with the following mods: IPD plenum/82mm TB, catless long tube headers, AFe Power cat-back exhaust. End result was 292 peak WHP versus 272 baseline (important since different dynos will give different baselines). I believe a tune should be able to increase this some more (generally tuners claim 15-25 peak hp), but so far have not seen that. Should have results on the EVOMS tune next week.

Stay tuned, so to speak...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
192 Posts
I have a 987.2 and have 306 rwhp on a AWD dynojet. My mods are ipd, gt3 TB, itc tune, v flow, race fab speed headers and exhaust.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
147 Posts
Sounds like the same guy programmed the pesky VW oil burners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A very interesting point--if the car knows it's on a dyno and switches its tuning map, all kinds of mischief can be programmed in. It's the same company, after all.

Terry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
147 Posts
Update with additional information:

Last week I installed the EVOMS RS370/ITC tune, and again dyno tested before and after. The tune resulted in an additional 8 hp and 8 lb ft peak, with gains throughout the rev range. Maximum gains occurred pretty close to the peaks, and I would say that the gains were 3-8 hp and 3-8 lb-ft over the rev range. While nowhere near the 15-25 hp claims sometimes made for ECU tunes, it is a real gain. Note that the tune was set up for 96 octane since this is a track only car.

Now, if I were to estimate overall gains I would say the following:

Documented peak gain of 28 wheel hp with the following mods:

  • Catless long tube exhaust headers (NHP)
  • Cat-back exhaust (AFe Power)
  • IPD comp plenum and 82mm throttle body
  • EVOMS tune
There are 2 mods in the "RS370" package that I have not documented:

  • Underdrive Pulley, which I have on my car but did not document gains. EVOMS lists this as a 12 bhp gain in their RS370 calculation, which seems rather optimistic to me but I have no documented proof one way or the other.
  • V-flow Intake, which I plan to install but have not as of now. EVOMS site shows 8 bhp gain for this in their calculation.
Note the EVOMS figures are bhp, not wheel hp, so are higher than what would be measured at the wheels. I'm guessing the total gain in peak wheel hp for all of the above mods is probably somewhere between 37 and 46 hp (depending how optimistic we think the EVOMS figures are for the pulley and intake). My money says it's probably closer to 37, since none of the mod's I've installed made the claimed gains.

Even at 37 wheel hp, this is in the neighborhood of 14% increase in peak power (46 hp increase would be about 18%). Of note, there was nowhere in the powerband that experienced a loss in power or torque. Driveability for me remains quite good -- but driveability is subjective and I don't drive on the street. ;) YRMV.

For comparison, EVOMS RS370 claims 25% increase in bhp and RS350 claims 19%.

Hopefully this is useful to some who are considering performance mods to increase power, or are just curious about the potential gains. I know when I was researching, I was frustrated by the lack of objective, documented data available for reference.

:cheers:
Interesting data--thanks.

Back in my drag racing days, I ran a 5.0 Mustang. If all of the mods I made had delivered as advertised, the car would have been faster than a top fuel dragster.

Terry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
214 Posts
I talked to a Cayman engine and tuning expert this week about my plans to bump my car up to 3.8 liters. In the course of our conversation, I mentioned the mods I have done--Remus exhaust, GIAC reflash, ipd plenum and GT3 throttle body, and told him about my dyno results, which were 283hp at the wheels. He said something really interesting: apparently, the ECU reads whether the front wheels are rolling. If it senses they are not, as they won't be on a dyno, it adds more fuel and timing. This skews the dyno results upwards. He said he had verified this by turning the front wheels with an electric motor while the car was on the dyno and watching the changes. The gains, of course, disappear in the real world once the front wheels are rolling again.

I found this all extremely interesting. It doesn't mean the mods don't work, it just means that the gains are difficult to quantify. But one thing I do know for sure--more cubic inches = more power.

Terry
Terry -
I read this a while ago, and wasn't going to post figuring someone else would respond. That said, this is not the case and not the way ECU's are programmed or behave. I've been around ecu/dyno tuning and for 15 years both OEM and aftermarket (AEM, Autronic, etc) and if anything they go in the opposite direction for safety when one of the parameters (in this case wheel speed) is beyond a normal operating threshold.

Logically think about it - if you take an ecu that already has a flash with a lot more timing and the ECU were to arbitrarily advance timing because the front wheels weren't moving it would very likely detonate and actually make less power if it didn't grenade the motor first. ECU's (especially OEMs designed to protect the car for reliability) aren't written to look at a timing map and then based on something out of sorts "add a few degrees of timing."

One other point - if you add fuel you actually will make less power. While adding fuel is something OEM's normally do (lean is mean, rich is safe) to protect the motor this is counter to what is suggested. Also when adding timing, with equal amounts of fuel you will actually get a little more rich. So by adding both fuel and timing you are getting more rich still. Adding fuel only counteracts detonation due to excess timing to a point.

Not saying your guy doesn't know what he's talking about, but if he does then your post doesn't exactly represent what he was probably trying to get across. Not trying to start a pissing matching, only sharing my experience.

Best,
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
432 Posts
Back in my drag racing days, I ran a 5.0 Mustang. If all of the mods I made had delivered as advertised, the car would have been faster than a top fuel dragster.
Back in the early 2000s there was a magazine called 'Sport Compact Car'. At that time it was the best automotive magazine out, though due to the name most people were completely unaware of it. It still exists today but as shell of its former self. They had some great articles on mods and why they never seem to add up. Some highlights I remember

* Gains listed as 'Up to X hp' don't mean peak horsepower. It usually means at some where on the dyne chart there was an X hp increase. There could have been no change to peak horsepower and some places the horsepower and torque may actually drop. So logic like, 'My Car makes 320, this exhaust says up to 20 hp so that should take me to 340' is totally faulty.
* The 'Up to' phrasing also can include mods that require other mods. So an exhaust when combined with a cold air intake might give you that 20 hp gain (they test the stock exhaust with the cold air intake in place as well as the after market exhaust). So these lead to the additional faulty logic 'My car makes 320 stock, this exhaust says up to 20 hp, this cold air intake says up to 10, so I should be at 350 now'. It's quite possible you needed the cold air intake for the exhaust to fully realize its potential 'up to' 20 hp gain, which again may not even be a peak hp gain.

The reality being that mods change the torque and horsepower, often losing it in some spots, raising it in others, and possibly having limited effect on peak numbers. This is why (as several people have mentioned and are doing) you really have no idea until you dyno how the mods are playing together and how the tradeoffs play out for a given car.

It's clear many of you are totally on top of dynoing your car so it's not news to you, but maybe this helps explain the 'fuzzy math' used in calculating hp gains why things never seem to be as good as promised.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top