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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

I am looking into buying my first Porsche. Over the last months, I have been reading, researching, watching and driving these cars, and now I am hooked.

The great thing is that with Porsche you can basically make it any way you want it. The bad thing is that you can spend years researching and you still won't be sure if the combination of options is right. So, instead of options, I started with what I want the car for:

1. I enjoy driving the car hard, it is not a cruiser for me
2. Having said that, back roads are probably where I find most fun, rather than track
3. Having said that, I might choose to track it once in a while to see how far I can push it
4. I have twin boys age 4, and I want to be able to have them in the car with my wife and me, hence 911 (and not Boxster)
5. I think the open top experience is something special, so a cabrio is also a given (I know it is not the best for track, but then, as I said, I don't plan to track it all the time)
6. I want as much connectedness to the road as possible. I really like how tight the Porsche cars are set up. I love the throttle, chassis and steering response, and I want options to maximize that experience.
7. I favor responsiveness over power, although more power wit comparable responsiveness is always good
8. I love the engine sound
9. I prefer the wide back end on the turbo, C4(S) and GTS cars
10. I like the manual shift, because it is more fun, but the PDK is so fast... I can go either way

So, given that, I have been through many option combinations and arrived at the following:

I am looking for a C4S or a GTS, 997.2 generation. In terms of options, I am looking for the following:
Sports Chrono
Sports Exhaust
PASM

A few questions, given my usage patterns from above:

A. How much difference does the all wheel drive make on the sharpness of steering in the C4S, versus rear wheel drive only (on the GTS or C2S)?
B. I am having a slight preference towards the PDK, because of the speed of shifting. Thoughts?
C. How much difference does the Sports Chrono make on the manual shift car?
D. How much difference does PASM make?

Any other thoughts? Anything else I should consider?

Any input / feedback is much appreciated.

Many Thanks.
 

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It sounds like you've done your research and know what you want. My only comment is on your pdk vs 6MT question. Based on your comments about wanting to feel connected, "not a cruiser" driving on back roads and not tracking it much, then the 6MT is the choice for you. You will get a lot of feedback on this but just based on what you said, a pdk is not for you. The pdk is quicker and faster but if you are not tracking it or driving it in the city, get the 6MT.
 

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I believe PASM was standard on S models of the 997.2 rather than an option. I had a 997.1 with PASM and thought it was a nice to have. Sport chrono with 6MT will change the throttle response- makes it open more for less pedal travel. No change in power output. Sport mode will also change the PASM setting to sport. Although you can separately change PASM back to normal and still have the throttle response quicker. I have heard from a 987.2 owner that SC with the 6MT also differs in the PSM off setting. It reportedly turns the PSM fully off, whereas without SC when PSM is off it comes back on if ABS is engaged. This is just something I was told by someone more knowledgeable than me and I can't verify it or whether it's the same for the 997, so I just it mention it. I can't help on the all wheel drive feel but I would lean toward RWD just for a little lighter weight, and less complexity. FWIW I met a very nice guy in Singapore a few years ago with a GTS cab and it was a beautiful car. Best of luck in your search.
 

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A. There is no difference if you are just driving it around town, the AWD is obviously better in bad weather. I've driven both C4S and C2S on the track back to back. The C4S grips like it's on rails, it gives you more confidence to go faster. The C2S is a bit more tail happy, some say it's more fun, for the non professional driver, it's a bit more scary doesn't give you the same confidence as the C4S.

B. Personal choice, do you like to shift on your own, do you drive in traffic, does every millisecond counts, do you track, etc?

C. You do feel a difference with MT when you press the sports button

D. Standard on S models, PASM works like it should.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thank you all, great help. Looks like both the C4S and the GTS are on the right track for me, depending how tail happy I want it.

On the MT, I have not driven it extensively. I need to rent one for the day and see if my height (6'6") gets in the way of heel/toe downshifting. That is my concern with MT. (not that I am a pro, but it is fun to practice and feels great when you get it right).
 

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1. I enjoy driving the car hard, it is not a cruiser for me

You can't drive a 911 turbo GTS hard on the streets. Its too powerful and you'll be making illegal speeds too fast. Many like the base cayman and boxster as 100% of the power is usable on the streets and its quicker than all the reviewers will have you thinking.

2. Having said that, back roads are probably where I find most fun, rather than track

I think you'll have fun in any of them. People like the boxster because it is more go-cart like and likes to be tossed around. Cayman is more about accuracy and more weighted feel. 911 is a heavy car that is very refined/ rock solid and likes to brute force through roads because the hardware handle whatever you throw at it...some people can find this more boring.

3. Having said that, I might choose to track it once in a while to see how far I can push it


Any car can go on the track and its about how fast you want to be able to push it. A good driver can push a cheap Ford Festa faster than a poor driver in a 911. Most people will learn to drive fast and then gear up or upgrade for the track. Buying a 100% track tool is a bad idea unless you're in that position.

4. I have twin boys age 4, and I want to be able to have them in the car with my wife and me, hence 911 (and not Boxster)


IMO, if you have kids and wants to carry them AND your wife, a 981 or 991 isn't the answer. The backseat of the 911 is worthless and no one buys the car to full fill a requirement of carrying more than 1 person. Hate to be a downer, but you need a full-size sports sedan if you want backseats.

5. I think the open top experience is something special, so a cabrio is also a given (I know it is not the best for track, but then, as I said, I don't plan to track it all the time)

Nothing wrong with open top for a track... actually lots of fun. If you like open top, look at the boxster. An open top 911 is nice, but not the norm for it...plus you'd have to pony up to a lot of money for that unless you are looking at used.

6. I want as much connectedness to the road as possible. I really like how tight the Porsche cars are set up. I love the throttle, chassis and steering response, and I want options to maximize that experience.

All of them have a sports suspension. People think the PASM can be a bit float. The sports suspension will over the best raw connection. The largest wheels will help road connection. If you are looking for neck snapping acceleration, you need a 911 S or Turbo, as everything else is fast, but not 'that' fast.

7. I favor responsiveness over power, although more power wit comparable responsiveness is always good

All are responsive. Its what porsche is known for. People will say older models with hydro steering 'felt' better than the new electronic system.

8. I love the engine sound

Mid engine cars like Cayman and Boxster have more of it. Keep in mind that most of what people hear and think is the engine, is actually the exhaust. Maybe you like that sound when you say 'engine' and would definitely wants a PSE.

9. I prefer the wide back end on the turbo, C4(S) and GTS cars

GTS doesn't make the back end wider on new cars. All have wide rear tires, with the 911 being wider back/ tires.

10. I like the manual shift, because it is more fun, but the PDK
is so fast... I can go either way

Its preference on the streets.. PDK will beat a manual to 60, but manual offers a great connection on the track. You can manually shift PDK 100% of the time and get the same result without the feel of the third pedal. All things equal, I think PDK paddle shifting will increase lap times.
 

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I see everybody here already provided very useful tips for you addressing your listed points. I'd add this:

Try to test drive different variants of the 911. Take your kids and wife with you to test how they fit. You can check how comfortable for the 4 you by sitting in a 991 at the showroom. Check if any member here lives in your area who may take you for a drive.

There are many variants of the 911. They may seem similar but each comes with its character. You almost narrowed your search down. If you'll buy a used one, you'll be more limited with what's available for sale in terms of options than what you actually want. If you'll buy it new, the budget is the limit.

Looking forward to welcome you officially to our 991 club ;)

Keep us posted.
 

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9perisic,

minthral started to touch on it re your requirement to be able to have your wife and 4 year old twins in the car. This feels like a fundamental requirement that is really driving your decision on Porsche platform. One thing to consider is how quickly the twins will grow. I don't know how long you plan on keeping the Porsche, but in just a few years they won't really fit in the back. It's just amazing how quickly they get BIG. :)

Best of luck in the hunt.

Cheers,
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Just when I thought I knew what I want... ?
I will take the family for the test run. That will be part of the process. But, let's assume kids don't fit, and / or they outgrow the investment fast. That brings the Boxster into picture. 981 looks great but more expensive. 987 is cheaper. Which one offers more connectedness to the road?
 

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I wasn’t going to respond to this thread because I am not all that knowledgeable about 997.2 cars. But I see things not correct below so here are some comments or corrections. I understand much in here is "opinion" but unless one lives with a 911, I don’t understand how one can answer.

You can't drive a 911 turbo GTS hard on the streets.
There is no such thing as a 911 Turbo GTS.

Assuming you mean a 997TT or 997GTS, you can't drive ANY Porsche on the street without easily hitting illegal speeds. Do NOT let such comments dissuade the OP. You can't drive a 30 year old Carrera 3.2 hard on the street. So what? Since when has that dissuaded anyone from buying any Porsche?

If that were the norm, no one would buy a TTS. And yet they sell many.

911 is a heavy car
At about 150 lbs more of sprung weight, compared to a CS, you will never feel the difference. With the wife, and two small children, and maybe stuff in the frunk, you will NEVER feel the 150 lb difference. You're not talking unsprung weight here. And at 408 HP, a GTS has far more power you will actually feel in the seat than any Boxster.

The backseat of the 911 is worthless and no one buys the car to full fill a requirement of carrying more than 1 person.
Nonsense. It’s the word's best and biggest glove box. My wife easily fits in the rear and the current 911 rear seats are bigger than the air cooled cars. (No, not my kid or car).


Now I will grant that a 4 year old will grow but that is a personal decision on how long to keep the car.

Many people with young families buy a 911 SPECIFICALLY for the rear seats. Read the 911 forums.

you'd have to pony up to a lot of money for that unless you are looking at used.
The OP said "I am looking for a C4S or a GTS, 997.2 generation"

Every 997.2 being sold is used.

All of them have a sports suspension. People think the PASM can be a bit float. The sports suspension will over the best raw connection. The largest wheels will help road connection. If you are looking for neck snapping acceleration, you need a 911 S or Turbo, as everything else is fast, but not 'that' fast.
1. Base Carreras do not have a sports suspension. PASM is not the sport suspension. SPASM is the sport suspension. I’m sure on the 997 GTS SPASM was optional.

2. Once again I am looking for a C4S or a GTS,

A C4S is a 911S. A 997GTS has MORE power than a 997S or C4S. Given the constraints of the OP, there are no other choices.

Mid engine cars like Cayman and Boxster have more of it.
[engine sound] No, the Cayman and Boxster, have LESS of it. Every 997.2 C4S or GTS will have a bigger engine than any Cayman or Boxster resulting in MORE engine noise. Perhaps you are referring to it being closer to the ear, with is a perception, not reality. Moving from a 997 to 991 changes all that as the sound symposer makes it just as noisy as my Cayman, and those are engine induction sounds, NOT muffler sounds.

GTS doesn't make the back end wider on new cars. All have wide rear tires, with the 911 being wider back/ tires.
Not true. The GTS is wider. The 997S is 71.3” and GTS 72.9”.

The 911 being wider back/tires? What does that mean? The only thing being discussed is the 997 GTS or C4S.

For the OP, I wasn’t going to speak to any of this but here is some info.

Listen to Ynot, he has a 997.1 C4S. A 997GTS, particularly the Cabrio, is a beautiful car. Maybe what you really want is a GTS4S or GTS 4S Cabrio, like this in the 991 cars 911 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet - All 911 Models - All Porsche Models - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

There are no bad choices. The rear seat is very useful for throwing stuff in the back, like at the grocery store. For two small children, it’s fine. For two teenagers, not so fine.

The sports suspension is called, amazingly enough, Sport PASM. It’s even lower than PASM. Be sure you test drive these cars with the family in them. A SPASM car on sport is stiff, particularly for the passengers. It’s also very low. If you are used to cushy rides, don’t get SPASM.

If you get the GTS, understand what you are getting into if it has Center Lock wheels. Google it. Special tools, expensive tools, major pain (although one member here likes it). Most hate it and specifically wish they did not get it forced on them on GT3s. Also understand the rear tires are probably 305s on both GTS and 4S. Marginally more money than the standard 295s on the C2S.

Sports Chrono, go for it. Better throttle response, dynamic engine mounts

If I missed anything, ask a specific question and if it relates to a 991, I can answer.

Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
These are very good clarifications, thanks chows4us. I think it matches my initial understanding.

Any reason I should go for the GTS and not for the C4S with SC and SE? When it comes to power, as I understand, it is a power kit you can buy from Porsche as an add on for the C4S as well?

Many thanks, to all who replied.
 

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Just to comment on the "power kit"- that was an option (x51) on the 997s but it was very pricey- like $15k (I can't recall exactly). Not really practical to retrofit IMO- significant engine changes. Correction- the kit is available from suncoast for 997.1 for $13.4k includes cams, heads. Still would be quite a bit of cost to install (unless you're a serious DIYer). That said a C4S is pretty fast.
 

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The usefulness of the rear seats in the 997.2 is dependent on how tall you are, and the size of the rear seat occupants. At 5"6, there is enough room behind my seat (either the GT2 Sport Bucket or the Sport Seat) for a average sized person...assuming they are not very wide at the hips. In a previous 911 TT my son had no complaints riding in the back when he was 12 or 13 years old, but he was slimy built.

Although our 997.2 GTS is a bit heavier than our 987.2 Cayman S, the GTS has 88 additional horsepower as well as more torque. It feels faster because it is, but it also feels lighter to me in many driving situations as the steering is less weighted than in the CS, especially when heavy on the throttle coming out of corners.

Unless ss you plan on driving the 911 GTS in the winter, I would avoid the extra weight and complexity of AWD. This is the second winter I have used my GTS as a DD, and can assure you that if you are experienced and confident driving high-performance RWD vehicles in winter, the GTS is entirely usable no matter what the road conditions.

Although the OP has stated he likes the idea of GTS Cabriolet, it is a heavier car and a different driving experience than a coupe...especially if you are comparing an AWD Cab to a RWD coupe. If possible, drive both back-to-back before deciding.

As as for the Centrelock wheels on the GTS, beware that if you plan on changing wheels yourself (or want the ability to remove a wheel on the car while on a road trip rather than flatbed the car to the nearest Porsche dealer or indie with the tools and knowhow to change a wheel) you are going to need $1000 worth of tools. They are VERY nice tools though :)
 

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These are very good clarifications, thanks chows4us. I think it matches my initial understanding.

Any reason I should go for the GTS and not for the C4S with SC and SE? When it comes to power, as I understand, it is a power kit you can buy from Porsche as an add on for the C4S as well?

Many thanks, to all who replied.

You can get a GTS 4 or a C4S. Its not one or the other. In other words, the GTS comes in many flavors, as 2WD or 4WD, Coupe or Cabriolet.

The powerkit add 25HP? in a 997. 30HP in a 991. It comes standard on the GTS models and is the X50 or X51 option in the 911 cars. As zedcat says, its serious money ~18K. It makes power the old fashioned way, polished heads. That all said, you will NEVER feel it on the street. At least on the 991, it makes all the power at 6600+. How often are you driving at 7K? Now if you were racing or track days, yes, you can feel it but will pay dearly for it.

I would always get SC.

PSE is a personal decision. You can retrofit it if you want or buy an aftermarket exhaust. PSE, in theory, does NOT make any power. An aftermarket exhaust might make a bit. It's not all that much money to retrofit PSE.

Be cautious about the 997GTS in regards to Center Lock wheels. Many people hate them. Watch this

 

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...

Although the OP has stated he likes the idea of GTS Cabriolet, it is a heavier car and a different driving experience than a coupe...especially if you are comparing an AWD Cab to a RWD coupe.
This is also a good point. The 911 Cabrios are always heavier, and AWD more so. All performance times are slower. Some people like that experience, some don't.

Some people will buy a totally stripped coupe, no sunroof, smallest wheels, less unsprung weight, lightest seats. Others want all the luxury features.
 

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For CL tools I got the precision instruments torque wrench and breaker for about $420. Already had a jack and the wife to stand on the brake!
 

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For CL tools I got the precision instruments torque wrench and breaker for about $420. Already had a jack and the wife to stand on the brake!
My $1000 cost was Canadian...and included the Porsche collapsible breaker bar, as well at the three-piece Precision instruments torque wrench. Both the torque wrench and the breaker bar fit nicely in the frunk with lots of room left for luggage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Oh that is hilarious. Just watched the worlds most complicated wheel change. Is do see your point, indeed! Thanks, yet again.
 
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