[pcormier]

I know this is a controversial topic.

Is there a solution other than an accumulator (Accusump) that addresses the High-G force oil starvation problem in these cars? I am interested in a solution that works in a daily driver and as a track day car. It needs to be reliable, safe and live in the engine compartment, not in the passenger compartment.

I hear that TPC has a solution, if so I hope someone from there can chime in.

I also see that there is some Italian solution that scavenges oil from the heads more thoroughly. Is there any more experience with this solution on this board?

I am not interested in upgrading to a Gen 2.

Hope you're all enjoying the flat six growl.

 

[diverdog]

Search on TTP oilsafe. They are a german company that make a oil scavenging kit. $2400 including shipping. fixes the root cause.

The TCP turbo kit uses the turbo oil return to help the oil starvation. It does not fix the root problem. It will give you a little more time before you run out of oil. Mike L told me TPC is considering producing a stacked oil pump scavenging solution similar to the TTP.

You can also use an accusump but there is nowhere convienent to put it in a street car.

If you are an advanced driver using R comps I highly recommend that you add the TTP scavenging pumps or accusump. There is a high propability that you will blow your engine if you don't.

I wish I did!

 

[javelin]

You don't need any oiling solution for R comps. Slicks are another matter.

I am going the Accusump route, mostly because it is a simple install with filter attachment. I also like the fact that I can pre lube the engine before I start it.

 

[diverdog]

You don't need any oiling solution for R comps. Slicks are another matter.

I am going the Accusump route, mostly because it is a simple install with filter attachment. I also like the fact that I can pre lube the engine before I start it.

I strongly disagree! There are many folks on here that learned the hard way other than me. Including one I know that was on stock street tires. You do need an oiling solution for R comp tires if you can drive near the cars capabilities. Otherwise you are playing Russian roulette.

The 3.4 is a very strong engine with an Achilles heel. Fix the oil starvation problem and you are golden. TPC is pulling another 200 hp without durability issues.

 

[javelin]

I strongly disagree! There are many folks on here that learned the hard way other than me. Including one I know that was on stock street tires. You do need an oiling solution for R comp tires if you can drive near the cars capabilities. Otherwise you are playing Russian roulette.

The 3.4 is a very strong engine with an Achilles heel. Fix the oil starvation problem and you are golden. TPC is pulling another 200 hp without durability issues.

You're entitled to an opinion. I am a fast driver and my local track ( 1:54.4 @ Tremblant) is just about the best place to replicate the issue.

Turn 6 is left hand sweeper that forces you to either hold the car at just below red line or short shift. I do the first when I'm after lap times.

Over 40 track days later have had no issues with MPSC's. Others like myself have had no issues either. (thats about 5 of us at 30 track days+ each)

 

[diverdog]

I thought I was the exception to the rule too my friend. I have a broken #6 rod and a trashed engine to show for it due to oil starvation! I'd hurry up with that accusump if I where you.

With a modified suspension & R comps the car will pull amazing G's in the corners. The oiling system can't cope with it reliably. As I and many others have found out.

Looking forward to running Tremblant for the first time this summer. Really enjoyed Mosport last year and I plan to do both on an extended vacation.

 

[PolarPorsche]

You don't need any oiling solution for R comps. Slicks are another matter.

I am going the Accusump route, mostly because it is a simple install with filter attachment. I also like the fact that I can pre lube the engine before I start it.

I disagree, I had major oil starvation issues with my 2007 Boxster S when I went to R-compounds and minor issues with the OEM PS2 tires.

Making a hard left will bring the issue front and centre, I was black flagged twice because of the cloud of smoke coming out of my Boxster right after a high speed left turn. Also had major smoke issues at start up during most of the Autocross events I attended.

The Accusump route would be a good plan if you want to track the Cayman.

 

[Krokodil]

You don't need any oiling solution for R comps. Slicks are another matter.

I am going the Accusump route, mostly because it is a simple install with filter attachment. I also like the fact that I can pre lube the engine before I start it.

Javelin,

Unfortunately this is not correct. I know of 6 engines in 5 cars that have failed due to poor oiling where the cars were on either R comps (like me) or street-type tires. This is not an opinion.

You, like a few others, may either be really lucky or just a much better and smoother driver than the rest of us, but most will see a failure if the car is raced hard. Not for certain, but likely. My car went ~900 hours total and ~ 70 track hours, before it lost a rod bearing. So...

All,

Now, for discussion of the problem - The bearings fail because they are not getting enough oil or the oil has too much trapped air. So, the only way to fix (not band aid) the problem is to improve the quality and quantity of oil moving down the crank and out to the bearings. To increase the flow the passages must be improved both though grooving the main journals and increasing the size of the oil passages. This is an expensive fix, but it is a fix and not a crutch like the Accusump.

Also, the engine will benefit from the installation of competition quality connecting rods (Carrillo). The improved rods will resist deformation (both the rod and the bolts) and better handle the higher loads.

Additionally, the return oil-air separators (not the VOS, but the units in the sump) should be swapped out for the older 996 version. These improved "swirl pots" will better separate the air from oil returning from the heads. The 997 version (in the Cayman) are much less sophisticated (read cheaper) and do not seem to work as well.

Finally, a deep sump and windage tray should help keep the pickup in the oil and minimize or eliminate the need for the oil safe scavenge pump (which, according to some, is not necessary on the M97 as the scavenge system was improved over the M96).

There are pictures of all of these fixes in this thread: http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxster-tech/30204-causes-m97-21-engine-failure.html

Cheers,

 

[Gilles]

This is an expensive fix, but it is a fix and not a crutch like the Accusump.

Krokodil, it was nice seeing you today.

I know that the Accusump is not the best option to address the oiling problem.

Unfortunately, at this moment I cannot afford disassembling the engine to modify the crank and install the Carrillo rods, therefore I am seriously considering installing a crutch... (that's sound better than a band-aid)

I heard that someone managed to install a 2 quart Accusump on the 'tunnel' between the water pipes and the floor (if it really fits there), the lenght of the hose from the Accusump to the oil filter sandwich adaptor plate should be fairly short.

I am estimating that the price for the Accusump, the electric solenoid valve and the adaptor plate to be around $1,000

At list IMHO, this mod should provide some protection for the engine on the track, and when the rebuilt time arrives then it would be a good time for the crank and Carrillo rods treatment.

 

[pcormier]

ROS, Deep sump, TTP?

Krokodil,

So what I'm getting from all this great discussion is that the cheapest, and quickest things to address would be:

1. Deep sump (mantis or X51) with tray to keep oil from running up the sides of the sump.
2. Return air/oil separators from 996 like what you've done
3. Motorsports VOS? Is this necessary or does the ROS deal with the problem?

I can't really justify tearing the engine down for the crankshaft oil channel improvements. I assume the Rod replacement was done because your stock ones got mangled, and not to improve the root cause?

I still wonder if the TTP/Matheny Oilsafe system isn't the best overall solution. Although expensive, it involves no teardown, seems like it addresses the problem at the source? Or does it?

So, what would you consider conclusive data about a proposed fix? Oil pressure log data from the track on r-comp/slicks from a car/driver combination that has had catastrophic trouble in the past? Thousands of miles of track miles with no problems from same combination?

It seems like Porsche's solution with the newer Gen 2 engine was more oil pumps. Did they also improve the return air/oil separators? Did they improve oil passages too?

Thank you very much for all your contributions to this issue. I really enjoy this car, and want to make sure I don't have to rebuild the engine prematurely. I'd like to fix this once, the right way, even if it is expensive. I also realize that we could use more data.

Paul

 

[javelin]

I thought I was the exception to the rule too my friend. I have a broken #6 rod and a trashed engine to show for it due to oil starvation! I'd hurry up with that accusump if I where you.

With a modified suspension & R comps the car will pull amazing G's in the corners. The oiling system can't cope with it reliably. As I and many others have found out.

Looking forward to running Tremblant for the first time this summer. Really enjoyed Mosport last year and I plan to do both on an extended vacation.

Alright, I will concede as I am clearly outnumbered and atleast one of you ( Diverdog) has first hand experience with this. My car is with stock engine suspension mods are Shocks hats, bars, LCA's etc

I have ask, you never ran strickier than R comp rubber ever? even if just once or twice? I see from old posts that Krokodil ran Hoosiers...

Diverdog, who and when are you running Tremblant with?

I guess I've been lucky and maybe subconciously hoping for a 3.8 liter Motor LOL


As for Accusump, can someone explain why it is inferior to the other solutions? ( Edit: Just read Krokodils post and it makes sense albeit an expensive and evolved fix)


As I understand it.

Accusump holds oil and releases it when it detects a drop in oil pressure. I would think that oil sitting in the accusump would be void of air and be better than circulating oil in that regard. ( is this correct? ) The delivery mechanism is also pretty much fool proof ( airpressure vs oil pressure)

so what gives? I've asked accusump rep to look into this post and point out any inconsistencies.

 

[diverdog]

Nothing wrong with using an accuaump. I like the idea of prelubing the engine and it will provide a much larger safety margin by supplying oil when the main pump starts to suck air. My only issue is where to put it on a street car?

 

[javelin]

Nothing wrong with using an accuaump. I like the idea of prelubing the engine and it will provide a much larger safety margin by supplying oil when the main pump starts to suck air. My only issue is where to put it on a street car?

You still call that thing a street car? LOL.

 

[diverdog]

I drive it to work everyday and 10 hours to VIR or Mosport. Yep it's a street car!

I'm going to try & get to Tremblant 7/19-20 with Renn PCA

 

[PushingTin]

I think I'm hitting Tremblant 12-14 July, pity...

 

[diverdog]

I'm going to combind it with NNJR / UC at Mosport 7/23-25 Spend a couple of days before & after exploring Montreal & Quebec

 

[PushingTin]

Mosport is my 'home' track, a few dates there this year but going to try Calabogie the 3 days before I hit Tremblant, hoping to get to the Glen or Mid Ohio too, a busy year I hope!!

 

[4by4]

Another point worth mentioning is that if your a good driver and depending on the road camber, you can still pull a lot of Gs in the bend (1 to 1.1) on stock tyres (PS2s)! Enough for a potential problem.

 

[teoh2005]

Another point worth mentioning is that if your a good driver and depending on the road camber, you can still pull a lot of Gs in the bend (1 to 1.1) on stock tyres (PS2s)! Enough for a potential problem.

My car failed last yr on stock tires, stock alignment. New engine with TTP Oil Safe Kit has since been installed. Hopefully no more issues.

-Kevin

 

[Krokodil]

Alright, I will concede as I am clearly outnumbered and atleast one of you ( Diverdog) has first hand experience with this. My car is with stock engine suspension mods are Shocks hats, bars, LCA's etc

I have ask, you never ran strickier than R comp rubber ever? even if just once or twice? I see from old posts that Krokodil ran Hoosiers...

Diverdog, who and when are you running Tremblant with?

I guess I've been lucky and maybe subconciously hoping for a 3.8 liter Motor LOL

As for Accusump, can someone explain why it is inferior to the other solutions? ( Edit: Just read Krokodils post and it makes sense albeit an expensive and evolved fix)

As I understand it.

Accusump holds oil and releases it when it detects a drop in oil pressure. I would think that oil sitting in the accusump would be void of air and be better than circulating oil in that regard. ( is this correct? ) The delivery mechanism is also pretty much fool proof ( airpressure vs oil pressure)

so what gives? I've asked accusump rep to look into this post and point out any inconsistencies.

Unfortunately I have firsthand experience with this failure. Yes, I ran/run the Hoosier R6, which is a DOT R (R-comp) tire. More traction than a NT-01, but still an R-Comp and not a slick.

It is not that an Accusump is an "inferior" solution, it is just a solution to the problem after the low pressure/volume failure is already in process (hence my calling it a crutch). This was not an insult, just a comparison. The Accusump will solve/assist with the low oil pressure/volume problem caused by insufficient oil volume in the sump, this low volume a result of insufficient scavenging or high-g induced cavitations.

The TPP oil-safe kit should improve scavenging as it is designed to function like the old X-51 scavenge kit for the M96. This should improve the volume of oil in the sump and, I would theorize, reduce the frothing cause by large amounts of oil trapped in the head with a churning vavle train. However, my mechanic believes that this issue was reduced in the M97. As possible evidence is the fact that the M97 X51 does not included this additional pump, nor does it any longer have the blank cast into the head.

A concern (not saying it is a problem) with the Accusump, and to a lesser extent the TPP kit, is that you now have engine oil running through fittings and hoses outside the case and head. This introduces another possible failure point and exposes the system to debris etc. The Magnus Racing GS Cayman reportedly had to retire from the race because of a PS line that was cut by debris.

Not an expert, just furthering the discussion.

Cheers,