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Discussion starter · #61 ·
A year or so ago on another forum there was a post I believe by the owner of Flat 6 Innovations about the oiling issues on these motors. The author indicated one of the main issues was the oil feed design, that is the rod bearing closest to the rear of the car (#6?) being fed the oil that comes from the rear main bearing. The author indicated that the rear main gets the oil very hot due to loading from the clutch/flywheel at high RPM and then the oil goes to #6. During heavy track driving normal oils are too hot and break down. This is where the solution for professional grade $20 quart oil came from - it does not break down.

So I had the same concern so I used redline racing oil with ZDDP and it still blew. I don’t think the type of oil is the issue it’s most likely pump cavitation and aeration

Since then I have wondered if you were getting a full rebuild as shown above - could this oil issue be addressed?

As far the rebuild goes evospec doesn’t resolve any issues regarding the actual problem sense that can’t really redesign how the oil moves through the motor

Changing the oil feed location seems like it would require some major machine work but I think they do things like this on domestic V8 hot rod builds?

Interesting concept, however for the pump to have two separate pressure section it requires a big *** pump with like 4-5 sections of scavenging. I think it’s overkill.
As long as the oil is deaerated and pressure is continuously strong it’ll be fine. If the oil temps are low and high pressure it’ll make it to the back of the crank just fine. The problem becomes when there’s a loss of pressure, the oil that reaches the back is poor and causes those bearing issues

Would an oil cooler solve this? I wonder if the "track" rebuild that Flat 6 does addresses this "design issue". I dont think they will share their secrets on this.

I have a 25 row setrab oil cooler with a fan and temps were just fine.

M Garcia would you discuss with your builder and share here the details? If this is ann issue I am sure Cervelli addresses this on his endurance race cars somehow.
I wrote comments in the quote but did not highlight them lol sorry I’m updating through a phone

The dry sump is how Chris Addresses these issues which is why I am going the dry sump way. I will definitely share details of the build, oil pressures with the dry sump, final details, temperature, data etc.. I really want to help the M97/96 community that goes to HPDEs/ amateur racing with this issue
 
For now my build is staying with the wet sump, a properly clearanced engine with good rods and a deep baffled oil pan. One key reason is that I'll never be turning this engine past 6,800 rpm. My engine builder (Vision motorsports) is convinced that holding the RPM down in a properly built engine is key to the oiling issue. If I do go to a dry sump it will be a roll my own but I do like the idea of using the existing OP to scavenge the pan. If the heads are properly scavenged there's no need for multiple pick up points in the pan. I have four existing scavenge pump stages on the heads, 2 are used for the heads and two for the turbos. I would add a three section external pump with two scavenge pumps for the back of the heads and one pressure stage. The only place left for the tank will be the right seat area in an enclosure because my car is being converted to a single center radiator in the frunk area for aero reasons.

I told Vision if this engine blows from oil starvation I'm going to drop a TT Chevy small block in it. It will bolt right up to my Albins gear box and be cheaper than another Porsche engine. Make 1000 HP too ! LOL

I'll be very interested in seeing what you come up with.
 
Discussion starter · #63 ·
For now my build is staying with the wet sump, a properly clearanced engine with good rods and a deep baffled oil pan. One key reason is that I'll never be turning this engine past 6,800 rpm. My engine builder (Vision motorsports) is convinced that holding the RPM down in a properly built engine is key to the oiling issue. If I do go to a dry sump it will be a roll my own but I do like the idea of using the existing OP to scavenge the pan. If the heads are properly scavenged there's no need for multiple pick up points in the pan. I have four existing scavenge pump stages on the heads, 2 are used for the heads and two for the turbos. I would add a three section external pump with two scavenge pumps for the back of the heads and one pressure stage. The only place left for the tank will be the right seat area in an enclosure because my car is being converted to a single center radiator in the frunk area for aero reasons.

I told Vision if this engine blows from oil starvation I'm going to drop a TT Chevy small block in it. It will bolt right up to my Albins gear box and be cheaper than another Porsche engine. Make 1000 HP too ! LOL

I'll be very interested in seeing what you come up with.

Thanks Diver, I’ve actually read your thread multiple times. I would love to see the single mount radiator in the front ! And yeah I would agree with vision, the stock oil pump is a big issue. Keeping the RPMs lower make sense to avoid cavitation. My goal is to ensure that no cavitation occurs even if I over rev to 8K. I think I would cry if a 20K rebuilt motor goes to **** under 100 hours of use haha. I’ve contemplated LS swaps as well since it’s insanely cheap to replace a motor. What series do you currently race in? Which would you run with the LS ?
 
Thanks Diver, I’ve actually read your thread multiple times. I would love to see the single mount radiator in the front ! And yeah I would agree with vision, the stock oil pump is a big issue. Keeping the RPMs lower make sense to avoid cavitation. My goal is to ensure that no cavitation occurs even if I over rev to 8K. I think I would cry if a 20K rebuilt motor goes to **** under 100 hours of use haha. I’ve contemplated LS swaps as well since it’s insanely cheap to replace a motor. What series do you currently race in? Which would you run with the LS ?
I'll post pix when we do the radiator in April. I race with POC and PCA. I'm also going to try NASA. The class is GT1. No HP limit. A top tier Chevy will be around $30k with all new components and the turbos. Rebuild is around $5k. It would be loafing along at 1000HP!
 
Joshuaj/ARCflash on this web site has exactly that Chev motor in his 987.1. If you go back into his history on P9 you can see how he did it. He is listed in the vendor section, which is almost at the bottom
of the forums.

 
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Very cool man! How to do plan to stuff that V8 in there ?
I don't want to hijack this thread but as APEX1 has pointed out it has been done by several guys posting here. It would be easier for me to do it for the race car since we have already moved the firewall, the Motec ECU will run the Chevy engine and the Albin's gear box will bolt right up. My Porsche engine is making over 700 HP so if it lives that's more than enough for me!
 
mgarcia048, After going down a rabbit hole chasing a 3rd dual oil/vacuum oil pump for the head,(still available through TTP in Germany), I have devised another idea to protect the #6 rod bearing. The oil comes through the rear main bearing and is heated up more than the oil temp gauge says by about 50 degrees, so lets say 280 degrees before oiling the #6 rod bearing. I want to reduce this by the pictures below using CSF radiators and a GT3 oil/water exchanger. I can then run Mobil 1 FS 0W-40, which will allow my Porsche MotorSports AOS to pull out of the heads via the two pumps and the vacuum lines enough foam and oil to keep the main oil pump from caveatition during high G force long turns or threshold braking and rt or left turns. I can see the results with three mechanical analog gauges on my dash board hopefully in sports chrono warts glued into the top of the dash. Let me know what you think as you are going to try the GT3 route of a dry sump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmichael
So I've been reading up on some of the oiling issues on the M96/97 motors, and found that most guys who track their cars regularly see oil temperatures upwards of 250 degrees Fahrenheit.

Obviously, the most popular modification to combat high oil temps is the addition of the third/center radiator, and some vendors have come up with pretty good solutions like BRS's water/oil cooler to air/air oil cooler adapter. Some digging on the Planet9 forums turned up this thread.

Does anyone have any experience with the Vision Motorsports GT3 oil/water cooler adapter on our 997.1s? By my calculations, the GT3 cooler has 65% more capacity than the coolers on our M96/97-engined 997.1s. This should definitely make a difference in keeping temperatures down.

Seems to me like a GT3 cooler, along with a center radiator, deep sump pan and windage tray would pretty much solve all the oil-related problems for us M96/97 guys.



Carmichael,
Not sure if you are still active on this web site, but I am in the final phase of getting my 987.1 ready for the track this summer. Shortly I will have the car serviced by Cantrell for 3 CSF larger radiators in front and a GT3 oil/water exchanger. I also am having three mechanical analog 2 5/8 inch Autometer oil pressure, oil temp and water temp installed in my dash. These modifications, along with a LN deep sump/windage plate and a Porsche MotorSports AOS should be sufficient to prevent #6 rod bearing scarring. Below are a couple of pictures relating to my build out. The large mechanical gauges should be able to tell me if I am getting foam/air/oil cavitation at the oil pump head, allowing a quick reduction in RPM/G forces. My target is to keep the oil temperature below 230 degrees while on the gas and the oil pressure above 50-60 psi on long high G force left hand corners and threshold braking to rt or left corners. I may resort to using the LN bullit oil filter for race days with their Driven XP-9 oil to keep the pressure high. That filter has 80 micron filtering (much less back pressure) vs 19 for their recommended Napa screw on canister.

I am thinking about placement of the gauges so I can see them at a glance without interfering with track activities. Maybe I can order three Sport Chrono bumps or a 3 hole WRX gauge holder for my gauges and have Cantrell glue them onto the top of the dash? Not a fan of the gauges along the B pillar.

 
I know about oiling issues on the M97 ! When I bought a used cayman in 2011 it had already bigger AOS and deep sump with X51 baffles.
Long story, short result: On my first track drive (Imola) after a long left turn a rod bearing went bad.

Since then I installed a ttp scavenge pump to scavenge the right side front of the cylinder head. Never had a problem again.
If you don't want to spend so much: An easy solution is to use an electric pump to scavenge the right side cyl head front.
For you guys in the US there an address of very knowlegeable but absolutely mad piston heads: https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

Good luck
Andreas
 
Andreas, Thank you for your update on the TTP scavenge pump. Any idea where I could get one? LN and other install shops have said the supplier has quit making these pumps? While this season is pretty much locked into the current modifications of keeping the oil cool to the rod bearing, I would consider this for next year. rbracing have these or have an idea of how to hook up the electric pump for track use? Thanks,
Ken
 
Andreas, Looks like TTP has the scavenge pump and hose listed on their web site. I will order one for install later this year.
Thanks,
Ken
 
I don't want to hijack this thread but as APEX1 has pointed out it has been done by several guys posting here. It would be easier for me to do it for the race car since we have already moved the firewall, the Motec ECU will run the Chevy engine and the Albin's gear box will bolt right up. My Porsche engine is making over 700 HP so if it lives that's more than enough for me!
A built NA LS can make ~700bhp and is probably lighter then your turbo setup too ;)
 
Discussion starter · #74 ·
Quick update: Titan Motorsports in Orlando has taken hold of the car and dropped the motor out. I just received a message from John Bray at EvoSpec that they have the motor and the teardown will happen next week. Some exciting pictures are coming for sure. Also Titan and Evospec are going to be working together on the dry sump which is also pretty great. Hopefully, Titan can bring this dry sump to market in the future.

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All very cool stuff! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. I took another step towards dry sump do to another issue. I'm really feeling snake bit as a rock flew up hit the engine pully and popped off my drive belt for the water pump. It was during qualifying and by the time I pulled into the pit I had done some damage to the valve guides! I was lucky that the lower end is OK but since the engine is out of the car I had Vision add drain ports to the rear of both heads and the bottom of the IMS. I already have dual pumps on each head for the front and the turbos. So I'm ready to go to dry sump in the near future adding a 4 stage pump that will scavenge the new locations along with the existing pumps and will also use the existing pressure pump to scavenge the pan. So a pump for each corner of the heads and two pumps for the sump.
 
Discussion starter · #76 ·
Update:

John tore down the motor and found rod bearing #2 failed and caused all sorts of havoc. Luckily the crankshaft is fine and so is the block. I will posting pcitures as soon as I receive them


Quick question: Are there any mods I should do while the motor is out? i.e. lightweight flywheel, clutch kit, IPD plenum, wevo motor/trans mounts?

I've been told that the plenum can wait and money can be better spent on the car (I agree). Also LFW I am skeptical about considering that some cars have vibrational issues related to the crankshaft, is this true for the cayman? motor mounts are not really solid so do they make a drastic difference? Clutch kit, will the OEM clutch hold the 3.8L power? is not that much more, EvoSpec estimated 60 more hp/tq.

Any and all comments appreciated!
 
I have held off on clutch replacement for now since my clutch was relatively new when I got my 3.8. If you can access a better clutch, go for it. I assume you already have a free-flowing exhaust, so going for the "Competition" plenum and GT3 throttle body will give you some gains. Another thing you can look at is sourcing some X51 heads and intake manifolds. It could be a tight fit in there but those will give you a nice boost.
 
I recently replaced my motor mount with a Function First Orange insert and a new Porsche motor mount. To go with this your choice of a transmission mount. By sticking with Function First, you can get a semi solid mount. That would be as far as I would go without a lot of NVH, no matter what rpm you are at. Just the motor mount and FF insert will give a small amount of NVH at startup, but rapidly smooths out as the engine warms up. I have been satisfied with just the motor mount/FF insert. The transmission mounts are easy to install later or change to either stiffer material or softer ones.

I am surprised that your engine rod bearing #2 failed not #6? #6 has the weakest oil flow and most likely the highest oil temperature meaning more likely prone to failure. What was John's take on rod bearing #2 failure vs #6. What did #6 bearing look like? Was it scarred or have any heat discoloration?

Thanks,
 
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Discussion starter · #79 ·
Hey all,

So I have a quick update and a cool project. Block is still getting sleeve, and unfortauntely I haven't been able to get much contact with John. He has alot on his plate I'm sure. I'll get a full report when the motor's done hopefully :).


So I spoke to a friend who had his 3.4L built to a 3.8L with cam work etc by evopsec. He had a full exhaust but stock intake and made 321whp/280wtq. He said the torque looked like it was falling off hard after 6000RPM. So I told him it's probably the intake tract that is choking the motor. He buys a GT3 TB and IPD plenum and he said it was night and day. He is going to retune and dyno and I will post what he made after.

When the motor goes back in I am going update the intake tract.

The difference between the IPD plenum and OEM is the fact it is smoothed into a Y shape versus the OEM T shape. Also it has significantly greater area due to the TB.

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Now I am not going to go with an IPD plenum I will be custom making my own with aluminum piping and mating it to a GT3 TB. Main reason, it will be 85% cheaper lol. I will also be buying a 997.1 S intake manifold. It has greater volume than the stock 3.4L manifold and will bolt right in. The engine bay lid will have to be modified because it is a bit taller but that should be quick and easy.

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Another custom piece will be the actaul intake. Instead of keeping the stock airbox which breathes air near the hot tarmac and brake gas, I will be relocating it to the trunk. The new 4 inch intake will have direct path from the TB through the fire wall and into a custom box which will be fed by Subaru hood scoop. This intake was completely inspired by BGB and that have had great success with it running it on their 987.2 24 Rolex Cayman. (Link: https://rennlist.com/forums/987-981-forum/879450-how-to-make-a-cayman-breathe-like-a-911-a.html) They measured an increase of 3-4 mph on long main straights due to the ram effect of the large scoop. Also, the vent that originally feed the air box will now have a fan pulling in air. So double the amount of fresh air the motor recieves. Any comments and suggestions I am all ears!
 
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