cayman S engine is so underpowered
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i also used to be number crazy. but after driving the cayman s for the first time (last four cars were E46) i finally got it! it doesn't matter how much power you have if you don't have the handling to control it or the brakes to stop it. this car is perfectly balanced.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr id="quote" noshade="noshade" height="1" />
295 is a bit low for a 3.4 lump I argee, BMW has no trouble with 3.2l putting out 343. The stright 6 in M3 is a great engine and I'd be happy if it was in the Cayman.
-Porscheplayer
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Yeah, I have to agree. The S54 engine in the 01-06 M3's is amazing. They did this in 2000 as a 2001 model, coming up with 343 hp in a 3.2L engine.You'd think since its been six years later after it came out, Porsche would have put up a similar or better engine (if you're just analyzing hp/liter, that is). The S54 engine in the BMW M3'swonEngine of the Year in its class (3.0L to 4.0L) six straight years in a row running now, including over International Engine of the Year in 2001, as well as Best New Engine Award as well. I'd love to see one dropped into a Cayman S. The Cayman S weighs like 450-500 lbs less than the E46 M3 too,so it would be pretty amazing.
I would just say, you should get a Cayman S with very very light options over a base Cayman with a lot of options. My 2 cents of course. Also, with whatever you get, I would say get the Sport Chrono. But even MORE so with the base Cayman, as I expect it needs all the help it can get to seem faster.
Great car though.I'd alsobe more concerned with hp/weight ratios than hp/liter ratios. Thats just me though. Make sureyou get what you want, too. Its a big purchase, and theres nothing worse than having buyer's remorse3/6/12 months later with 'dang,hadI spent X more dollars, I could have had the carI REALLY want'. If you're going to keep this car 3-6 years, get the one you want.
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Edited by - Tracer on 08/23/2006 6:15:54 PM
295 is a bit low for a 3.4 lump I argee, BMW has no trouble with 3.2l putting out 343. The stright 6 in M3 is a great engine and I'd be happy if it was in the Cayman.
-Porscheplayer
<hr id="quote" noshade="noshade" height="1" />
Yeah, I have to agree. The S54 engine in the 01-06 M3's is amazing. They did this in 2000 as a 2001 model, coming up with 343 hp in a 3.2L engine.You'd think since its been six years later after it came out, Porsche would have put up a similar or better engine (if you're just analyzing hp/liter, that is). The S54 engine in the BMW M3'swonEngine of the Year in its class (3.0L to 4.0L) six straight years in a row running now, including over International Engine of the Year in 2001, as well as Best New Engine Award as well. I'd love to see one dropped into a Cayman S. The Cayman S weighs like 450-500 lbs less than the E46 M3 too,so it would be pretty amazing.
I would just say, you should get a Cayman S with very very light options over a base Cayman with a lot of options. My 2 cents of course. Also, with whatever you get, I would say get the Sport Chrono. But even MORE so with the base Cayman, as I expect it needs all the help it can get to seem faster.
Great car though.I'd alsobe more concerned with hp/weight ratios than hp/liter ratios. Thats just me though. Make sureyou get what you want, too. Its a big purchase, and theres nothing worse than having buyer's remorse3/6/12 months later with 'dang,hadI spent X more dollars, I could have had the carI REALLY want'. If you're going to keep this car 3-6 years, get the one you want.
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Edited by - Tracer on 08/23/2006 6:15:54 PM
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This is an interesting thread - lots of discussion and agreeing to disagree... those of us driving the real deal now could have
a) waited for a bigger engine in the 987CS
b) waited for an RS or Turbo version of the 987CS
c) ponied up for a bigger (rear) engined 997
d) bought the base 987C and ponied up for the X51 conversion
e) bought a used P-car (like the 993 Turbo at my dealer - same price as my Cayman)
f) bought an equally exciting competitor from BMW or Audi or ???
I decided to buy the current 987CS and enjoy the summer. And next summer. No regrets (except that I live in a snow belt).
==RedEye
a) waited for a bigger engine in the 987CS
b) waited for an RS or Turbo version of the 987CS
c) ponied up for a bigger (rear) engined 997
d) bought the base 987C and ponied up for the X51 conversion
e) bought a used P-car (like the 993 Turbo at my dealer - same price as my Cayman)
f) bought an equally exciting competitor from BMW or Audi or ???
I decided to buy the current 987CS and enjoy the summer. And next summer. No regrets (except that I live in a snow belt).
==RedEye
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1,094 Posts
a) waited for a bigger engine in the 987CS: well, having one now doesn't preclude one from waiting for the 3.6 or 3.8L LOL.
b) waited for an RS or Turbo version of the 987CS: i am waiting for the RS. whenever that shows up, i be the first to have it.
c) ponied up for a bigger (rear) engined 997: i have those things already.
d) bought the base 987C and ponied up for the X51 conversion: nah. i dont trust anything non oem.
e) bought a used P-car (like the 993 Turbo at my dealer - same price as my Cayman): got those too. not 993TT but other models.
f) bought an equally exciting competitor from BMW or Audi or ???: you got to be kidding. got various M cars and S4, not even remotely close.
I decided to buy the current 987CS and enjoy the summer. And next summer. No regrets: my thoughts exactly.
==RedEye
[/quote]
b) waited for an RS or Turbo version of the 987CS: i am waiting for the RS. whenever that shows up, i be the first to have it.
c) ponied up for a bigger (rear) engined 997: i have those things already.
d) bought the base 987C and ponied up for the X51 conversion: nah. i dont trust anything non oem.
e) bought a used P-car (like the 993 Turbo at my dealer - same price as my Cayman): got those too. not 993TT but other models.
f) bought an equally exciting competitor from BMW or Audi or ???: you got to be kidding. got various M cars and S4, not even remotely close.
I decided to buy the current 987CS and enjoy the summer. And next summer. No regrets: my thoughts exactly.
==RedEye
[/quote]
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1,094 Posts
for me it's not about getting baited. but i like these philosophical discourse about hp/liter, porsche, cayman vs bigger hp competitors. it's great to see other expeerienced enthusiasts' idea/opinion about what they think is ideal. for example, i will never buy a turbo car, evne if one got parked in my garage for free. i just dont like them. i prefer 993c2 over c2s and perfer c2 over 993tt. recently i had the change to drive a extremely well set up s2k (stock motor) but incredible suspension. so much so i may sell one of my caymans or gt3 to add the s2k to my garage. crazy huh.
I do agreed the power/litre is a bit down on the cayman s. The reason for that is simple. Porsche tradition is to inc the bhp of their model every 2 years by 10-20bhp. If there is no further room to inc, they will inc the capacity. This is why I don't think we will get a 3.6l cayman s for the foreseable future!
High specific output engine can be hardwork---eg. honda s2000, 911gt3. These cars redline line at 8000rpm+. You need to rev them .I admit i like these type of engine than GT cars like bentley which concentrate their power lower down eg. 6000rpm. I think cayman s is a good compromise 7300rpm redline. Another point is what make in-gear thrust is the gear ratio, torque to weight ratio; not bhp/litre.
The cayman s is not perfect but for the price, it is a very fine car
I hate to say this thread does not make sense to me. If we find the cayman s too slow, the 2.7l will feel like in reverse gear.
For those who are bashing the cayman s on this website, like to know what car you are driving and your dream cars?
We know that the most famous cayman s basher Mr JC drives an SLK AMG and FORD GT
Compare withmy garage---Sklline gtr with 530bhp, Cayman S, BMW M3
High specific output engine can be hardwork---eg. honda s2000, 911gt3. These cars redline line at 8000rpm+. You need to rev them .I admit i like these type of engine than GT cars like bentley which concentrate their power lower down eg. 6000rpm. I think cayman s is a good compromise 7300rpm redline. Another point is what make in-gear thrust is the gear ratio, torque to weight ratio; not bhp/litre.
The cayman s is not perfect but for the price, it is a very fine car
I hate to say this thread does not make sense to me. If we find the cayman s too slow, the 2.7l will feel like in reverse gear.
For those who are bashing the cayman s on this website, like to know what car you are driving and your dream cars?
We know that the most famous cayman s basher Mr JC drives an SLK AMG and FORD GT
Compare withmy garage---Sklline gtr with 530bhp, Cayman S, BMW M3
I did not buy the car for a 'number' EITHER. I bought because it is the second most fun car I have ever driven ( I have to admit the Gallardo Spyder was a little more fun but a lot more money) I guess if you bought a car only off some 'number' you would hate driving my '56 Original Speedster with it's 70hp!
OK, test drove back to back cayman S and cayman. i have to say that i m going to go for Cayman S. as much as i like the cayman base, however in my experience it doesnt pull as hard as the S. i can feel that i occasionally hit the rev limited on the base as i thought i can go further, but i cant. and for $6000 difference (since i want 6 speed and base only comes with 5 speed), i have to get the S rather than regret it down the road.
now next question is price. when i say $1000 over invoice, he laughed and he offered $3000 under MSRP, which is still high as i see someone get as high as $5000 under MSRP. what do you think?.
now next question is price. when i say $1000 over invoice, he laughed and he offered $3000 under MSRP, which is still high as i see someone get as high as $5000 under MSRP. what do you think?.
Based on the figures at Edmunds.com: there seems to be an (approximately) $9K difference between MSRP and invoive (with options included). Assuming these to be $70K and $61K, you're at $62K and he's at $67K. It seems to me you ought to be able to make a deal around $65 or $66K and both go away relatively satisfied.
My take on invoice price is that I don't believe it is accurate (who the hell knows what the actual deal is between the dealer and the factory), but we may as well use it as if we believed it's accurate. With a $9K difference, I see $3K as a pretty certain discount, $3K for dealer to cover all his operating expenses, and $3K to haggle over. This 'formula' applied in the above case, means a dealbetween $64 and $67K. Of course, this is only arithmetic, and your mileage/arm-wrestling may vary.
See concurrent thread, 'My Discount,' and several previous ones, for real-life examples.
Edited by - Fredyy on 08/24/2006 11:19:15 PM
My take on invoice price is that I don't believe it is accurate (who the hell knows what the actual deal is between the dealer and the factory), but we may as well use it as if we believed it's accurate. With a $9K difference, I see $3K as a pretty certain discount, $3K for dealer to cover all his operating expenses, and $3K to haggle over. This 'formula' applied in the above case, means a dealbetween $64 and $67K. Of course, this is only arithmetic, and your mileage/arm-wrestling may vary.
See concurrent thread, 'My Discount,' and several previous ones, for real-life examples.
Edited by - Fredyy on 08/24/2006 11:19:15 PM
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While the Cayman S is an admittedly cool car, no one on this board likes to hear that it is underpowered which lets face it, it is right now even if you factor in what some call as the actual HP numbers versus the marketing numbers. Why do you think all the energy is spent in search of mods to beef it up. These areprobably great if youhave the cash, can install and fix these yourself,orare willing to riskdealer arguments over warranty voiding issues. While you can argue that a Porsche is not just about HP, which is absolutely true, at some point they have to respond to competive forces on the HP issue from both BMW and even Mercedes. They sure did not do that for the 2007 line. I sure hope they do it for 2008.
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sure more hp is better. and i come from very high hp cars. modding for hp is not simply for the sake of hp, but rather for the fun of modding. plenty of cheaper cars has more hp, porsche has NEVER been high on hp relative to itscompetitors, why should they change? on straight line, even my dads caddy will blow it to pieces. but with a bit of curve, short of 400 hp plus, you have no chance to keep up with cayman given equal driver.
i am not trying to justify my purchase of cayman. if i wnat power, i drive one of my gt3's. i would love to see more hp in cayman, but the fact of the matter is porsche will not do it, they will add 30 hp to it the next round and maybe another 30hp the round after. thus as far as the market is concerned, porsche will not try to surpass competitors in hp.
i am not trying to justify my purchase of cayman. if i wnat power, i drive one of my gt3's. i would love to see more hp in cayman, but the fact of the matter is porsche will not do it, they will add 30 hp to it the next round and maybe another 30hp the round after. thus as far as the market is concerned, porsche will not try to surpass competitors in hp.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr id="quote" noshade="noshade" height="1" />
mooty you don't trust ANYTHING non-OEM or just not certain things? <hr id="quote" noshade="noshade" height="1" />
just about ANYTHING. i have had intake problems, header prob, exhasut prob, LFW problems, seat slider from recard and sparco are POS that i will not use even if you paid me 100k USD, you name it, i have had prob with it. i am very very very intolerant of ANY problem. last time i had CEL come up on my car, i sold it within 4 hours of the light coming up. when it took me more than 60 min to get the f'k brake pad out of my m3, i had stoptech (like porsche calipers, easy to chg pads) installed that same day. when my fikse had a hairline crack, i put it in my trash can, my first GT3 had some irritating noises, i sold the car that weekend. so i am a little insane. unless something is proven to be 100% better than oem, i rather not try it, regardless of how much more hp it can bring me. but that's just me.
other than my time on the track, i work 16 hours days and sleep 4 hours or so. i simply dont have the time to screw around with anything broken. thus i always buy two of everything (2 cayman, 2 gt3, 2 vw bug turbo, 2 m3 etc) so i have a spare.
sometimes i would order a part from aftermkt tuner, they often tell you it's IN STOCK, whatever that mean. to me that mean i can hav it NOW airshipped to me. if i had to wait, i get very unhappy. many times by the time the part arrives, i have sold my car and moved on.
</blockquote>Edited by - mooty on 08/25/2006 10:39:03 PM
Edited by - mooty on 08/25/2006 10:43:13 PM
mooty you don't trust ANYTHING non-OEM or just not certain things? <hr id="quote" noshade="noshade" height="1" />
just about ANYTHING. i have had intake problems, header prob, exhasut prob, LFW problems, seat slider from recard and sparco are POS that i will not use even if you paid me 100k USD, you name it, i have had prob with it. i am very very very intolerant of ANY problem. last time i had CEL come up on my car, i sold it within 4 hours of the light coming up. when it took me more than 60 min to get the f'k brake pad out of my m3, i had stoptech (like porsche calipers, easy to chg pads) installed that same day. when my fikse had a hairline crack, i put it in my trash can, my first GT3 had some irritating noises, i sold the car that weekend. so i am a little insane. unless something is proven to be 100% better than oem, i rather not try it, regardless of how much more hp it can bring me. but that's just me.
other than my time on the track, i work 16 hours days and sleep 4 hours or so. i simply dont have the time to screw around with anything broken. thus i always buy two of everything (2 cayman, 2 gt3, 2 vw bug turbo, 2 m3 etc) so i have a spare.
sometimes i would order a part from aftermkt tuner, they often tell you it's IN STOCK, whatever that mean. to me that mean i can hav it NOW airshipped to me. if i had to wait, i get very unhappy. many times by the time the part arrives, i have sold my car and moved on.
</blockquote>Edited by - mooty on 08/25/2006 10:39:03 PM
Edited by - mooty on 08/25/2006 10:43:13 PM
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr id="quote" noshade="noshade" height="1" />
just curious, have anyone SUCCESSFULLY ever put current 997CS engine into cayman chassis? How's the fitment? Any modifications needed? <hr id="quote" noshade="noshade" height="1" />
yes, orton performance, ruf, farbacher loles, some obsecure japanese tuner whose name escapes me now, and many other euro tuners have done it already.
it's not DIY, you need ECU reprogrammed, hvy duty clutch, while you are at it, you should put in intake, header, exhaust, 3rd radiator and pwr steering cooler (if you track a lot, this overheats). ruf and f. loles do all of the above in their conversion. avg price for ruf and loles are around 45k.
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Edited by - mooty on 08/25/2006 10:46:52 PM
just curious, have anyone SUCCESSFULLY ever put current 997CS engine into cayman chassis? How's the fitment? Any modifications needed? <hr id="quote" noshade="noshade" height="1" />
yes, orton performance, ruf, farbacher loles, some obsecure japanese tuner whose name escapes me now, and many other euro tuners have done it already.
it's not DIY, you need ECU reprogrammed, hvy duty clutch, while you are at it, you should put in intake, header, exhaust, 3rd radiator and pwr steering cooler (if you track a lot, this overheats). ruf and f. loles do all of the above in their conversion. avg price for ruf and loles are around 45k.
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Edited by - mooty on 08/25/2006 10:46:52 PM
I don't think Porsche give a toss what BMW and Merc is doing with their cars. Hence giving boxster s the 3.4l engine and still price it below the cayman s.
I got a nitrous skylline with 530bhp. Yes its faster but I do find the cayman s got enough shove in the back to feel it is reasonably fast in the straight line! I can overtake in 6th eg. in normal daily driving, the most important benchmark isnot the 0-60mph figure or bhp/litre. It is the in-gear acceleration esp third gear. For overtaking,a low 30-70mph through the gearsis more useful than 1/4 mile sprint.egs inautocar magazine
30-70mph50-70mph(in 6th)
Cayman s 4.4s 6.4s
Audi RS44.1s 5.9s
Aston Martin DB9 4.6s 8.1s
M6got 7 speed 3.6s 7.1s
Corvette c6 3.9s 9.0s
Carrera gt 2.7s 5.1s
Lancer Evo8 4.9s 7.7s
Mclaren F1 2.1s 3.7s
Lotus Exige4.8s 7.8s
350z 5.4s 8.2s
Z4Mcoupe 4.6s
997 turbo3.6s 4.5s
Maserati Gransport 4.4s 6.6s
F430 3.4s 5.7s
Gallardo 3.4s 8.1s
NSXyear 2002 4.0s8.0s
TVR Sagaris 3.0s5.5s
S2000 5.2s 8.9s
Old TT 225bhp5.8s 9.1s
Your average family car eg. BMW 330i takes 5.8s and 8.2s to accomplish the above benchmark.
I had modded my cayman s cause I find the chassistoo good for the BHP. It may well handle another 100bhp without anychassis mods. Not because it is too slow!!!
Edited by - andylee on 08/25/2006 11:22:57 PM
Edited by - andylee on 08/25/2006 11:31:22 PM
I got a nitrous skylline with 530bhp. Yes its faster but I do find the cayman s got enough shove in the back to feel it is reasonably fast in the straight line! I can overtake in 6th eg. in normal daily driving, the most important benchmark isnot the 0-60mph figure or bhp/litre. It is the in-gear acceleration esp third gear. For overtaking,a low 30-70mph through the gearsis more useful than 1/4 mile sprint.egs inautocar magazine
30-70mph50-70mph(in 6th)
Cayman s 4.4s 6.4s
Audi RS44.1s 5.9s
Aston Martin DB9 4.6s 8.1s
M6got 7 speed 3.6s 7.1s
Corvette c6 3.9s 9.0s
Carrera gt 2.7s 5.1s
Lancer Evo8 4.9s 7.7s
Mclaren F1 2.1s 3.7s
Lotus Exige4.8s 7.8s
350z 5.4s 8.2s
Z4Mcoupe 4.6s
997 turbo3.6s 4.5s
Maserati Gransport 4.4s 6.6s
F430 3.4s 5.7s
Gallardo 3.4s 8.1s
NSXyear 2002 4.0s8.0s
TVR Sagaris 3.0s5.5s
S2000 5.2s 8.9s
Old TT 225bhp5.8s 9.1s
Your average family car eg. BMW 330i takes 5.8s and 8.2s to accomplish the above benchmark.
I had modded my cayman s cause I find the chassistoo good for the BHP. It may well handle another 100bhp without anychassis mods. Not because it is too slow!!!
Edited by - andylee on 08/25/2006 11:22:57 PM
Edited by - andylee on 08/25/2006 11:31:22 PM
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