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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Video: 2015 Civic Type R destroys Nurburgring lap record

A FWD Honda 10 seconds slower than a GT4? And faster than a LOT of more expensive, exotic machinery. Dang...way to go Honda. Looking forward to the test of the production version.
Talk about upsetting the Nurburgring status quo.
 

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I was expecting the GT3RS be in the 7min 10s or faster than a cheaper Nismo. At least faster than the chevys and dodges. Looks like Porsche better do something about their price/performance ratios for the non-ultra expensive range. And we aren't even talking about straight line performance here.
 

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Cool, albeit just another Honda vapor car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Looks like Porsche better do something about their price/performance ratios for the non-ultra expensive range. And we aren't even talking about straight line performance here.
Honda/Acura knocked it out of the park on price/performance ratio with the Integra Type R...then sat on their hands for a decade. If the production version of this Civic R can do those kind of laps times, at a price point around half of a base 981, some people will soon be asking tough questions.
 

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I have a hard time believing the production car will be 7:50 or even sub 8:00. I'm looking for the fine print that says the car was shod with tiny Michelin slicks. You can SEE and hear the understeer in the video, something's fishy here. Honda is just uninspired these days, the NSX is nearly irrelevant before it's even released. If the real thing drops a 7:50 I'll be back to eat my hat, but low odds of that.
 

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I actually drove one of those high HP front wheel drivers around the Nurburgring. While they can certainly be fast they are NO fun to drive at least compared to a Cayman.
 

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I was surprised the GT4 and GT3 RS were not faster as well, but it seems at least in part because Porsche is intentionally not trying as hard as they used to.

Tires are critical to times, and advancing tire technology has contributed most of the improvement in lap times in recent years. Cars like the Carrera, GT3, etc have improved an average of 3 second per year at the ring, or .67% per year. Yet Porsche chooses to put 180 treadwear tires on the GT4 and GT3. They are very good tires, but they are now 2 years old and even when new they were ~1.7% slower than 60 treadwear Trofeo Rs.

Honda has gone the other way- Continental has developed a new R compound street tire specifically for the Type R. If we assume it's a fully current Trofeo R competitor you'd expect around a 3% advantage in lap time vs the 2 year old, 180 TW PSC2s the GT4 is equipped with. That would work out to over 14 seconds at the ring, and while I don't think the tire advantage will be that much, it shows how large a variable this is. The Renault Megan R had the previous FWD record, about 15 seconds slower than the GT4 on the same MPSC2 tires- that's probably a more realistic delta.
 

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I was surprised the GT4 and GT3 RS were not faster as well, but it seems at least in part because Porsche is intentionally not trying as hard as they used to.

Tires are critical to times, and advancing tire technology has contributed most of the improvement in lap times in recent years. Cars like the Carrera, GT3, etc have improved an average of 3 second per year at the ring, or .67% per year. Yet Porsche chooses to put 180 treadwear tires on the GT4 and GT3. They are very good tires, but they are now 2 years old and even when new they were ~1.7% slower than 60 treadwear Trofeo Rs.

Honda has gone the other way- Continental has developed a new R compound street tire specifically for the Type R. If we assume it's a fully current Trofeo R competitor you'd expect around a 3% advantage in lap time vs the 2 year old, 180 TW PSC2s the GT4 is equipped with. That would work out to over 14 seconds at the ring, and while I don't think the tire advantage will be that much, it shows how large a variable this is. The Renault Megan R had the previous FWD record, about 15 seconds slower than the GT4 on the same MPSC2 tires- that's probably a more realistic delta.
Great points! Yet I can't recall seeing any lateral g or lap time comparos where they control for tire tech. Are there any out there?
 

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I had a Megane 265 Cup and even with 60 hp less than my CR I can tell you most people would be faster in that than a RWD car. Very easy to drive fast with immense levels of grip with its lsd.
Don't assume they're any less exciting because of FWD. At less than half the price you get a car that is as fast and also specced with all the gadgets and beautiful Recaro buckets... but it's not a Porsche!
 

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^^^. Great points about the tires Pete. On a 14 mile long track like the Ring, tires will make a big difference. It's not apples to apples when different cars are on different tires. It's just another data point to be considered. Not a defining one.
 

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I don't want a Honda. A Porsche is a Porsche. However and this not new... I do get tired of being left in the dust by various cheaper non sports cars. A g35 will crush a boxster base or s. Many cars will. But they get no attention like I do.


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A Porsche is a Porsche.
While I totally agree with that, I just hope it doesn't become illogical to buy a Porsche just because of that. Historically it's been a great brand, but when or if they (or any brand for that matter) fail to keep up, time for them to move off that historical pedestal.

Hypothetically -
Foo: oh so you bought a Porsche, what made you choose one over better cars like foo, bar and baz.
Me: it's a Porsche, there is no substitute.
Foo: cool story bro
 

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Foo: oh so you bought a Porsche, what made you choose one over better cars like foo, bar and baz.
Me: it's a Porsche, there is no substitute.
Foo: cool story bro
2024

Me: So how is the Honda doing?
Foo: Oh, I had to junk it back in 21. Can't get parts, everything computerized, new model out. What did get?
Me: Huh? Nothing. OEM parts are available for every Porsche ever made going back to 1948. I'm keeping this car until the wheels fall off
Foo: cool story bro
Me: There's a reason there is no substitute
 

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A g35 will crush a boxster base or s.
You must be talking about some G35 I don't know about because an Infiniti G35 coupe does 0-60 in about 5.7 - 6.0 secs, and stock runs a 14+ sec 1/4 mile. That's barely fast enough to keep up with a base 981 let alone crush an S.

I used to have a 350Z which has the same powertrain as a G35, weighs a little less, and I can tell you the 981S is significantly faster. With launch control you can get a low 4 sec 0-60 and in the 12s 1/4 mile, but even just flooring it, it's still faster.

And then we haven't even talked about the handling differences between a G35 and a 981. If you're tired of getting left in the dust stop racing people. :)
 

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You must be talking about some G35 I don't know about because an Infiniti G35 coupe does 0-60 in about 5.7 - 6.0 secs, and stock runs a 14+ sec 1/4 mile. That's barely fast enough to keep up with a base 981 let alone crush an S.

I used to have a 350Z which has the same powertrain as a G35, weighs a little less, and I can tell you the 981S is significantly faster. With launch control you can get a low 4 sec 0-60 and in the 12s 1/4 mile, but even just flooring it, it's still faster.

And then we haven't even talked about the handling differences between a G35 and a 981. If you're tired of getting left in the dust stop racing people. :)
A bit OT but..

Maybe frisco981 is referring to a G35 that had a supercharger?

STILLEN G35 Intercooled Supercharger System | Infiniti G35 Superchargers | STILLEN
 

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A g35 will crush a boxster base or s.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've met a g35 or two in my 2007 Cayman S and there was no comparison. My CS walked away time and time again.
 

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2024

Me: So how is the Honda doing?
Foo: Oh, I had to junk it back in 21. Can't get parts, everything computerized, new model out. What did get?
Me: Huh? Nothing. OEM parts are available for every Porsche ever made going back to 1948. I'm keeping this car until the wheels fall off
Foo: cool story bro
Me: There's a reason there is no substitute
If anything, a Honda (and most Japanese brands) lasts longer than a Porsche (or other German brands) lol
I have known people with 200k miles on their hondas still working fine.
There is also a reason why Japan leads Europe (and even US) in tech.

And even ignoring that Foo can make this argument
"I had to junk it back in 21. And bought a new one, both combined cost being less than the Porsche and performing better :)"
 
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If anything, a Honda (and most Japanese brands) lasts longer than a Porsche (or other German brands) lol
I have known people with 200k miles on their hondas still working fine. Blaupunks
"
??? I see old 911s all the time (old as in 1970s cars), and not just at PCA events but people taking them to Malls and just driving. What makes you think there aren't 200K mile Porsches around? People keep them forever. 70% of all Porsches ever built are still on the road.


They even have an entire workshop dedicated to this, Porsche Classic. Every part ever made is available. I'm sure Honda does this too.:rolleyes:


Porsche is now offering modern GPS units in place of the single DIN slots where the Blauplunkts used to go.


Porsche now sells classic oil for the 356 and air cooled 911s Porsche Creates Motor Oil for Classic Air-Cooled Cars – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

Honda does make reliable and reasonable cars. Here Honda is the Most Durable, Longest Lasting Brand in its Class for Past 25 Years - Honda.com But notice it always says "in its class" It also is only talking about the last 25 years. What about before that? They came to America in 1959, started selling cars in the 1960s. And sure, Foo can buy 2 or 3 others hondas, but ownership is a holistic thing that should last as long as possible, if not forever. The oldest Porsches are cherished and highly desired. How about those old Hondas? Can anyone even name the first three Honda cars sold in the US?

I just don't see where you are coming from that "most Japanese brands" last longer than a Porsche. That all depends upon parts availability and durability of the products. Here is a nine year old article Porsche Uber Alles - The Truth About Cars

"I tried to explain the over-engineering that makes Porsche’s road cars so tough. For example, their engines and transmissions are built absurdly strong for their size. You will find more bearing area, big-ends and mains, for each liter of displacement in a 911 engine than in any other engine in production today. It’s an obscure technical point, but a telling one. You simply cannot buy a more robust high performance automobile."
 

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Two people I know personally who own Porsches tried talking me out of buying one due to maintenance issues after the 1st few years of owning and using like a day to day car. I have spent less than 1000 bucks on my honda on maintenance over its 9 year lifespan. It still going. I highly doubt it will be the same for the Porsche. Assuming I use it that much. Doesn't matter how old the car is, matters how much it's used.

No one is talking about what Porsche is doing now or has done in the past. We all know why historically they have been great cars. I don't know why you jumped to what people do now. If you read my post, I clearly said if Porsche fails to keep up. If others reach and beat what Porsche offers now, then there will be no logical reason to buy one anymore. They have to win WEC to keep their historical race heritage. Toyota won last time (Porsche won the lst race in the series), Audi won lemans. If they can't consistently win races anymore, can't make cars with better price, performance, reliability ratios (specially now the American cars are improving) derived from what they learnt at WEC, then one will ask, why buy a Porsche? And then maybe you and perhaps bunch of others can buy one for the things you posted above, which is fair enough, but they would loose me and most future customers who care much less about historical feats vs what the car offers at that moment in time relative to the competition. I always wanted a Porsche but when tesla came out with their roadster, that became my 1st choice. But that got discontinued and model s is too big for my taste, that switched me back to a Porsche. But at this moment it seems what I got will probably be my last Porsche too, mostly because my mental model is changing and I am starting to consider internal combustion engines stupid in this day and age, time for them to die or take a back seat.

Now I do love the 918 and the engineering behind it, buts that's too expensive. If they can port that down that would be awesome. Sub 150k. And I will stop looking at Nurburgring times.

And I said most Japanese brands last longer because that's what reliability reports say, googling should find a few. One you linked. And class does not matter. I have X amount of money, want to have the best car that falls within that budget. I don't care about what class it falls into as long as it's visually appealing and to my taste and accelerates super fast. I want to experience that at every red light or stop sign. That's fun to me.

In any case I do agree that I might be in the minority here in this forum about my personal rationales of buying a car. As such the above is imho. After my own experience this is now resonating more http://youtu.be/L51eoUFp_YA with me.
 

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??? I see old 911s all the time (old as in 1970s cars), and not just at PCA events but people taking them to Malls and just driving. What makes you think there aren't 200K mile Porsches around? People keep them forever. 70% of all Porsches ever built are still on the road.
Porsche and Honda clearly have different target markets. And I’d bet that’s the real reason why there’s so many old Porsches around. Those old Porsches have many, many thousands of dollars of work in them to keep them running. How many people really think a 40-year old Civic is worth that kind of maintenance and repair cost?

A Civic Type-R is no GT4. That being said, for a company that makes everything from lawn mowers to motorcycles to cars and now jet planes, Honda has some pretty serious F1 experience, and I have no doubt that their engineers can figure out a way to make their econobox run around the ‘Ring at serious speed. The real miracle is that they got this car past marketing.
:cheers:
 
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