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Collegues:

I'm in the middle of my first oil change on a Cayman S. Have everything assembled. Oil has been drained, filter changed without a hitch. The problem is the crush washer.

This car is used. The plug was on really tight. I cannot believe Porsche Recommends 37 ft lbs on an aluminum pan but so be it. I also see that the washer is really thick. This is unnecessary and makes the washer squash out too far lodging it in the lip around the oil plug on the pan if you tighten too much, which is what I think the last oil changer did.

Has anyone had to remove one of these crush washers when it's been lodged into the pan like this? I've tried about 5 different little metal picks and screwdrivers and can't seem to get under it.

So far, every procedure I've tried to perform on this car has presented some sort of ridiculous complication. Grrrrr....

Thanks for any success stories on this subject.

-Six
 

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Someone over tightened it; it is not a Porsche problem. That is another reason to worry about DIY maintenance when buying used. Have you tried very small needle nose pliers? They can allow you to grip and pull.

The correct torque and the correct crush washer offer no problems. Yours was not done correctly and probably not with the correct parts. Good luck.
 

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I just changed my oil for the second time (with a dealer oil change in between) - I know they refer to the washers as crush washers but the one the dealer used, and the new one I got from Suncoast, just look like plain washers, not the crush washers I'm used to on other cars (but maybe they're soft enough to deform slightly).

No problems here with getting them on or off. Not sure what else to suggest to you for your situation. Can you try to cut thru the washer (carefully) w/ something like a Dremel or small chisel?
 

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To deform this much I suspect the washer was reused multiple times in addition to overtorque. A previously stated when changed and torqued properly removal is not a remotely a problem.

If you try cutting it don't go all the way through. Scoring the seat on the pan would likely result in a leak. The washer does deform a little but not enough to fill in a deep score. Cutting part way through in a couple locations and trying to get it to fold up would be safer. I'd try Santa Fe's ideas with needle nose pliers first.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for your help, guys. I got it by using a metal angle pick and a screwdriver in the hole to pry against. Threads were slightly buggered when I re-inserted the plug, but not bad. Good seal on the new crush washer. I'll check for leaks tomorrow, but I think it'll be fine.

Porsche seems to use a very wide crush washer compared to other marques. They also spec a higher torque for their plug, probably because it takes more to crush this big thing. Threads seem capable of the torque, however.

Now that I've done it myself, I know what to expect next time.

Thanks again!

-Six
 

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Hi Six. Glad you got it out. As others have said, when all was done properly before - It is almost a pleasure to change the oil on these cars. You probably already do, but just in case - always inspect the old filter for any debris. That is why they are the insert type. You should see nothing but oil.
 

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... I cannot believe Porsche Recommends 37 ft lbs on an aluminum pan but so be it. I also see that the washer is really thick. This is unnecessary ...
I've had no problems with any of my 3 oil changes thus far, nor with 2 others helping friends. However, after you've completed your R&D please do let those bumbling Stuttgart engineers at Porsche know your recommendations for appropriate torque settings and which crush washer would be best.
:beer:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I've had no problems with any of my 3 oil changes thus far, nor with 2 others helping friends. However, after you've completed your R&D please do let those bumbling Stuttgart engineers at Porsche know your recommendations for appropriate torque settings and which crush washer would be best.
:beer:
Dan:

Good to know that your 5 oil changes have gone smoothly.

I've been to see Bugatti, Lamborghini,Ferrari, Morgan and BMW factories. I took care of my 1995 M3 for 15 years with very little dealer help. This includes several difficult mods and trusting the car with my life on tracks all over the Midwest. Before that, I owned a BMW 2002tii for 10 glorious and maddening years. I've owned a 911SC and didn't get along so well with it. It had the older fuel injection, the older cam chain tensioner and shifted like a tractor. Suspension seemed to be shot and I just found the whole car to be expensive to keep and intimidated and not worth it. This CS seems to be a much nicer car to live with.

What I've seen is that the attention to little things like sensible assembly practice and straightforward servicing varies directly with world sales volume. Morgan uses high volume engines that are easy. Only the Morgan parts are strange. Ferrari and Lambo are just plain ridiculous to service although Ferrari is making an effort now to improve that. BMW is a cake-walk. They even put the oil filter on top to avoid contamination when changes are done outside in sandy areas. They have a big following in the middle east. Porsche seems to fall somewhere in between BMW and the exotics in difficulty. This oil change seemed very strainght-forward and it was except for this little issue.

If someone gets on here and calls BMWs "grocery getters" again, I may have to come out to California myself and...and....ooooo.

Porsche does a lot of things right and I love this car, but after servicing the BMW for so long, it's very difficult to get my head around some of the things I've seen on the CS. I anticipate some accessibilty issues with the mid engine. I'm saving some of the bigger plans for winter. I just want to get the basics down now and I'm leaving the car stock for a while until we're better acquainted.

My first visit "behind the curtain" was to put in a factory CDC-4 disc changer that I bought from one of the members. I would describe that as an adventure in patience. Would have been much easier to put in the Denison iPod adapter and I would have gone that way had I known.

I'm sure any "bumbling engineer" worth his salt will agree that some things can always be improved. The M3 was also far from perfect, but in different ways.

I'm just getting frustrated with every little procedure taking so much longer than it should even after much reading and study and having the right tools. I'm sure I'll warm up to the mechanical logic of this car eventually.

When it comes to my hobby car, I don't buy and flip. If I like it, I pretty much marry it, buying the tools and the right mods and making it my own to care for. There's this beginning part where one decides if the car is worth it or not and that's where I am. My intention is to own this CS for a long time.

Just thought I'd check to see if the group might have run into this before I ended up buying a new pan. I got it solved, so no problems and don't expect any again. Tightened to exactly 37 ft. lbs. with a new crush washer, added my 8.2 quarts and all seems to be well.

-Six
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I just changed my oil for the second time (with a dealer oil change in between) - I know they refer to the washers as crush washers but the one the dealer used, and the new one I got from Suncoast, just look like plain washers, not the crush washers I'm used to on other cars (but maybe they're soft enough to deform slightly).

No problems here with getting them on or off. Not sure what else to suggest to you for your situation. Can you try to cut thru the washer (carefully) w/ something like a Dremel or small chisel?
I got my filter from Suncoast as well. It's a Porsche branded filter.

These are soft aluminum flat washers. They are designed to squish under the plug. There are three benefits.

The first is that it helps to seal the plug.

The second is that it allows a little leeway in tightening the plug without damaging threads.

Third is that it acts as sort of a lock washer to keep the plug on.

All of them I've seen prior to this are less "fat". That is, the I.D. and O.D. are closer to the same size. The smaller ones squish easier and allow the plug to have a lower torque. Both seem to work fine. I've never had one come out. I used much less torque on my BMW and never had an issue, but this seems to work fine too now that the old one is out.

-Six
 

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Re: How To: Ramps

Related Comment:
I did my first oil change a week ago. A snap because I built two 10 foot long platforms plus 4 foot folding ramp sections to raise the car. They work the nuts! Now I can get under anywhere and the car is level.
 

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Re: How To: Ramps

Related Comment:
I did my first oil change a week ago. A snap because I built two 10 foot long platforms plus 4 foot folding ramp sections to raise the car. They work the nuts! Now I can get under anywhere and the car is level.
Pictures are required!
 

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These are soft aluminum flat washers. They are designed to squish under the plug. -Six
I wouldn't call what's used on these cars crush washers. Certainly the one I took off from the factory wasn't crushed. I didn't haul out a micrometer to make sure, but when I compared the used one to the new one they looked the same. Actual crush washers are made of copper, and when you tighten them down you can actually feel them collapse.

blueone's theory - these aluminum washers are there primarily to keep the drain plug tight as the oil pan assembly heats and cools (and expands and contracts), and secondarily as a means of reducing wear on the bearing surface. I think the only reason Porsche specifies replacing it is to preclude the possibility of the washer cracking on reuse, which is something aluminum does easily.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I wouldn't call what's used on these cars crush washers. Certainly the one I took off from the factory wasn't crushed. I didn't haul out a micrometer to make sure, but when I compared the used one to the new one they looked the same. Actual crush washers are made of copper, and when you tighten them down you can actually feel them collapse.

blueone's theory - these aluminum washers are there primarily to keep the drain plug tight as the oil pan assembly heats and cools (and expands and contracts), and secondarily as a means of reducing wear on the bearing surface. I think the only reason Porsche specifies replacing it is to preclude the possibility of the washer cracking on reuse, which is something aluminum does easily.

Blueone (great handle, btw.) The washers do keep the plug tight. I think "bearing surface" is the wrong term. There's no bearing on my oil pan anyway. Also, aluminum isn't going to crack. You can squash these pretty hard, they don't crack. I've reused them in a pinch and they still work, but I think they'd eventually lose some effectiveness, especially if overtorqued repeatedly.

They absorb a lot of the load on the threads if the plug is over-tighted and I'm sure they've saved a few oil pans.

-Six
 

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I think "bearing surface" is the wrong term. There's no bearing on my oil pan anyway. -Six
The "bearing surface" in the fastener industry is any surface a fastener clamps down on to. I agree that your oil pan doesn't have a bearing (I thought those were reserved for mufflers... :) ), but every fastener adheres to a bearing surface.

As for aluminum not cracking, try taking a piece of aluminum and bending it back and forth a few times.

I really don't think that washer is going to prevent oil pan damage from over-tightening, but I'm not going to perform any experiments to disprove your hypothesis. I'd bet 100 lb/ft of torque wouldn't crush one.
 

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Hi Six. Glad you got it out. As others have said, when all was done properly before - It is almost a pleasure to change the oil on these cars. You probably already do, but just in case - always inspect the old filter for any debris. That is why they are the insert type. You should see nothing but oil.
Agreed. I can't imagine what the prior mechanic did to fuse that washer to the pan like that. Yikes... I use a Snap On torque wrench to make sure mine is tightened to exactly 37 ft.lbs.. All of mine have come off with zero effort. I suspect your next one will too.

I've done a lot of things to my Cayman already, including 5 exhaust changes. Getting those exhaust flange nuts off is a real pain in the butt, but everything else has been a piece of cake for me, including this:

 

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Discussion Starter #17
Agreed. I can't imagine what the prior mechanic did to fuse that washer to the pan like that. Yikes... I use a Snap On torque wrench to make sure mine is tightened to exactly 37 ft.lbs.. All of mine have come off with zero effort. I suspect your next one will too.

I've done a lot of things to my Cayman already, including 5 exhaust changes. Getting those exhaust flange nuts off is a real pain in the butt, but everything else has been a piece of cake for me, including this:

Gator:

I just bought a cat-back Mil-Tek. I think it's one of the quieter ones and pretty well made. I got a great deal on a used/new one from a CC member. It's still in original box. Not used, just pre-purchased. I think he either got cold feet or decided to buy a full system from one vendor. Have you tried that one?

I'm thinking I'd like to do the flash and plenum over the winter too. Don't know which to get with this. I looked at Stratmosphere. They sell the Miltek stuff but don't show the headers anymore. I want to keep a cat on the car.

FIVE EXHAUSTS????:eek::eek::eek: Whadaya, K-Man S?:hilarious:

Take care,

-Six
 

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Just changed my oil, flushed brakes and clutch with ATE Blue. Regarding the crush washer, it appears to be identical to the volvo ones. Volvo tend to deform the washer a bit, the CS didn't. I bought a few from the dealer, but have a bunch of volvo one lying around still.
Flushing was fairly easy using a motive pressure bleeder and my two post lift. Only problem was the drain hose I was using liked to suck in air unless pressed tight to the nipple, couldn't figure out where all the bubbles were coming from initially. Nonethe less, used less than 1 liter to flush.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Just changed my oil, flushed brakes and clutch with ATE Blue. Regarding the crush washer, it appears to be identical to the volvo ones. Volvo tend to deform the washer a bit, the CS didn't. I bought a few from the dealer, but have a bunch of volvo one lying around still.
Flushing was fairly easy using a motive pressure bleeder and my two post lift. Only problem was the drain hose I was using liked to suck in air unless pressed tight to the nipple, couldn't figure out where all the bubbles were coming from initially. Nonethe less, used less than 1 liter to flush.
Wong:

Search "Super Blue" on the forum to find the bit about the guy who had his warranty claim denied when they saw blue brake fluid in his brake lines. If you like ATE, use Type 200 instead...Same stuff, but no blue dye. I used it for years in the M3 after struggling with Castrol LMA for years before.

Since I've been on this site, I've read about Motul, which costs only a little more and has much higher wet and dry boiling points. If you're going to track, this is the stuff. The only thing better is the Castrol at $150 a quart.

I've always used a vacuum bleeder, but I saw one of these Motive units used at a track event and was impressed with how simple it was, so I bought one. If nothing else, it will shrink my carbon footprint as I won't have to run the compressor to bleed brakes anymore.

Bubbles happen. All that line down at the nipple does is route the fluid into your catch container. It's never a perfect seal around there.

I've got braided lines ordered and I'm waiting for them before flushing my brake lines.

-Six
 

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Just changed my oil, flushed brakes and clutch with ATE Blue. Regarding the crush washer, it appears to be identical to the volvo ones. Volvo tend to deform the washer a bit, the CS didn't. I bought a few from the dealer, but have a bunch of volvo one lying around still.
Flushing was fairly easy using a motive pressure bleeder and my two post lift. Only problem was the drain hose I was using liked to suck in air unless pressed tight to the nipple, couldn't figure out where all the bubbles were coming from initially. Nonethe less, used less than 1 liter to flush.
Wong:

Search "Super Blue" on the forum to find the bit about the guy who had his warranty claim denied when they saw blue brake fluid in his brake lines. If you like ATE, use Type 200 instead...Same stuff, but no blue dye. I used it for years in the M3 after struggling with Castrol LMA for years before.
bigwong: You might want to check with your dealer - While this one member had trouble with his dealer over a warranty claim while he was using ATE blue, it seems to be a dealer-by-dealer thing - I use ATE blue all the time, but sometimes I use the Gold and sometimes the OEM Porsche fluid - they're really all about the same, and my dealer has said they don't care as long as it's good DOT4 fluid, that meets Porsche OEM specs or better.

Since I've been on this site, I've read about Motul, which costs only a little more and has much higher wet and dry boiling points. If you're going to track, this is the stuff. The only thing better is the Castrol at $150 a quart. -Six
Motul and Castrol are great fluids - and while they have very high wet and dry boiling points, that also have a much higher propensity to absorb moisture. If you use these in a street driven car that does a few DEs, you really need to change your fluid about every three months - six months at the longest - because of their high moisture absorption rate. Racers use this stuff, not only because it is good, but because they flush/bleed the brakes after every event or test.

brad
 
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