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"We do not cover bodily injury or property damage caused by an auto driven in or preparing for any racing, speed or demolition contest or stunting activity of any nature, whether or not prearranged or organized."

Technically, HPDE's aren't preparing for any race or contest. They're driver's education.

Just curious how this should be interpreted before I spend a bunch of money on track insurance.
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

I have been buying DE insurance for several years now - I figure it is just part of the cost of the weekend (which I figure is about $1,500 without any travel or hotel expenses).

Even if your regular insurance would pay the claim, chances are you are going to have to fight them for it, and then they will drop you.......
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

That language does not exclude HPDEs. But be sure to carfully read the entire policy. Some insurers are now excluding damage that occurs while driving on a road surface designed or intended for racing.

Personally although I am confident that my insurance policy covers DEs, I still buy the track insurance just so I don't have to worry about possibly losing my policy or having my rates go through the roof.
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

I figure it is just part of the cost of the weekend (which I figure is about $1,500 without any travel or hotel expenses).
Esses, is it really that much? That's what I've been spending all this time? I've been blindly swiping away my credit cards in pursuit of my "new addiction" (I really haven't bothered to keep tabs on how much)...

OK, time to cheapen up some more!!! :hilarious:

OP, get the track insurance. One "oops" and you'll be down, what, $30,000-50,000 (include track repairs that you'll be billed for). You can get nice discounts if you sign up for multi-event policies. Have fun.
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

The only way to know for sure is to ask your insurance agent.

And follow the simple rule - never take a vehicle to the track you can't afford to walk away from. Like my first instructor told us: 'nothing we are going to do today is going to add value to your car'!
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

Esses, is it really that much? That's what I've been spending all this time? I've been blindly swiping away my credit cards in pursuit of my "new addiction" (I really haven't bothered to keep tabs on how much)...
Off the top of my head to start with.............
Entry fee - $400
Brake Pads - $100 / weekend (Pagids $500 / 4- 5 events)
Tires - $200 / weekend ($1,200 / 6-8 events before they are heat cycled out, if not worn out before then)
Gas - $100+
Brake Fluid Flush - $50 ($200 / 4 events; OK, I should learn how to do this myself)
Rotors - $50 ($2,000 GiroDisks, very little wear so far; don't know # of DEs on them off hand)
Track Insurance - $240
I know I am missing something else.........
All the other misc., although you may use them for AutoX and you tend to use them over many years - Helmet, shoes, gloves, Go Pro, etc.

Then add in the mods that you try to justify, and then it really starts getting serious!
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

I am not a lawyer, but since it seems to stress "racing" and "contest" it seems to me that if they can determine that it is a timed event where you may be compared against other cars/drivers (possibly by class) that they would not cover it. Timing "could" mean to some that there is another incentive to go faster than your skill set..... That they may not cover.
I agree with the thought that you should ask the insurance company directly.
-jay
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

In most states exclusionary insurance policy language is strictly construed against the insurance company. In short, if an activity is not clearly excluded, it's covered. I wouldn't have any reservation about proceeding on the assumption my DE use is covered if my policy read the same as the OP's. However, (disclaimer) I'm not giving anyone legal advice, state laws differ, and it's always prudent to get legal advice for a legal question.

BTW, (and this is serious stuff) the biggest issue with exclusionary policy language is NOT whether it excludes your property (car) damage, but whether it excludes your liability coverage, e.g., you hit another car and seriously injure/kill its driver. That could expose you to an uninsured loss many times the cost of your Carrera GT! DE participants should carefully read their insurance policy.
Track insurance does nothing to protect your ASSets from that risk.

I've just switched from State Farm which excludes or severely limits both property and liability coverage for any on track claim, to a different company that covers DE use. I switched because I can't afford to self insure a mega-buck liability claim and I can't buy track insurance for that.

Note: if you are a PCA Instructor instructing at a PCA DE you're covered under PCA's very good event liability policy. However, if you are not instructing, or instructing at a non-PCA DE, you may be driving naked.
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

BTW, (and this is serious stuff) the biggest issue with exclusionary policy language is NOT whether it excludes your property (car) damage, but whether it excludes your liability coverage, e.g., you hit another car and seriously injure/kill its driver.
This is one of the reasons I have "retired" from DEs, at least for a while. :(

But let me caveat this - for those that have not ever done a DE, or are just starting out, I really do not consider this a big issue. Go out and learn to drive your car, it will make you a better driver!

Instructors in the cars do a great deal to prevent stupid things from happening, which unfortuneately, I have been seeing way too much of in advanced run groups. I finally got to the point where I feel there is too much of my safety in the hands of others and / or, thier stupidity may put me in a postion of hitting them...............
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

I assumed the OP was quoting his "track insurance" policy so that better not exclude DEs!

I'm sorry and embarrased to say that I backed my CS into the tirewall at the bottom of the hill last weekend at Road Atlanta, so I will be able to report excatly how St. Farm handles this. I was told by several people at the track, including a body shop guy who called his agent to confirm, that St. Farm would give you 1 DE crash. But the adjuster quoted me language that Chip mentioned. The exclusion is 2 parts: first being various types of "contests" and the second, more troublesome one, being for just about anything that occurs on a facility primarilly used for racing. My first thought was that there may be more non-racing events at RA than racing but I think the Porsche school has moved to Barber so that is probably not the case any longer. Damaged was the rear bumper cover, R tail light, spoiler, R rear quarter panel, and paint damage on the R door. Amazingly there appears to be no structural or mechanical damage; indeed, w/ some wire and duct tape I was back on the track later the same day. Another item I would not have thought of is the seat belt retractor - it has an explosive charge inside that not only cinches you in but locks the belt. So it has to be replaced, and is a few hundred bucks. I've been paying in to St. Farm for 40 years, 2 vehicles most of that time, so I hope they will cut me some slack.
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

I am a lawyer, and I have litigated insurance coverage issues, but my malpractice insurance policy excludes coverage for providing legal advice on this forum. :hilarious: Seriously, you should not only ask your agent or the company directly, you should do so my email to get a "written" reply that you can use should they ever later deny coverage.
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

Seriously, you should not only ask your agent or the company directly, you should do so my email to get a "written" reply that you can use should they ever later deny coverage.

I believe you meant to write ".... you should do so _BY_ email... "
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

I assumed the OP was quoting his "track insurance" policy so that better not exclude DEs!

... so I will be able to report excatly how St. Farm handles this. I was told by several people at the track, including a body shop guy who called his agent to confirm, that St. Farm would give you 1 DE crash. But the adjuster quoted me language that Chip mentioned. The exclusion is 2 parts: first being various types of "contests" and the second, more troublesome one, being for just about anything that occurs on a facility primarilly used for racing.
Sorry to hear about your off. Policies from the same insurance companies often differ from state to state, so I hope your TN State Farm policy is different than mine here in MO, although your quoted language seems to be the same. I read it to exclude coverage for anything that occurred on a race track, so I'm interested to hear whether you have any success with your claim. I hope you do!

I recently changed from State Farm because of their exclusion of DEs, even though I'd been with them for 20+ years.
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

The attorney in me wants to argue the point "A facility primarily used for racing". I know at my local track there are FAR more DE style events held throughout the year than there are competitive races. I would argue that the facility is primarily used for driver education and occassionally used for racing as evidenced by the track's own events calendar. I would think that would be true for most tracks around the country that could not survive financially by hosting just a few races a year....
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

I had an issue on the liability side last year. I hit another car after we both spun off due to a GT3 dumping it's coolant. Items of interest:

1. The other guy's insurance didn't care about the waivers he signed. Subragation was the issue.

2. I had to get an attorney.

3. PCA National legal stepped up and made contact on my behalf. I was instructing at that event.

4. It pays to have a good insurance agent. My policy didn't cover me and I knew it. However, my agent went to the wall on my behalf and was instrumental in getting the claim dropped.

5. My agent told me that had there been bodily injury he didn't think the other company would have dropped the claim for liability. If you are in a good financial position you are also a good target.

6. Parts and labor add up fast on these cars. :eek:
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

St. Farm denied the claim based on the exclusionary language in the policy. I knew that it was an excluded claim but had heard that St. Farm would waive the exclusion for long-time customers once. I'm not sure the adjuster took it far enough up the pipe to someone knowledgeable about DEs.

Dan, who did you switch to who covers DEs? I have a renewal on my desk and might switch too.

FWIW the damage estimate is not nearly as bad as I feared. If we can save the quarter panel, and using discounted OEM parts I found online, it will be around $5600.
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

I'd like to know who you switched to as well. Please PM if you can't say in the forum.
 

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Re: Is this exclusionary language? (HPDE Insurance)

I'm sorry and embarrased to say that I backed my CS into the tirewall at the bottom of the hill last weekend at Road Atlanta
Sorry to hear it was you that had the off at the DE.

Just curios, did you drop a wheel off the outside of the corner before you turned in?

Since they repaved the track, and took out what used to be an old pit in road, I have always been concerned about dropping a wheel there. In fact, I thought that ALMS would have thrown a fit about it - seems to me that whole triangle between the outside pit in and turn 12 should be paved, or at least, a very wide curb should be put in around the outside of the corner (I think they should also put a wider / longer curb at the exit of 12 too - it would save a lot of crashes that happen on exit).
 
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