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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I hopefully I don't get chewed out here since I know this is a heavily discussed topic. But for all the people who TRACK their cars, I would love to get some definitive answers. I just got a an '07 CS 6spd who low miles for an excellent deal. I would love to either take it to the track or autox for fun without fear of blowing up me engine. Plan is to keep it in stock class for autox and no R-comps until I get a handle for things and an extra set of wheels. I saw LN engineering is running a special for their 2qt oil pan + X51 baffles (Bilt Racing 2QT Deep Sump Oil Pan Kit inc. Pickup-Tube Extension, Windage Tray & X51 Baffle - Bilt Racing Products - Products LN Engineering). Will this be enough? I see my options as:

1) Accusump -- Would rather avoid since this would detract from my limited trunk space. I'm trying to keep my car as stock appearing as possible. PITA to revert to stock
2) TTP -- More complicated install. Expensive. Also PITA to revert to stock
3) LN Engineering 2qt deep sump + X51 -- Easy install, easy to revert...but is it enough?
4) Forget the 987.1, and sadly trade up to a 987.2 when (who knows when that will be) a nice car shows up. Does it need anything for track/autox duty?

I'm pretty mechanically inclined but I left all my garage goodies when I moved. So it's hard to wrench in my current place :(...this also means no air tools, welder, etc. I only have basic hand tools and my current complex isn't too friendly towards dismantled cars. This is also my DD. With everything I've read here, it seems that everyone sadly says go with option #4. But then there are those few tracking 987.1s without issues.
 

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What is TTP

My understanding is that there are two issues

1. non dry sump so the oil pools in the heads in long sweepers eventually starves for oil

1a. with out the baffle and X51 deep sump this can happen in a relatively short turn when you add R comps/ slicks

2. oil cooling - the oil pump is not strong enough to pump oil through long hoses to aux coolers. This is a huge issue on the 911 I think.

All said they race the heck out of the spec boxsters. I think they solve these issues with an oil cooler in one of the side vents, and and accusump. They also run the X51 oil pan.

I am not sure about the oil set up on the 987.2, hopefully some one will comment because I am very interested but from what I am seeing these issues are not a big problem on the .2.

If I was going to run a 987.1 or box on R comps (which is what I would do) then I would follow the spec box formula. I wonder how they handle it on Spec 996? No room for an oil cooler back there?

IMS Jake runs $20 a quart joe gibbs racing oil that can handle ridiculously high oil temps. I dont like this as a solution but for some it might be acceptable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
TTP is referencing their oil safe kit that adds a second scavenging pump, see here:

http://www.t-t-p.de/english/info.php

It also comes from overseas which is a slight downside in my eyes in case there is ever an issue.

I just want to know before I tear into anything. Im really surprised such mods are needed to be safe. My prior cars only needed a baffled oil pan +/- oil cooler to hold up to R-comps on conventional wet sumps. But I guess this seems to be an intricacy with the flat 6 design.
 

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Its not the flat 6 design, all motors not dry sump can have issue on long sweepers, Corvettes were notorious for this.

You are right normally you would think Porsche would do a better job, what I have read and seems to make sense is that the M96/97 motors were designed in the 90s and Porsche was very close to going under, lots of cost cutting and figuring people would not really know or care that the cars were not track ready. The GT3 with the old design motor was for this. Also this was before the track day/DE phenomenon and R comp tires were not in heavy use or mass available.

I think if you stay on street tires you wont have problems but they are such a pain on the track, chunking and wearing badly its not worth it.

I heard a well respected indy say years ago "996 is not really a good car for the track". I started paying attention after that. Its just not really designed for typical track use at all. I believe the 9A1 motor has solved the problems mostly but I dont know much about them.

Had not heard of the TPP, interested to look into it. Sounds like exactly what the motors need.

I seem to remember that you could get a very expensive upgrade package that could be ordered from Porsche (like X51)that had additional scavenge pumps but I have never seen one.
 

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I read the web site. Interesting - $2K not even a terrible price, I think I remember there was two pumps like that - one on each head in the Porsche kit.. They also offer a large oil cooler set up but no details on where its mounted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I saw this thread but only one person who tracks his car responded. I was hoping for more responses, surely there are more who track their cars. I must admit that one guy who did the TTP kit and STILL had a failure was reassuring. I can't recall any who have had a failure with an Accusump, but I could be wrong.

My last track car was an MR2 Spyder that I swapped in a 2ZZ with just a baffled oil pan and Setrab oil cooler. It ran R-comps no problem.

It sounds like I may need to just sell and trade up to 987.2 which is sad because I'm so happy with my pristine current 987.1!! The previous owner really only used it as a weekend car and kept it garaged otherwise (<6k miles).
 

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But for all the people who TRACK their cars, I would love to get some definitive answers. ....
I did the deep sump kit with the air oil separators from the 997
I made 2 mods when installing the kit. I installed the new plate at the bottom of the block (the kit has spacers that put the plate lower which allows oil to escape from the sump area) and used a dremel to open the passages in the baffle to expedite oil drainage into the sump. You have to drill 2 holes in the plate for the air/oil separators because they have a larger base that protrudes down below the engine block. They also directly drain the oil below the plate which minimizes foaming issues. I run a little lower oil level now to keep the oil farther from the crank and to minimize the splash and foaming/ misting that occurs. I'm very satisified with the results. Easy project, no heavy tools required, can be done on your back on the floor under jack stands.
 

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I did the deep sump kit with the air oil separators from the 997
I made 2 mods when installing the kit. I installed the new plate at the bottom of the block (the kit has spacers that put the plate lower which allows oil to escape from the sump area) and used a dremel to open the passages in the baffle to expedite oil drainage into the sump. You have to drill 2 holes in the plate for the air/oil separators because they have a larger base that protrudes down below the engine block. They also directly drain the oil below the plate which minimizes foaming issues. I run a little lower oil level now to keep the oil farther from the crank and to minimize the splash and foaming/ misting that occurs. I'm very satisified with the results. Easy project, no heavy tools required, can be done on your back on the floor under jack stands.
Last year I bought a 70k mile 2007 CS and made these same mods. First track day on stock tires and suspension no problems. Second track day on r-compounds and it threw a rod through the top of the crankcase. I don't know much of the previous history on the car and didn't check over revs prior my purchase, but since it was very stock I'm pretty sure it wasn't tracked extensively. I'd say that you are rolling the dice with the M97 motors. Some have held up really well and others not so much. I've now installed a 9A1 engine so that I don't have to worry about IMS and oiling. Would be way cheaper to buy a nice 987.2...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Ouch...I will just enjoy it as a street car until I see a good 987.2 or maybe a 981. If my living situation ever changed that would allow a proper garage then I would love to find a blown 987.1 and through in a 3.8L.
 

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/\ ouch thats heart breaking

did you notice low oil pressure during the event?

How is the oiling n the 9A1, is it a semi dry sump?
No oil pressure gauge (you have to buy a 911 to get that stock). So unless it's low enough to trigger the idiot light you wouldn't know. It was bright red right after the bang!

From all that I've read the 9A1 oiling is pretty bullet proof.
 

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i thought DFI engines have 4 oil pickups, 1 at every corner of the sump - is this true?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I guess the only thing that hasn't been done yet for oil starvation is LN engineering's dual pump kit (Bilt Racing Dual Tandem Oil Scavenge Pump Kit, Banks 1-3, 4-6 - Bilt Racing Products - Products LN Engineering). This would effectively turn a M97 setup just like the 9A1. But at $3k you have to consider whether it's worth it or better to just upgrade to a 987.2...

It seems from threads on the forum here that the 987.2 may not have oil starvation issues on the track but it still needs an external oil cooler to bring down temps.
 

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I haven't monitored oil temps but adding a 3rd radiator will help with water temps thereby also helping oil temps.

Beyond just getting the oil out of the heads on the M97 there are concerns with getting enough oil to the rod bearing at the center of the crank. There are threads where some companies have done some custom machining to alleviate this issue. Of course this requires disassembly of the engine which is several $k just in labor before you refresh anything else while you're in there. By the time you're done building a really robust M97 I suspect that you'd be in for at least $15k - $20k. That easily makes up the price difference for an 987.2.
 

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I guess you could pick any car/motor apart when taking a vehicle designed for the street and putting it on the track....but, its Porsche

Maybe some day you can buy a Cayman for $5K and make the $15K to $20K investment in the motor worthwhile for track work. Right now the economics dont make sense....oh wait I can get a Boxster for that but I dont want a boxster....what is a car enthusiast to do :)
 

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did you notice low oil pressure during the event?
That is a common misconception that you will see a drop in pressure. The oil pressure gauge does not have the ability to show the minor variations constantly occuring in the oil pressure. Your oil can foam during a race and can cause a bearing failure even though the pressure gauge never showed a drop in pressure. I had a bearing failure in a race car due to foaming and the gauge never dipped once during the entire race. It wasn't until I was on my cool down lap that I saw a severe drop in pressure and I shut down the engine. At 5000 to 7000 rpm the pressure was always over 55 psi. When in the pits, we listened the engine and then saw the bearing particles in the sump tank. Bearing failed but the engine held together. Another lap or two and it would have been a different ending to that story.
 

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I haven't monitored oil temps but adding a 3rd radiator will help with water temps thereby also helping oil temps.
There is a lot of research available that shows oil temperature at the bearing (where it really matters) is not influenced enough by the cooling system to try to extend oil performance or engine life via additional water cooling. An oil cooler makes a much larger impact on oil temperature at the bearing. Large oil capacity and proper oil cooling (not via a radiator) are your best forms of insurance.
 

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Interesting, I always figured if the oil all gets pumped into the heads that the intake would pick up air in the sump and the oil pressure light would flash or the gauge would dip.

I was day dreaming today about a well set up 987.1 Cayman for track days and street - I should of been working :)

I blame the link to Bilt Racing above, have not been there before - anyway

I have seen a few guys DIY rebuild their 996 motors on the forums - sounds like they are a little tricky.

Maybe the information on the how to do it and the tools will become more accessible in the next few years.

But if I did a rebuild with some oiling mods, deep sump, the twin scavenge pumps, beefier oil pump, oil cooler set up maybe mild cams and upgraded con rods and valve train gear, low cost headers and simple light weight exhaust. Typical modest go fast build.

Split control arms, coil overs, sway bars - modest suspension build, OZ wheels

Mild safety gear, seats and harness bar.

If I could build the motor for $10K, $5K for suspension and wheels and $2K for safety gear.

I could have a cool street track car that would be reliable and would roughly hold its value.

Unfortunately I do not have the confidence to build that motor and it would be very expensive.

Any way back to our regularly scheduled programing - plus even with this build still might not have the reliability that I am imagining.

Who else wants to be in my dream!
 
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