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I cant ever recall Camaros and Mustangs making "10 Best" lists and "10 Best Drives" and "10 Most Thrilling Drives of the Year" lists.
You need to read more recent magazines. That was true years ago, but the American cars are back with a vengeance. The Z06 Corvette has been in the top 10 for a long time now (and is a closer price comparo to Porsches), and now the Boss 302 is right on the heels of the Cayman :

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1109_2011_motor_trend_best_drivers_car/viewall.html
 

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The reason for the price difference between a mustang/camaro and a Porsche, even an entry level Porsche, is exclusivity. Unlike those cars, in which every pimpled faced high school kid, along with their moms, drive, you do not see a 1/4 as many P cars on the road. So although "performance" (I use this lightly and relatively speaking since the problem here seems to be HP and straight line) might be less on the more expensive P car, the price is there because of exclusivity (and I do not personally believe performance is less either which I am getting to). As far as these other manufacturers making "better" engines, I think that is absolutely ridiculous. Forget about price for a second and look at straight up engineering vs engineering.

Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca Edition (designed to run as fast as possible at LS!)
444 HP, 380 Lb ft
Laguna Seca Lap Time: 1:41.1
Nurburgring: (Ford refuses to bring it there)
0-60: 4.0s
1/4: 12.4 @ 115mph

Porsche Cayman R
330 HP, 273 lb ft
Laguna Seca: 1:41.6
Nurburgring: (Not sure if theyve ran it there yet? please post if there are #s)
0-60: 4.2s
1/4: 12.7 @ 111mph

So it takes two more cylinders, 114 more horsepower and 107 more lb ft of torque to run a half second quicker at LS (in which the Mustang was BUILT FOR!!!), 2 tenths to 60, 3 tenths through the quarter (and its not like its pulling much because there traps speeds are close)! This is a better engine? Are you kidding me, imagine any P car with that kind of power? Oh wait, there are P cars with that power, lets take a look?

Porsche GT3 RS 3.8
450 HP, 317 lb ft
Laguna Seca: 1:36.8
Nurburgring: 7:33
0-60: 3.5s
1/4: 11.8 @ 121 mph

The Porsche, with the same power (less torque may I add), ran 5 seconds faster (an eternity on a small course like LS) than a car that was specifically built to pump out lap times at that facility!

So, lets take a look at the camaro ZL1 now since everyone is so impressed with its 7:40 Ring time.

Some Stats:
Chevy Camaro ZL1: 580 HP, 556 lb ft torque
Similar cars with the same power:
Porsche 991 Carrera S: 400 HP, 325 lb ft
Porsche GT3 RS 4.0: 500 HP, 339 lb ft torque
Porsche GT2RS: 620 HP, 516 lb ft

Ring: ZL1: 7:40
991 Carrera S: 7:40 (with 180 less horsepower!!!)
GT3RS 4.0: 7:27 (80 less horsepower, 207 less lb ft)
GT2RS: 7:18 (Closest to the ZL1s power and torque)

So whats the argument here? Porsche with less power continues to outshine these big motor, big hp, american cars. I would HARDLY say these cars are nipping on porsches heels. By the way, there is NO camaro or mustang that will run with Porsches $150,000 to 220,000 Price range of models, not in a straight line, not on the track).

Also, the majority of the porsche models are limited production cars. Want a Boss 302, lets go to ford we'll have one in a week. Want a zl1, lets go to chevy and order one. Want a 3.8 GT3RS, have fun finding one new. Want a 4.0? not happening. Want a GT2RS? Too bad theyre all sold. And finally, lets look at some straight line #s...

Ford Mustang Boss 302 LS Boxster Spyder (6 MT) 991 C2S
Price: $48,000 $61,200 $96,400
HP: 444 320 400
0-60: 4.1s 4.3s 3.5s
0-100: 9.1s 10.4s 8.4s
1/4 mile: 12.3 @117 12.7 @ 110 11.8 @ 118.4
0-120: 13s 15.5s 12.1s

The Boxster Spyder (with a manual no pdk and launch control) is going to lap the same if not outlap the 302 and the 911 will humiliate it. I'm sorry, you cannot say this is a better engine when a car with 50-150 more horsepower barely outruns (and gets passed quite easily by cars with similar powerband #s) is impressive. So I would say Porsche is doing just fine with their cars, and their cars, for the power, perform extremely well. We all want more power in our mid engine cars because they are such good cars, but remember there is a business side to this too.

And I know people are going to cry price price price on this, but I hate to break it to you, most people shopping a boss 302 arent cross shopping a 911, probably not even a cayman. And those that are, probably can buy both. I have a few friends who have both GT3's and Boxster Spyders or Cayman Rs, I wonder why they didnt save out and buy a boss 302? I dont think us P car owners have anything to worry about, remember, they werent built to drag. Learn how to drive your P car well and you will pass some of these high HP muscle cars on the track anyway, I'm sure there are quite a few members here who will attest (and have video) of that. Sorry this was so long, but just my 2 cents on it.
 

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Like many in this forum, I love my Porsche and there is no other brand I'd rather own. But, I am glad that finally USA is putting some mean machines back into the streets. The last gen Corvette and Mustang are machines that should make us proud that bear the "Made in the USA" stamp.
 

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>>>but the American cars are back with a vengeance.

I recently purchased a Ford Focus Titanium and am amazed at what Ford had done. I'm on the list, hopefully for one of the first, Focus ST models that hit the shores.

I'm sure my comments aren't germane but I've had a fascination with Porsche since they hired my former firm to do some contract engineering. The 911 didn't do it for me, but when the Cayman was released I was stunned, still am, at the styling and the way it approaches challenges. It's perhaps one of the most beautiful and well balanced cars I've ever seen.

At present my situation makes it tough to justify owning extra (I used to have 5) cars. A combination of lack of garage and having to list "Porsche" on a corporate expense report for a large publicly held corporation, and I'd also toss some really iffy local dealers in the mix, rule out a Cayman.

But we are currently designing the retirement home in the sunny Southwest and the garage and lifts are already on the plans.

:)

The coolest thing about the Caymans, like the Buells and Ducatis, are the fun and fascinating folks, sharing a common passion, that congregate.
 

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I think the new NSX could offer some competition.
Acura NSX Concept Photos | Acura NSX Concept Pictures - Yahoo! Autos


I may be interested in one, obviously depending on all the final specs, performance, appearance, etc.

The side profile looks great.... very lamborghini like.

The front & rear are ok, but will probably be revised in the next 3 years.

If its anything like its earlier version at the time it was introduced, I will heavily consider it, instead of a 981 S/R.
 

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Exclusivity is a moot point. If the car was a better value (cheaper) this would fail to be true.

Porsche wants to sell quite a few cars in the coming years, so I expect there will be a serious increase in hp when they introduce their more affordable models.
 

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Six-

I really appreciate the response. You have so many good points. The car is a blast and is great currently...you are spot on there. But I want it better...from the factory. Sure I can spend a bunch on it aftermarket, but as a matter of pride Porsche should try its best to a) keep up with competitors or b) annihilate competitors.

I guess I still have some machismo still in me and I want to have some braggin rights.

I don't want to have this future conversation...

Wow neat car! What is it?

It's a Porsche.

Wow it looks fast.

Yes it is kind of.

Is it faster than a Mustang?

Used to be.

Is it faster than a Camaro?

Used to be.

Is it faster than an Accord?

Almost.

Why did you buy it?

Well it has a really good interior...:hilarious:

Well, you CAN buy a Porsche Turbo and smoke these other cars in a straight line. AWD and gobs of power. Or you can spend big bucks on a big-boy Porsche. Lap times are even better than HP for bragging.

Or you can just steer the above conversation this way.

Nice car!

Thanks, I really like it too. It's a Cayman S.

Wow, it looks fast.

It corners GREAT. The engine is in the middle. Has two trunks. It is not average.

Is it faster than a Mustang?

Most of em.

Is it faster than a Camaro?

Most of em.

Is it faster than an Accord?

Definitely.

Why did you buy it?

Just look at it! It drives better than it looks!

Just what, pray tell, is wrong with this? Do I really need 600 HP to be happy? Do I need to get 8 mpg on the highway? Do I need to melt a full set of tires at every track weekend? Do I enjoy lugging 4200 lbs of car around?

If the answer is "yes", then you should buy one of those pony cars. They have really developed into some nice machines, finally. I would have no problem buying one of those new top of the line Mustangs. I think they're great cars.

Since when has the standard Porsche been fastest? In the 60's, Mustangs and Camaros had V-8s in them while Porsches had just got a 2 liter boxer six motor...up from a 4!!! Nothing made in the US even had a 4 cylinder engine in it at that time. Porsches have ALWAYS been cool and people who don't own them have always wondered just what is so cool about them. If you drive one, you'll either like it or you won't.

I bought a 3 year old CS in '09. The price was comparable to a decent mini-van or a nice new sedan, $38K. To me, this used car was as good as a new mini-van or new small sedan, for what I want it for. I don't want it to win HP races or bragging rights. I want to ENJOY it. I do! The End.

:cheers:
 

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I own a 2007 Cayman S and today had the opportunity to drive a 2008 Cayman 2.7. It reinforced for me what driving these cars is all about. Sure, there are even SUVs out there that will smoke the little 2.7 in a straightline and the tall 17" tires will not offer killer cornering grip either. But, what WAS appealing was the willingness and playfulness of the little engine that I could exercise without blowing past the speed limit in a matter of seconds, the precise steering, handling, sense of quality, and precision that came through at ANY speed. I always thought big power would be great, and while I did drive a 991 Carrera S at the same time as the 2.7, it was not the power that really got my attention (it IS fast), but the fact that it was a very well built, exceptional performing car in every respect.

Like another poster said, you want frightening acceleration, buy a sport bike. But it may not be that much fun. I had one and that thing made the Cayman S seem positively anemic and would destroy the 991 Carrera S. But, it was TOO fast, not so much fun. Japanese 1 liter sport bikes exceed 100 mph in 1st gear. Where are you going to experience a blast through the gears, or even one gear? The Cayman 2.7 is just fun, and would have gotten one in an instant if I had not found such a good deal on the S.

I guess I would ask in normal driving, which most of us do, which is more FUN? A Porsche 991 Turbo driving around with a trip computer average speed of 28 mph (me) or a Cayman 2.7 that I can row the gearbox in without too much police attention?

Phil
 

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How about because it is a Porsche. I gotta still think in this day in age you pull up in a Porsche it'll still get more attention than a mustang, camaro or vette. For god sake there's one on every corner just about. Before I bought mine. I sat in a vette and couldn't believe the shitty quality. To me, it reminded me of the cavalier I grew up in just with a huge v8 under the hood and vette badges. The quality is horrible. Sorry this got me worked up a bit. Can't see how they'd even be compared.
 

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I sat in a C6 Corvette and did not bother even test driving. Felt huge and quality of materials was unimpressive. - phil
 

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I had a Mustang in High School... a lot of my classmates had Mustangs, they were the most popular sports car in the senior parking lot, followed by Camaros.

At our 20 year reunion, it was cool to see all my car friends driving Vettes or special edition Mustangs. I was the only one who had taken a different path over the years (944, TR6, MR2, 308, 987)... handling over HP, European over American engineering, but I was never a go-along-with-the-crowd type of guy. And I'm not a brand name type either, never interested in Porsche just because it was a status brand.

I always enjoy hearing from others about how they broke away from the Vette/Mustang camp and put other factors above the cheap, big HP numbers, that American Manufacturers are famous for.
 

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I smiled as I read this thread. I was thinking about the limited amount of time I have spent on tracks and at AX events and the incredible fun I have had in my Cayman S. And I think about the time I did hot laps with a professional driver in a GT3 at Nurburg. And the times when very very good drivers have driven my CS on track with me as a passenger. The times spent in both the GT3 and my CS with very skilled drivers at the wheel really showed me that it is NOT the car that holds me back it is me. So we can talk about horse power and torque and weight and suspension all we want, but, except for the very special few, the real limit on our cars is us. I tell myself... Enjoy your car, learn your car, love your car, your Cayman will do anything you ask of it. After I repeat that mantra my car jealousy for more, bigger, better usually goes away. That is until i get a glimpse of the Carrerra GT that sometimes drives around town. :)
 

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I smiled as I read this thread. I was thinking about the limited amount of time I have spent on tracks and at AX events and the incredible fun I have had in my Cayman S. And I think about the time I did hot laps with a professional driver in a GT3 at Nurburg. And the times when very very good drivers have driven my CS on track with me as a passenger. The times spent in both the GT3 and my CS with very skilled drivers at the wheel really showed me that it is NOT the car that holds me back it is me. So we can talk about horse power and torque and weight and suspension all we want, but, except for the very special few, the real limit on our cars is us. I tell myself... Enjoy your car, learn your car, love your car, your Cayman will do anything you ask of it. After I repeat that mantra my car jealousy for more, bigger, better usually goes away. That is until i get a glimpse of the Carrerra GT that sometimes drives around town. :)

AZK:

Absolutely agree with your comments. I know Putnam Park Road Course like the back of my hand. I'm an instructor there now and then. Have put thousands of laps on that track. There will always be someone faster, even in my own car. I can drive fast enough to provide a good kick in the pants for myself and a passenger. Great fun.

What I teach isn't the 10/10 ths secrets of the masters, I teach basic principals, how they are properly applied and, most important, exactly what to do if you screw up. The advanced stuff is too much information for the guys I like to teach. The really fast guys can learn knowledge specific to that track with me but some of them go faster than I'm willing to right out of the box, so I keep my trap shut.

Turn in too early? Run over that inside apex...a lot, if necessary, to give yourself more room in your turning arc so you don't run out of track at the end of the corner.
I show EVERYONE that one because I feel safer knowing that they know it. You you have to understand what "early" actually means in order to understand when to do this. When you run over the inside, there's no weight on the inside wheels, so it doesn't hurt the car.

PLAN AHEAD, LOOK AHEAD. You can't do much about the real estate 10 feet in front of the car at 80+mph, but you might be able to steer better if your eyes and mind are on the corner exit as you enter the corner.

I got a million of em, but if you know that early apex one and how to recognize when you need to use it, you will have a lot more confidence on track.

That whole apex thing is confusing to new tracksters and it looks a lot like geometry class when it's being explained. You have to get some speed going, then, eventually, you "get it". Hopefully, if you paid attention, you "get it" the safe way and not the off the track way.

Until the theory gels in your head, you just muddle through. It takes a while and then the bell rings.

My days of timed laps and club racing ambitions are gone. I just like to go out and throw the car around and feel what it can do. I drive hard but haven't done a timed lap in 15 years. Faster than most? That means my car's working right. Fast as I can go? That means I'm working right.

Lurid drifting and sliding is fun but it's not the fast way around. Fast is ultra smooth and involves slip angles and car rotation, but very subtle movements usually get it done better and faster on a well sorted car. Think ALMS or F1, not car chases in movies. I love films where you hear tires screeching on grass or gravel. :rolleyes:
 

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This is a fun thread to read. I agree the competition for Porsche is indeed getting better. Yesterday, this was revealed at the NY auto show:

SRT Viper

It has 640 normally aspirated horsepower and 600 pound-feet of torque from a front/mid-mounted 8.4-liter V10. It has a (MUCH) better interior than previous models and is fitted with stability and traction control. Two-mode active suspension is optional. Manual transmission only so no launch control.

No price yet but this car is supposed to start around $95,000. I love my CS but if I shop for a new sports car does this deserve a look? I think it might.
 

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Ok this is kind of upsetting... http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/electric-car-prototype-increases-range-218-miles-203207200.html

A presumably cheap electric car will do 0-60mph in 5.4s, while the new Boxster will only do it in 5.5s. WOW.

Ok, I know this is apples & oranges, and that car is not a sports car, can not handle a track, etc. And would not be fun to drive, not turn heads, at least not in a good way.

But one of the most key ingredients to a "fast" car is acceleration. (hp/weight) Its what makes a car feel fast, those G's pushing your head back in to the seat. Being able to bury the pedal and launch.

I could see in several years, there being more Tesla like electric sports cars that will be very fast AND capable on the track.
 

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Vipers have terrible handling. All that power will never be able to hook and handle on the street it track.
I was never implying that the Viper is a daily driver so my apologies if I left that impression.

This thread seems to be more focused on the value of more speed and torque in a weekend or track oriented vehicle. I also will make no claims on the Viper's handling but I do think the addition of stability and traction control (plus adjustable damping) implies some further consideration of handling in the new vehicle.

In a thread entitled "Can the Cayman Keep up?" I think the new Viper provides evidence of increasing competition from a previously unlikely (muscle car) source.
 

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There is nothing in the market ,at this time, that provides the mid engine driving experience, in a confortable sportscar at less than 100k other than the Boxster and Cayman. The Lotus Evora , maybe not as confortable and much more expensive.

Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter #120
Vipers have terrible handling. All that power will never be able to hook and handle on the street it track.
I am so excited to comment on this! I have a new neighbor with a love for cars...while I just have my beloved CS.

Anywho I followed him home the other day and we got spirited. He obviously had the horsepower advantage, but I could have driven through him on every corner.

The true purpose of this thread is to put a little Scottish into Porsche. Like Scotty says in Star Trek "I'm giving her all she's got!" This should be Porsches attitude.
 
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