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A car is so much more the brute force and power. Dont get me wrong there is nothing like the kick in the back from massive power but it's not the be all and end all to owning a car. The way a car performs with the way it turns in stops and powers out of a corner is so much more important then flooring a car down a straight.

I can speak with some experience having sold a 575bhp per tone car to by my Cayman with aprox 230bhp per tone. Yes its much slower but just as enjoyable to drive.
 

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Everybody keeps trying to make these brute force big hp, etc. comparisons. Get with the current times. I think thats the problem. Porsche engineers are living in the past too, and not realizing they're being passed up.

Yeah, the Camaro ZL1 makes 580hp, but it also turned in a 7:41 @ Nuhrihbring lap time. FAST ON A TRACK IS FAST ON A TRACK.

We're not talking about track vs. 1/4 mile. I'm talking about THE benchmark track for the world.
 

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The Ring, could be argued, is a power circuit. Yes it has a lot of corners but big power does seem to destroy competent cars at the Ring, so which is better?. Whenever i have been to the Ring i never see many Lotus Elise or Exige running about and yet they are fantastic cars. So while i understand fast on track is fast on track, the Ring isn't always the bench mark that everything can or should be measured by IMO.

Something i noticed with my car compared to a friends M3, he has more power and a quicker 0-60 on paper but mine feels faster. Looking at the power/torque delivery the Cayman has a fatter torque curve across more of the rev range I believe. Numbers on paper mean very little it seems...
 

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The problem with the ring is that there are several very fast bits, the main one being long enough to hit 200+ if you've got a car capable of doing that. There are no race tracks in the world that are like it (LeMans has chicanes to stop that now). You can make a scary amount of time up on those straights if you've got the bottle and the power.

I've mentioned it in other threads about the ring. It's a pointless benchmark. Tuning a car to be fast around the ring makes it fast around one track in Germany. That's it. I really wish there wasn't so much emphasis on ring times these days as I truly believe it's ruining cars.
 

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The problem with the ring is that there are several very fast bits, the main one being long enough to hit 200+ if you've got a car capable of doing that. There are no race tracks in the world that are like it (LeMans has chicanes to stop that now). You can make a scary amount of time up on those straights if you've got the bottle and the power.

I've mentioned it in other threads about the ring. It's a pointless benchmark. Tuning a car to be fast around the ring makes it fast around one track in Germany. That's it. I really wish there wasn't so much emphasis on ring times these days as I truly believe it's ruining cars.

I have to agree.
 

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Have you driven these cars recently? Outside of the Z06, they are not that fun to drive. I bought my Cayman and Boxster Spyder because they were a hoot to drive, not because they were faster...I knew that my Cayman base was a dog in comparison to almost any other sports car in its price range...did I care? No, the smile it put on my face every time I drove it was worth more than all the lap times and drag times around. I am willing to pay a premium for that smile. I am pretty sure that adding more HP to the Cayman will provide a thrill, but also make the car a little hotter to handle, and I ( and I guess Porsche ) don't see that as a real value add.
If you think those are better cars or bang for the buck, then go ahead and get one and enjoy, our formula for what bang for the buck obviously differ!


I think those statements are dated.

Yes that applies to the OLD muscle cars vs. the OLD Porsche's of yesteryear.

However, the new breed of American muscle has been refined for the track too. All of them with their optional track packs are still comparably "cheap" to a 911 + track pack (GT3).

Corvette Z06 + Z07 track pack
Mustang GT500 + SVT trackpack
Camaro ZL1 + track pack
Boss 302 + Laguna Seca edition (or regular Boss 302)

All of them now actually have great track times too.

The best example is the 2013 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 - 7:41 @ Nurhurbring

I'm thinking with all of the specs on paper that the new GT500 SHOULD be able to beat the Camaro ZL1's time: 2013 Shelby GT500 caught testing at the Nürburgring

Ford has refined the GT500 THREE times in 4 years and added the Boss 302, they're serious about performance!

Porsche's engineers were first to implement a lot of race technologies in to production street cars, BUT Ford, Chevy, Nissan are coming to the game now the past few years.

American muscle cars have been making larger changes (large bumps in horsepower) and at a faster pace (adding new technologies like e-magnetic shocks, traction/launch control) so they're not "dumb" blunt instruments anymore.

And they're all getting similar MPG as Porsches so the "gas guzzler" does not really apply?
300+hp range = Cayman S vs Mustang V6 both 20/27 MPG range
400+hp range = 911S vs Mustang GT/Boss 302 both 18/25 MPG range

Look at how much Corvettes have changed... changing frame & moving the transmission to the rear balanced the car in the 6th generation, supposedly the next (7th) generation car is going to be more "Ferrari/Lambo like, with smaller displacement & higher reving.

All of that said, I still prefer 2 things about Porsche (specifically Cayman)
1. Styling - the Cayman is IMO the best looking car for under $150k, over $150k I can find some competition
2. Exclusitivity - Mustangs/Camaros & Corvettes are a dime/dozen comparitively in sales volume, which translates to how many you see on the street.

However, I think Porsche will need a mid-engine car to be its flagship in a few years. You can't make something balanced that is inherently not (911). Unless they actually move the engine, or more likley make the gas engine smaller and add electric motors up front.

I think the 918 Spyder (& derivatives) from top & Cayman/Boxster from bottom, may eventually squeeze the 911 out the middle. At least for intelligent buyers!!

In hindsight what they really should have done was to JUST call the Cayman a 911.... name it Carrera 2 (for 2 seater), and the old 911, Carrera 4 (for 4 seater)!! There would have been none of this preserving the dinosaur for namesake.

Then they could have put a 3.8L / GT3 engine in the Cayman with out the glass ceiling and sold 380hp-450hp versions of them like hotcakes. IMO

Needed Cayman line up:
Cayman - 270hp
Cayman S 330hp
Cayman GT3 400+hp (or "GTS" or "R" - lighter more track oriented version)
 

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The problem with the ring is that there are several very fast bits, the main one being long enough to hit 200+ if you've got a car capable of doing that. There are no race tracks in the world that are like it (LeMans has chicanes to stop that now). You can make a scary amount of time up on those straights if you've got the bottle and the power.

I've mentioned it in other threads about the ring. It's a pointless benchmark. Tuning a car to be fast around the ring makes it fast around one track in Germany. That's it. I really wish there wasn't so much emphasis on ring times these days as I truly believe it's ruining cars.
You and James May both! :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk which means I'm probably traveling at the moment so please excuse any brief or hurried replies, spelling errors, etc. Etc.
 

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Have you driven these cars recently? Outside of the Z06, they are not that fun to drive. I bought my Cayman and Boxster Spyder because they were a hoot to drive, not because they were faster...I knew that my Cayman base was a dog in comparison to almost any other sports car in its price range...did I care? No, the smile it put on my face every time I drove it was worth more than all the lap times and drag times around. I am willing to pay a premium for that smile. I am pretty sure that adding more HP to the Cayman will provide a thrill, but also make the car a little hotter to handle, and I ( and I guess Porsche ) don't see that as a real value add.
If you think those are better cars or bang for the buck, then go ahead and get one and enjoy, our formula for what bang for the buck obviously differ!
No I own a Cayman S. I just wish they would give us the option of a GT3/GTS or Turbo version of the Cayman like they offer in the Cayenne, Panarema & 911. The 911 GT3 (RWD) is too much power for most drivers to handle but they still make it, and they even allow you to turn off the PSM / TC. So for the people who know how or want to learn how to use that power on a track, etc.. can.
 

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The problem with the ring is that there are several very fast bits, the main one being long enough to hit 200+ if you've got a car capable of doing that. There are no race tracks in the world that are like it (LeMans has chicanes to stop that now). You can make a scary amount of time up on those straights if you've got the bottle and the power.

I've mentioned it in other threads about the ring. It's a pointless benchmark. Tuning a car to be fast around the ring makes it fast around one track in Germany. That's it. I really wish there wasn't so much emphasis on ring times these days as I truly believe it's ruining cars.
"The Ring" is just a good apples to apples benchmark is it "perfect" probably not. But its a place with a good history so you can look back at A LOT of other cars that have run on it. I'm sure you could find a smaller more curvy track and say, look the Mini Cooper S can beat X, Y, Z cars.

We're talking about highend sports cars, not go karts so it should have some good straights that you can hit 170+. Does it necessarily translate to which car is the most fun, NO. It does tell you which cars are FAST.

I'd love it if the auto industry picked like 3-4 tracks and ran all of their cars on them. What's your wish list? Laguna Seca, Barber, Road Atlanta?
 

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No I own a Cayman S. I just wish they would give us the option of a GT3/GTS or Turbo version of the Cayman like they offer in the Cayenne, Panarema & 911. The 911 GT3 (RWD) is too much power for most drivers to handle but they still make it, and they even allow you to turn off the PSM / TC. So for the people who know how or want to learn how to use that power on a track, etc.. can.
I'm with you C-Rizzle! Make several variants, like the other cars in the Porsche lineup, and let the individual decide based on preference.

I personally would love a little more kick in the seat in my beautiful CS.

I think the new Jag is looking around 380 hp. They have their sights on upending the 981.
 

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I'd love it if the auto industry picked like 3-4 tracks and ran all of their cars on them. What's your wish list? Laguna Seca, Barber, Road Atlanta?
Spa (high speed) - greatest circuit in the world (ok I suspect Suzuka is up there with it but I've not driven it). Just the most flowing and damned enjoyable track to drive on I've ever been too. To be quick here you need a car that maintain high speeds through a variety of corners. Then there's the straight for the power machines to get up some speed. Which ironically is where I have a bit of a rest on a lap. Essentially slicks and wings rule this place. If you have a downforce car, nothing will get close to you. In the road car class Pork is in it's element here as it can flex it's muscles where things like Elises can't.

Donington Park (medium speed) - I actually haven't been in ages. But it's a stonking med speed track. Lots of gradient, actually has a little in common with Spa in that respect (just much smaller) with the amount of compression you get through the Craner Curves (sort of a upside down EauRouge). Probably the best all-rounder of a track. Anything driven well is quick here.

Angelsey Coastal layout (low speed) - Newest (proper) circuit in the UK. The tarmac and surface is exceptional. The track is twisty, in this layout there's not really even a straight in it. Here weight is everything and it really suits stuff like Caterhams. The Coastal Layout has a mini Corkscrew in it, much fun.

I'd maybe also throw Croft in there too. Mainly because the surface is buggered (I'd love them to resurface it as it's a pain in the arse, quite litterally, in a car with 800lb springs on it!). As it is, if your suspension can't deal with bumps here, you'll be in bother. In contrast to all the above circuts there's no gradient here (converted airfield), but it's got a good variety speed/twisty-wise, and it's less than perfect surface would mean the super hard suspension boys will struggle.

All of the above though is moot. The problem with tuning a car to work well on the track is that it will compromise it on the road (that works both ways). It's finding the happy balance between track and road performance that's what you want. I've been there and done that by totally ruining a Westfield by turning it essentially into a race car. I actually took it off the road as it was too fast, loud (mainly transmission) and uncomfortable to tolerate.

Which is my point when it comes to N'burg track times becoming so important. Tune a car to make a headline time on the ring and it's going to compromise it on the road. Too much importance is put on lap times for cars that are primarily road cars.

To be honest, too much importance is put on all the figures and stats which mean little in the real world of what you do in your car on a daily basis.
 

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Which is my point when it comes to N'burg track times becoming so important. Tune a car to make a headline time on the ring and it's going to compromise it on the road. Too much importance is put on lap times for cars that are primarily road cars.

To be honest, too much importance is put on all the figures and stats which mean little in the real world of what you do in your car on a daily basis.
You'd think, but I've heard many people say that their Cayman R/Spyder's (the most track tuned 987s yet) were better daily drivers suspension wise than their standard 987 S's or even their PASM equipped 987's.
 

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You'd think, but I've heard many people say that their Cayman R/Spyder's (the most track tuned 987s yet) were better daily drivers suspension wise than their standard 987 S's or even their PASM equipped 987's.
The Spyder has surprisingly compliant suspension. Given the size of the wheels it's ride is no better or worse than my Cayman on 17's.

I'm not sure it and the R were set up specifically with the ring in mind, rather than just set up by someone who doesn't buy into the super hard suspension=sporty thing. ie; a proper ride/handling/suspension engineering team and not the marketing dept...

It's still not Lotus levels of compliant mind you, they have a little way to go to get that good.
 

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The Spyder has surprisingly compliant suspension. Given the size of the wheels it's ride is no better or worse than my Cayman on 17's.

I'm not sure it and the R were set up specifically with the ring in mind, rather than just set up by someone who doesn't buy into the super hard suspension=sporty thing. ie; a proper ride/handling/suspension engineering team and not the marketing dept...

It's still not Lotus levels of compliant mind you, they have a little way to go to get that good.
Juan:

I would think the type of road would really make a difference based on my experience with two different tire aspects and two different suspensions on my CS. Chicago interstates and downtown streets take a real beating and they are pretty cratered. I use one stretch of 294 every week that is really bad. Speed limit is 55 but everyone goes 75. I can definitely tell 19s from 18s on that road. Funny thing is that my Damptronic suspension is more comfortable than the stock PASM suspension. I'm not sure they had PASM working right in 2006. Sometimes it feels floaty and sometimes harsh. Damptronics is neither. I was also able to lower the car 1/2" more, to the Spyder/R height, without affecting the ride at all because coil-overs allow this.

I've not driven a car with 17s on it, but a PCA member came over once a few years ago. He gave me a ride in his base Cayman and I was astounded at how cushy the ride was. I did his Bose subwoofer for him.
 

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Juan:

I would think the type of road would really make a difference based on my experience with two different tire aspects and two different suspensions on my CS. Chicago interstates and downtown streets take a real beating and they are pretty cratered. I use one stretch of 294 every week that is really bad. Speed limit is 55 but everyone goes 75. I can definitely tell 19s from 18s on that road. Funny thing is that my Damptronic suspension is more comfortable than the stock PASM suspension. I'm not sure they had PASM working right in 2006. Sometimes it feels floaty and sometimes harsh. Damptronics is neither. I was also able to lower the car 1/2" more, to the Spyder/R height, without affecting the ride at all because coil-overs allow this.

I've not driven a car with 17s on it, but a PCA member came over once a few years ago. He gave me a ride in his base Cayman and I was astounded at how cushy the ride was. I did his Bose subwoofer for him.
I suppose they are on to a losing battle trying to make one set up fit all to be fair. Which is at least going to keep the after market suspension boys in business. My problem is that I'd like to have Exe-tc set mine up, and their prices are a tad high!
 

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Interesting... page 1:

Drive this, not that: 10 pricey autos and their cheaper counterparts - Yahoo! Autos
Chevrolet's Corvette has been competing with the Porsche 911 since it first landed on our shores in 1964. Back in the 1960s, the Vette would smoke the Porsche on any road—as long as that road didn't twist. Today the sports car icons are much more evenly matched.

Both should hit 60 mph in just a tick over 4 seconds. The Porsche, with its endless new technology like the Dynamic Chassis Control, which replaces the traditional antiroll bars with active ones to get you around corners faster, would probably squeak out a quicker lap time on the track. But is the Chevy less fun? No way. In fact some would argue that with fewer driver technologies, the Vette might be the purer experience

Some other interesting comparisons.
Like the Shelby GT500 to a Lamborghini.
Similar horsepower one does 200mph one does 201mph.

I'm more & more thinking about getting something like Boss 302 & supercharging it. Then both of my cars will be Fords :eek:. My DD is a Ford F150 Lariat... almost got the Raptor, but was too impatient as in 2009 when looking they were still hard to get where the Lariat was fully loaded with EVERY option and on the lot with a good discount.
 
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