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I’ve seen other forums with dealer reviews. Can recall if we have a section here or not. Could prove useful.
Shawn in VA (USA)
CPO purchase experience. The Good, Bad, and the Ugly. How was yours?
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Shawn in VA (USA)
ABT12, that sounds like a horrible experience. I had mentioned the reason I did not pay for shipping was a negotiated agreement. I did not elaborate though. Maybe now relevant as has some similarities almost happened with my purchase process. For some background, I did spend some time MANY years ago as an F/I manager at a branded dealership and had family in the business as well. I know the business.
Your problem sounds like things I have heard before. As a note, dealers receive back end fees from finance companies if you use their financing. There is no prepayment penalty I am aware of in auto finance contracts, so if you accepted it and paid it off after you received car, should be no cost to you (I have not seen your contract, so could be different in CA.) Also those superseding fine print details generally are standard (but I thought only applied to new cars that are ordered as sometimes price can change during production, and car comes in with a higher sticker price). Again having not seen the docs, can't be certain. Overall sounds like a really unprofessional experience though.
After I found my car on line, I had questions for the salesperson. I wanted to know a few things. Were the tires replaced as 8 year old car and could be expired, do they do a 40K service (CPO calls for all scheduled service due within 6 months be completed). I was concerned 40K service might not be considered required, as car only had 7800 miles on it, but it should get it due to age.
Salesperson got back to and confirmed with his manager that all tires would be replaced with new and 40K service would be done as well. I was thrilled, and agreed to purchase car. I just wanted to receive a copy of the CPO report and the shop order for the service to confirm all was done. I asked for a total cash due amount so I could wire them the money and have car shipped (at my expense).
When I received the invoice, it had close to $1000 in "dealer fees" added. I called to ask what that was all about. They said all Florida dealers charge this, and it includes DMV processing. I noted that I am doing all of my DMV and tax paperwork in NY, so why should I pay. Ultimately, they reduced this fee to $499. Really, they should just call this "additional dealer profit" as that is all that it is. It is a "gotcha" fee. I reluctantly agreed to total as I really wanted this vehicle, and wired the money. I do know this is common, and the reduced fee was more in line with what other dealers charged.
Now the trouble began. After my money was received, I get a call that there is "a problem". The tires and 40K service were meant for another very similar Boxster on the lot at same time. I even knew the car, as I was considering it as well. I was upset about this, and manager offered to unwind the deal and return my money as they said was an "honest" mistake. I asked if I could just buy the other car, but they said it was already sold to someone else. Used car manager offered a counter offer of paying my shipping as apology, but would not do the 40K service. Still not good enough for me. I escalated to the GM of the entire franchise. I explained when a business makes a mistake, it should not become the purchaser's problem. Business's should take it on the chin and do right thing. Ultimately, they paid the shipping and did the service, so my confidence was restored in this dealer's integrity.
What I received was a car that had a bad battery, wrong battery, an unresolved electrical problem killing the battery, and missing parts required in the 40K service (no cabin air filters changed, although they did send them to me after my complaint to service manager). However am out of pocket for a new battery, and now I have to resolve electrical issue with local dealer on my time.
That is where I stand now. So I share your pain in dealing with some dealerships. I expect we don't name names (although maybe should to alert other buyers, but it may just be an isolated experience). I trust that Porsche NA has a higher level of accountability than this. May write them, if consensus is that there is any real recourse available other than venting steam.
Your problem sounds like things I have heard before. As a note, dealers receive back end fees from finance companies if you use their financing. There is no prepayment penalty I am aware of in auto finance contracts, so if you accepted it and paid it off after you received car, should be no cost to you (I have not seen your contract, so could be different in CA.) Also those superseding fine print details generally are standard (but I thought only applied to new cars that are ordered as sometimes price can change during production, and car comes in with a higher sticker price). Again having not seen the docs, can't be certain. Overall sounds like a really unprofessional experience though.
After I found my car on line, I had questions for the salesperson. I wanted to know a few things. Were the tires replaced as 8 year old car and could be expired, do they do a 40K service (CPO calls for all scheduled service due within 6 months be completed). I was concerned 40K service might not be considered required, as car only had 7800 miles on it, but it should get it due to age.
Salesperson got back to and confirmed with his manager that all tires would be replaced with new and 40K service would be done as well. I was thrilled, and agreed to purchase car. I just wanted to receive a copy of the CPO report and the shop order for the service to confirm all was done. I asked for a total cash due amount so I could wire them the money and have car shipped (at my expense).
When I received the invoice, it had close to $1000 in "dealer fees" added. I called to ask what that was all about. They said all Florida dealers charge this, and it includes DMV processing. I noted that I am doing all of my DMV and tax paperwork in NY, so why should I pay. Ultimately, they reduced this fee to $499. Really, they should just call this "additional dealer profit" as that is all that it is. It is a "gotcha" fee. I reluctantly agreed to total as I really wanted this vehicle, and wired the money. I do know this is common, and the reduced fee was more in line with what other dealers charged.
Now the trouble began. After my money was received, I get a call that there is "a problem". The tires and 40K service were meant for another very similar Boxster on the lot at same time. I even knew the car, as I was considering it as well. I was upset about this, and manager offered to unwind the deal and return my money as they said was an "honest" mistake. I asked if I could just buy the other car, but they said it was already sold to someone else. Used car manager offered a counter offer of paying my shipping as apology, but would not do the 40K service. Still not good enough for me. I escalated to the GM of the entire franchise. I explained when a business makes a mistake, it should not become the purchaser's problem. Business's should take it on the chin and do right thing. Ultimately, they paid the shipping and did the service, so my confidence was restored in this dealer's integrity.
What I received was a car that had a bad battery, wrong battery, an unresolved electrical problem killing the battery, and missing parts required in the 40K service (no cabin air filters changed, although they did send them to me after my complaint to service manager). However am out of pocket for a new battery, and now I have to resolve electrical issue with local dealer on my time.
That is where I stand now. So I share your pain in dealing with some dealerships. I expect we don't name names (although maybe should to alert other buyers, but it may just be an isolated experience). I trust that Porsche NA has a higher level of accountability than this. May write them, if consensus is that there is any real recourse available other than venting steam.
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As a 10 year owner of a 2013 BS--now with 42K on it, I never had a battery issue during the first 9 years of ownership by using a trickle charger daily and locking the car.
I finally replaced the OE battery last spring and to this point retain a full charged car over the course of the winter.
Just for grins, keep the trickle charge on and your car locked and see if it affects the battery condition for a period when the car is not being driven.
If it is one of those nasty, hard to diagnose parasitic battery drains, you need to get PCNA involved at the earliest possible moment to make you whole rather than a remote dealer. This type of service could take some time to figure out and you want PCNA to be standing behind you backing the CPO warranty for the repairs rather than your CC.
Hope this gets fixed soon.
I finally replaced the OE battery last spring and to this point retain a full charged car over the course of the winter.
Just for grins, keep the trickle charge on and your car locked and see if it affects the battery condition for a period when the car is not being driven.
If it is one of those nasty, hard to diagnose parasitic battery drains, you need to get PCNA involved at the earliest possible moment to make you whole rather than a remote dealer. This type of service could take some time to figure out and you want PCNA to be standing behind you backing the CPO warranty for the repairs rather than your CC.
Hope this gets fixed soon.
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Not to add to your issues, but I'm afraid that once Porsche starts diving into this electrical issue, they will be quick to blame the non Porsche branded battery you put in. Be prepared in case they require you to purchase a Porsche branded battery before they will continue diagnosing the issue.
Forewarned is forearmed.
Forewarned is forearmed.
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There are no restrictions by the forum on posting this sort of information, but as the terms of use explain, neither the forum, forum staff, nor owner of the forum (VerticalScope) take any responsibility for incorrect or libelous types of posts here by members. Dealerships/businesses who feel they may have been slandered could reach out in some means to correct or discourage that sort of posting. I've only experienced that happening on one forum I was involved in - a BMW M car forum - where a turbocharging vendor who was infamous for blowing up engines threatened to sue everyone ever involved with the forum due to negative posts by members about his crapola blowing up engines. The threat was as far as that went - and there was never any editing or removal of posts by the forum staff. The posts in question were factual documented first-hand experiences which is a perfect defense AFAIK against claims of libel.
I generally abide by the words of my sainted RIP mother-in-law.. "if you have nothing good to say.. say nothing.." (paraphrased a bit) - but I also do try to say GOOD things and note GOOD businesses and dealers that I've found. Both positive and negative reviews are powerful tools.
If you do decide to post a negative review of a dealer/business - please protect yourself by posting factually about experiences you can document and back up your version of what transpired. In that case, I don't feel you'd have much to worry about.
I am of the belief about “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”. Doesn’t preclude general discussion without specific names used. As far as liability, facts and documentation are paramount. All of which I have documented in email conversations with management at dealer, so if I went down that path, I am confident I have, as they say “the receipts”.
As far as the aftermarket battery, it is an exact model that a Porsche service advisor had told me they have used as a backup when they were unable to get Porsche branded battery. (Interstate 70ah 760cca AGM technology battery). Porsche branded batteries don’t have some super secret sauce that makes them only alternative for replacement. Registered it to computer via odb2 tool. Besides that, all the electrical issues are documented in their service history prior to purchase date of the new battery. If they were to honor the word of the service advisor in Florida that represented to me that battery was new, and if not working properly would be replaced under cpo warranty, they should just put in a Porsche branded battery AND fix the underlying problem that is killing it. I would have no problem with that.
As far as the aftermarket battery, it is an exact model that a Porsche service advisor had told me they have used as a backup when they were unable to get Porsche branded battery. (Interstate 70ah 760cca AGM technology battery). Porsche branded batteries don’t have some super secret sauce that makes them only alternative for replacement. Registered it to computer via odb2 tool. Besides that, all the electrical issues are documented in their service history prior to purchase date of the new battery. If they were to honor the word of the service advisor in Florida that represented to me that battery was new, and if not working properly would be replaced under cpo warranty, they should just put in a Porsche branded battery AND fix the underlying problem that is killing it. I would have no problem with that.
I purchased my 981 Cayman S as a single owner CPO, sight unseen also out of state. I had a pretty good experience.
I asked for all the service records they had on the vehicle and I received them without hesitation.
I got a detailed video call walkthrough of the vehicle beforehand where the rep showed me all imperfections. Most of which were rock chips on the front bumper cover and hood + the usual warped door panels. After my hesitation, they agreed to re-paint the front bumper cover and hood as part of the deal. The repaint was done really well and looks great.
The only point of frustration I had was around warped door panels. The dealer promised they would be "fixed" but instead of doing it the right way by way of new parts, this dealer took the warped panels off, and super glued them down. This obviously did not work.
When I noticed it upon receiving the vehicle, the selling dealer told me to go a local Porsche dealer and get them to warranty it since the vehicle is a CPO. I was able to do this and the panels have been replaced under warranty but it was frustrating and I very much felt like the selling dealer kicked the can down the road.
I asked for all the service records they had on the vehicle and I received them without hesitation.
I got a detailed video call walkthrough of the vehicle beforehand where the rep showed me all imperfections. Most of which were rock chips on the front bumper cover and hood + the usual warped door panels. After my hesitation, they agreed to re-paint the front bumper cover and hood as part of the deal. The repaint was done really well and looks great.
The only point of frustration I had was around warped door panels. The dealer promised they would be "fixed" but instead of doing it the right way by way of new parts, this dealer took the warped panels off, and super glued them down. This obviously did not work.
When I noticed it upon receiving the vehicle, the selling dealer told me to go a local Porsche dealer and get them to warranty it since the vehicle is a CPO. I was able to do this and the panels have been replaced under warranty but it was frustrating and I very much felt like the selling dealer kicked the can down the road.
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A bit OT, but not really..
At one point I had considered building a database of recommended shops for the US (by state) and other countries. As I envisioned it - there would be a back-end database (useful to capture uniform data and to force some information we would want with any review) and a fill-in-the-blanks sort of form.
The problem is VerticalScope would look at doing something like this only on a system-wide basis - that's thousands of sites then having the option to add the same to their website. They felt this wasn't a priority and they didn't have the resources to do it, so they wouldn't agree to do it.
So - I left the part of the structure I built out (basically about half the states added as sub-forums) in place but hidden from public view. I had hoped to have the database searchable by zipcode (at least for the US) - trying for maximum useability for our members and making it easy to enter the data.
I have thought of providing the space (state forums) and a standardized layout where people could follow the layout and make their own reviews. The issue with doing it this way - lots more work for the moderators since people aren't really good at following instructions or even reading them... so lots of editing and probing for more information would be required from the moderators.
The other thought was to make it a Google-based database - linked from here. We probably won't be able to implement the distance to zipcode sort of feature, but we could probably make it sortable by zipcode, state, or city. And searchable by company name.
I'll take this offline now - and be happy to discuss the possibility of doing this - and how we might do it without the need for VerticalScope to modify all their software on all their websites... please contact me DIRECTLY if you have any interest in this project.
At one point I had considered building a database of recommended shops for the US (by state) and other countries. As I envisioned it - there would be a back-end database (useful to capture uniform data and to force some information we would want with any review) and a fill-in-the-blanks sort of form.
The problem is VerticalScope would look at doing something like this only on a system-wide basis - that's thousands of sites then having the option to add the same to their website. They felt this wasn't a priority and they didn't have the resources to do it, so they wouldn't agree to do it.
So - I left the part of the structure I built out (basically about half the states added as sub-forums) in place but hidden from public view. I had hoped to have the database searchable by zipcode (at least for the US) - trying for maximum useability for our members and making it easy to enter the data.
I have thought of providing the space (state forums) and a standardized layout where people could follow the layout and make their own reviews. The issue with doing it this way - lots more work for the moderators since people aren't really good at following instructions or even reading them... so lots of editing and probing for more information would be required from the moderators.
The other thought was to make it a Google-based database - linked from here. We probably won't be able to implement the distance to zipcode sort of feature, but we could probably make it sortable by zipcode, state, or city. And searchable by company name.
I'll take this offline now - and be happy to discuss the possibility of doing this - and how we might do it without the need for VerticalScope to modify all their software on all their websites... please contact me DIRECTLY if you have any interest in this project.
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I'm very well aware there is no secret sauce in the Porsche branded battery and that only a few battery manufacturers produce the majority of the available batteries. I just know how these dealers love to pass the buck.
Sorry, no insult meant to Platinum5150. You have a valid point. But it will be my response for Porsche service if they give me any grief. Battery was installed after car was unsuccessfully repaired on previous visit. If they want to give me the new battery that was represented to me as in my car already which now required replacement due to electrical system killing it, that is my goal. Tune in next week for outcome.
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No insult taken..I should have worded that better!
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None of this surprises me. I’ve had BMW of Steven’s Creek claim that the receipt was proof of the correct diff fluid in my E46 M3 - only to have a destroyed diff 50 miles later.
Toyota Northside Chicago delivered to me a new 2016 FR-S where one of the techs used the key to force the gas flap open. Then blamed me for damaging the car. That was my first new car purchase after putting myself through grad school.
No dealer is ever totally transparent and often abuse their position of power in the transaction. I see it more frequently than not. I really think you should write and call PCNA and note who they are here.
Hoenh Porsche delivered a CPO 991.2 convertible S to my father - promised body work and repairs and then dragged their feet for months.
I’m personally not made of money - and I frequently work a second job. I have zero patience for games when it comes to my money and time. NA branch and BBB are very easy calls to make
A few years ago I bought a 2015 Boxster CPO from Porsche Delaware. I also had the dying battery issue and the headlight issue. In addition, the car had some Nitto tires on it that turned out to be ancient and couldn't even handle a 20mph rotary on a damp morning. Also, the windshield and headlight washers weren't working. Porsche Milwaukee North did all the work on the washers under warranty. They charged me for replacing the battery and suggested I ask for reimbursement from Porsche Delaware, who promptly sent me a check. Luckily I didn't have the same current draw problems as OP. The headlights were perfectly functional, just a bit ugly, so I was willing to live with it.
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Great idea to lock your Porsche, I read this somewhere. My battery lasted 7 years, I think locking it every night contributed to the its longevity
I mean no disrespect, but who the hell pays $700 for a car battery? That's maybe $150 for the battery and how much to install it????
I'm not going to be able to add anything new to this conversation except that everything the dealer told you were lies such as the 40K service and the new battery.
by the way you don't need a 40K service if your car has 8K miles, and the age thing is a good way for someone to make $2,000. you don't need new spark plugs at 8K doesn't matter how hold the car is. you don't need new air filters at 8K either.
I apologize, I'm not contributing here. bridge for sale in the desert etc...
I'm not going to be able to add anything new to this conversation except that everything the dealer told you were lies such as the 40K service and the new battery.
by the way you don't need a 40K service if your car has 8K miles, and the age thing is a good way for someone to make $2,000. you don't need new spark plugs at 8K doesn't matter how hold the car is. you don't need new air filters at 8K either.
I apologize, I'm not contributing here. bridge for sale in the desert etc...
After I get my parasitic draw resolved I want to test the theory that locking your car has some benefits to protect life of battery. I have heard that on this forum as well, but is it real or mostly anecdotal hearsay?
Many other variables can make someone’s battery last longer than others. Living in cold climates, frequent stop/starts, many short trips vs long, not using of a trickle charger or allowing battery to frequently get severely discharged all can shorten life.
Logic might suggest a set alarm with active interior sensors would draw more current on a battery than if not enabled. But, maybe setting it causes car to go to sleep faster, and that saves more energy than the alarm draws? Don’t know. Modern alarms draw very little, but still have some impact. Eventually left on with no trickle charger attached it will kill the battery. Interstate battery company actually advises against leaving alarm set unnecessary. See image.
There is a simple technical way to check if draw is better or worse with alarm set. After you turn off car, circuits stay active for a period of time (seems to be up to 30 minutes). Then car goes to sleep. Most systems go into a very low current mode to maintain computer memory (this draw is easily measured by clamp on amp meter on battery). Measure this draw vs the draw without alarm set and see what is higher. Also measure draw until car goes to sleep without alarm set and with it set to rule out setting alarm sending car into sleep mode faster. A bit of math and we can compute time to deplete battery pretty accurately to answer if setting alarm is better, worse or not a factor in battery life.
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Many other variables can make someone’s battery last longer than others. Living in cold climates, frequent stop/starts, many short trips vs long, not using of a trickle charger or allowing battery to frequently get severely discharged all can shorten life.
Logic might suggest a set alarm with active interior sensors would draw more current on a battery than if not enabled. But, maybe setting it causes car to go to sleep faster, and that saves more energy than the alarm draws? Don’t know. Modern alarms draw very little, but still have some impact. Eventually left on with no trickle charger attached it will kill the battery. Interstate battery company actually advises against leaving alarm set unnecessary. See image.
There is a simple technical way to check if draw is better or worse with alarm set. After you turn off car, circuits stay active for a period of time (seems to be up to 30 minutes). Then car goes to sleep. Most systems go into a very low current mode to maintain computer memory (this draw is easily measured by clamp on amp meter on battery). Measure this draw vs the draw without alarm set and see what is higher. Also measure draw until car goes to sleep without alarm set and with it set to rule out setting alarm sending car into sleep mode faster. A bit of math and we can compute time to deplete battery pretty accurately to answer if setting alarm is better, worse or not a factor in battery life.
Don’t disagree on the battery pricing at dealers. It is an easy $200 diy job and even reprogramming the computer to register a new battery can be done with inexpensive programmers. And I did not pay for the services performed by dealer as part of negotiations in purchase, so I agree those services are very expensive too, but age can be a condition for replacement of plugs which is part of the 40k service, so happy to get it done for free. Cabin filters are minor, but can be pretty dirty after 8 years even with light mileage. Environmental exposure in the engine compartment over time can damage spark plugs so best to change them anyhow. Those that want to maintain their own cars outside of dealer can do stuff themselves or go to independent shops. Just keep good records as peforming scheduled maintenance has value when selling car as well. As has been said by a famous oil filter company. Pay me now or pay me later.
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From Rennlist---some ideas on how to avoid and deal with a dead battery:
Which has the least battery drain - unlocked or locked? - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums
997 Forum - Which has the least battery drain - unlocked or locked? - Searching through the various threads, I can't find a definitive answer on whether to leave my 997.2 unlocked or locked (without interior monitoring - 2 lock button presses) to reduce battery drain. I would think leaving the...
rennlist.com
Thanks for the link. My thread is getting somewhat off topic on CPO experiences, so battery issues must be a concern for many. Seems Rennlist post still seems to be just debating whether locking and setting alarm or not doing it gets better results in battery’s life. It is just from anecdotal testimony though. Nothing quantitative that I can see from actual testing done here. Just my operational/analytical work experience asking for a more scientific perspective. Is there anything from Porsche “official” service bulletins that make any recommendations regarding this?
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