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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have been quite happy with my cat-less Fabspeed headers. Not only that I have a little more growl from the stock exhaust, but also absolutely zero drone.

I recently made couple changes to my car, and basically now have a 2007 Cayman S with Fabspeed ceramically coated cat-less headers and flash. Also have desnork, and RS60 tips, but do not expect these mods to make a great impact.

Just few days ago I had a chance to dyno it for relatively few bucks at the same place that I and others have a library of files. Here are my results:

Completely stock car against how it is today - flash and headers. (Lines in bold, green is my car today, red before mods.)



Now, I will be the FIRST one to say, the stock reading must have been off. It was done on 17" winter wheels and almost two years ago. So, do not get too excited, but follow me here.

Also to address the claim that some dynos are not accurate please see this sample: (lines in bold)



Two different cars, Borla exhaust on each, taken 10 months apart. Similar conditions. 19" wheels. I said, holy **** when I saw that.

OK, here is my car in green with headers and flash against a Boxster S from the previous graph with Borla only. I used the Boxster as these runs were made within 30 minutes of each other. Both on 19" wheels.



Finally, I found Blitzkrieg's highest stock dyno I have seen. By installing Borla he only got 6 WHP or so... and compared that to my green baseline:



I hope you enjoy and appreciate reading about our semi scientific measurements. Better than butt dyno for sure.

As to running cat-less headers and environment. I believe that you make the same environmental compromise by removing pair of cats in headers as when you remove a pair of cats from the exhaust. Remember, our car comes with 4 cats. I only recommend removing the secondary smaller cats located in headers.

Software is easy to install and with Softronic to de-install. Installing headers is easier than installing exhaust. if you keep stock exhaust you get no drone and keep a pair of cats. Gatorbite - c'mon - get a set of headers from Tony and repeat my test please.

One more thing... Tony at EPL seems to have developed headers that get rid of that 3,500 RPM torque dip. I can not wait to try his headers or for someone else to do it.

Tomasz
 

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Also to address the claim that some dynos are not accurate please see this sample: (lines in bold)



Two different cars, Borla exhaust on each, taken 10 months apart. Similar conditions. 19" wheels. I said, holy **** when I saw that.
Seeing that overlay between my car and MasterOfGeeks car was really interesting. Even though we were both running the same modifications, everything I've heard about "notorious dyno innacuracy" did not have me expecting these results. Obviously it is not a good idea to compare results from different machines, but since we're all running on the same dyno, and usually on the same day, we at least have good material for discussion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
30 WHP with headers, 35 WHP with headers and flash. Across the entire RPM range not just silly peak number. If you do not believe the baseline, then 10 WHP over a car with Borla. Flash is worth 5 WHP on these charts, maybe more after it adapts.

If you believe Gatorbite that Borla delivers 21 HP, then just add 10 for headers and flash to that. But remember, I am using a stock exhaust.

This is all WHP add 10% to 15% for crank numbers.

If still not clear, net is that if you want a car with no drone that is making between 20 and 40 more HP than stock with no losses at low RPM - go Softronic flash and FabSpeed cat less headers. Other software and other headers can do worse or better - I do not know yet.

Tomasz
 

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Relax,

It is not that I don't believe or understand, but there are two red lines on your first chart and one shows 281 and the green one shows 289, hence my question about 8hp..... No where in the text of your post do you state the gains. It seemed like a reasonable question. I am not challenging your results.

It is great that you take the time to post your findings, not many take the time to do that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Jeff, I am relaxed. Its just the forum limits communication. I was trying to be cleared or direct, not rude. I say - if you do not believe the baseline... because I am not sure if I do myself.

As to the lines. On each chart I bolded two lines. These are the two I am describing in the paragraph preceding the chart. So on teh first one the two bolod lines are the green and the dark red that is showing 264 hp.

I tried avoiding using peak numbers as I believe that the area under the curve is MOST important. Would you want a mod that gives you extra 10 peak HP at redline, but loses 10 lbs of torque from 2,000 to 4,000? If you saw the dyno curve, you would most likely say no. But if marketed at - gain 10 HP... many people do buy it.
 

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Cool, I get it, on the phone we would not have had the misunderstanding, the typed word leaves lots to be desired! :cheers:

But again, I do applaud the effort of folks like you who take the time to post the facts with nothing to gain financially. This is something that most parts manufactures are quite frankly unable to do.... This is what makes the forums great for the enthusiast. One no longer needs to rely on the word of a product manufacturer for the true results.

Thanks again!

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I am toying with an idea of a Consumer Reports like service for aftermarket parts. I would love to have my own dyno... but I do not think I could turn it into a business that makes money.
 

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Looking at these graphs they all could be from base stock Cayman S. All the power bands displayed are well within the ranges we have seen from many members here as a base read out. Unless you have one car before and after I do not see a difference.

My cars for whatever reason (I just know how to pick 'em I guess) have continously showed a lot less HP than other identical cars on the base dyno runs at TPC. My 997tt showed almost 20WHP less than another tt before and after dyno I saw done there.
 

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Looking at these graphs they all could be from base stock Cayman S. All the power bands displayed are well within the ranges we have seen from many members here as a base read out. Unless you have one car before and after I do not see a difference.

My cars for whatever reason (I just know how to pick 'em I guess) have continously showed a lot less HP than other identical cars on the base dyno runs at TPC. My 997tt showed almost 20WHP less than another tt before and after dyno I saw done there.
Luck of the draw, or engine build my car typically dynos higher than other cars with the same/similar mods. Then again it could be the turboencabulator! :) Where is Fort when we need him? :cheers:
 

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Damm, I know your not supposed to compare who's is bigger but, I had my 08" cs dyno'd today and I feel like someone robbed me of my spiderman jockey shorts after seeing the two dyno's of you guys. I not only spent a lot of cash and time but, the hours of explaining to the wife that " this is it, and then the car will be done." The cs mod's: evoms,ipd,v-flow/de-snork,underdrive pulley,fabspeed sport cat's and exhaust. Maybe the car had a headache ?
here are the results.
 

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Wayne I hope its ok, but I created an image from your pdf here:



External Temp/Humidity and fan power and location have a big impact on dyno numbers. Do you happen to know what those were at time of dyno? Also are you running CA's 91 octane gas? I noticed the first of the 3 runs says it was done in 3rd gear, where the others are done in the correct 4th gear any reason for this?

Seeing as you also have a UD pulley and the v-flow filter I would expect the engine to put out more as well, but it looks like you have nice smooth power delivery, no real dips other than the expected one where tq/hp cross. The mods you listed does seem like you've done about everything on the intake side, I'd wager that the limiting factor is somewhere in the exhaust. Does the fabspeed exhaust eliminate the 2nd set of cats?
 

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Damm, I know your not supposed to compare who's is bigger but, I had my 08" cs dyno'd today and I feel like someone robbed me of my spiderman jockey shorts after seeing the two dyno's of you guys. I not only spent a lot of cash and time but, the hours of explaining to the wife that " this is it, and then the car will be done." The cs mod's: evoms,ipd,v-flow/de-snork,underdrive pulley,fabspeed sport cat's and exhaust. Maybe the car had a headache ?
here are the results.
The dyno sheet says "auto". Do you have a Tiptronic car? If so, that's probably the explanation for less RWHP.
 

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If you are trying to compare your numbers to other people's numbers, I hope you (and everybody else) realize that numbers generated on different dyno's CANNOT be compared. No two dyno's are calibrated the same and as a result they all give different numbers. Sometimes the differences can be dramatic. I have seen as much as 20% difference for the very same car from one dyno to another.

Dyno's ARE useful for assessing gains from mods if (1) you do a baseline dyno first before you add mods, and (2) you do all your runs on the SAME dyno.
 

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If you are trying to compare your numbers to other people's numbers, I hope you (and everybody else) realize that numbers generated on different dyno's CANNOT be compared. No two dyno's are calibrated the same and as a result they all give different numbers. Sometimes the differences can be dramatic. I have seen as much as 20% difference for the very same car from one dyno to another.
I agree, and unless I am mistaken no one here is actually trying to compare dynos in order to make a scientific claim, but rather just have some charts to aid discussion. In that way I think its perfectly fine to compare/talk about dyno graphs. I mean its not really possible to compare butt dynos in a thread unless we start doing a 0-60 pull, jump out measuring size and impact on the seat cushion and post pictures... I was curious to hear more about Wayne's dyno and see if there are potential factors that may have lead to him having a lower readout than he was expecting. As a fellow owner who has had unexpected dyno results (same dyno same day) I wanted to offer any insight that I may have gleaned through my experience.

Dyno's ARE useful for assessing gains from mods if (1) you do a baseline dyno first before you add mods, and (2) you do all your runs on the SAME dyno.
Even if those criteria are met and on the same dyno, external factors can still hinder accuracy. But I will say that the majority of the graphs posted here by Tomasz were done on the same dyno, same day, by a group of us who got together at a local shop, so as intended its a good conversation starter.
 

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Blitz, Thanks for putting those # up. As far as fan placement, the tech put a big swamp type fan in front and felt that a fan placed on the driver side air intake wouldn't do anything because, " air doesn't get forced into that intake", well after a extended, light conversation, one was placed in the general area on low. The performance shop I went to only dealt with, vw rabbit's and ford focus so, I don't know if that could have play any part. All three run's were done within 20 minutes or less on the same machine. I also saw him put the meter clip on the wire-harness cable located, toward the back and below the air box. And the last aspect of this is that I didn't know what gear to do the pull in. Being I have a tiptronic transmission I had him do one in third, and two in fourth (after noticing fourth produced more output) I still have a lot to learn...
I had the psm off, but after the second run the transmission light came on and told me to check the "work station". So after the final run, I had to disconnect the ecu (it was so hot I had to wait) and then reattached it to clear the light. It hasn't returned
It was done with hardly no gas left and the oct was 91. The temp was about 70 and damp with little humidity
 

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Wayne,

From your description I can't find any major fault with how they would have set things up. Those error lights are typical too, can't remember the code but its due to front wheels remaining stationary while the rears are spinning. Typically a 1/2 mile drive will have the ECU reset those. Higher octane gas might yield a slight improvement, but temp/humidity doesn't sound overly hot.

I think blueone might have hit the nail on the head when he said

The dyno sheet says "auto". Do you have a Tiptronic car? If so, that's probably the explanation for less RWHP.
Guessing this is all about the drivetrain loss % increasing due to torque conversion or other factors?
 

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Blitz, thanks again. I can understand that comparison of dyno's isn't an exact science due to all the different variables but one would think if your able to see the same dyno manufacturer and similar mod's that you could see something close to yours. I figured a 5% change but as jake said it could be up to twenty... thats pretty scary. Overall, I wished I spent the money on dyno's as I added modifications. At least a base line......ya, I'm just a new guy. thanks all.
Thomasz, I was wondering if at one point you had a fabspeed full exhaust with the flash. Because I really wouldn't mind having the peak power lower in the rpm range.
It seems you were able to achieve some serious power without the drone. I still have my oem sport exhaust so maybe if I strip the 200cl fabspeed sport headers and put my oem exhaust back on might be the ticket...?:gossip:
 
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