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Re: Any track insurance provider recommendations?

I just joined the Diablo region PCA last week :) lockton only gives PCA discount for PCA events and the one I'm doing is with NASA NorCal at Sonoma Raceway.. Lots of walls there.

Who is your current insurance provider that covers DEs?
 

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Re: Any track insurance provider recommendations?

Some thoughts:

- IMO, for DEs following PCA Rules (or similar) the likelihood of a covered incident (i.e., damage or damage over the deductible) in Beginner/Novice is very, very slight. Car to car contact is extremely rare. Most all serious DE incidents occur in more advanced/instructor groups where speeds are greater, time/distance for corrections are less, and drivers push their limits and their car's limits enough to run out of talent or luck at bad places. Given the high deductible, I think DE insurance at beginning levels is questionable, especially at tracks with good runoff.
I concur with Dan - as a novice at a tightly instructed PCA event, the chance of crashing is very small, and even then, the main risk would be a track with short run-offs and hard barriers. I didn't start buying track insurance until I started getting fast enough to scare myself :eek: though I usually only buy it when there is a possibility of hitting concrete or steel barriers.

In over 5 years of track days/DEs, I can only recall 2 car to car contact incidents, and neither of those was a PCA event. On the other hand I've seen a couple of guys total nearly new cars going off, so YMMV. :)

In any case, relax, listen to your instructor, and welcome to your next addiction . . . :drivingskid:
 

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Re: Any track insurance provider recommendations?

For On-Track, one claim and they will no longer insure you for three years. That is based on experience. I can still get Lockton (and do).
 

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Re: Any track insurance provider recommendations?

I have my first DE coming up and deciding between On Track Insurance or Lockton Motorsports. They are the same price, but I am leaning towards On Track because they are admitted in California and Lockton is not. Anyone have any experience with either company?

Thanks in advance,
Charlene
Im not an insurance expert, so take my advice with that in mind. I read and researched both programs extensively (as much as I could find on their pages, which admittedly isnt that much).

Lockton is acting as an agent for Mt. Hawley Insurance and OnTrack Insurance AKA Jacob J Katz is an agent for Great American Insurance. I believe both companies are admitted in all 50 states.

Researching the insurance companies themselves (agents dont really matter, they just sell policies) I felt more comfortable with Great American.

Good luck and have fun!
 

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Re: Any track insurance provider recommendations?

For On-Track, one claim and they will no longer insure you for three years. That is based on experience. I can still get Lockton (and do).
Locktons site has the same terms.

No agent wants claims, thus the reason they will not insure someone if they are high(er) risk, it affects their pocket books. Agents get paid commission on the front end and extra money on the back end based upon premiums and losses.

Its strange that its well known how much a realtor makes on a deal, but many business owners have no idea what their agent is making off them.
 

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Re: Any track insurance provider recommendations?

For On-Track, one claim and they will no longer insure you for three years. That is based on experience. I can still get Lockton (and do).
Does anyone else have real-world experience on whether regular auto insurance companies cover damage at autocross, tracks, etc?
 

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DE Liability insurance question

Hi,

I've been asked a question (that I can't answer) by a potential DE student about Liability insurance. Here the question asked by this person:

"So what do drivers do about insurance liability? It doesn't seem that my policy (company name redacted) covers anything to do with "racing or speed events". And even though there is "HPDE" insurance available (via the club website) that covers car damage, it doesn't cover any liability claims. So do most drivers just hope they don't get sued if/when someone gets hurt (or worse)?"

One way I could partially answer would be to quote the liability statistics (if I had them). Anyone out there have information or advice for this person? I'm fairly sure that this is a Never-been-there-never-done-that, first time DE1 student.

Serious discussion only, please. Or just ignore.

Rink
 

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As a Auto Damage Supervisor of a major insurance company, here is what I (kind of know)...

Underwriting has written exclusions in the policy of our policy for coverage if an automobile is used during a racing event. Racing is (to them) defined as anything that is a timed event. They assume that if the event is timed then the driver is always pushing the envelope trying beat his/her time etc.

With regards to liability, our local SCCA events cover that with their own insurance while on the course. That is why everyone signs at the entrance and everyone signs a waiver etc. The insurance covers injuries etc...but not the drivers auto for his/her collision damages.

Liability for "others etc." is what the track insurance covers. But Collision coverage for the drivers car is NOT really readily available. It is a driver assumes all risk type thing.

In all reality that is what sponsorship is designed for. It is to help the driver and his car get fixed if it's damaged etc.
 

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I am not a lawyer or in any way represent the PCA or any other organizer. Some comments - as it applies to DE (competition, as pointed out, is a very different kettle of fish.) However, since anyone can sue anyone for anything in the US, I don't think anything can be stated with any certainty.

1) PCA events have liability coverage for participants (i.e. bodily injury, not vehicle damage). Other event organizers have different standards and one should ask the organizer. From the Lone Star region site (linked to a PCA national document):
...There are certain types of injury and damage that are not covered under the event liability coverage. The policy does not provide coverage for damage to automobiles participating in the events and does not provide coverage for the repair/replacement of structures damaged at the event location during the event...

...In addition to event liability insurance, PCA also provides Participant Accident coverage that is in effect at all moving car events. This coverage is higher at club race events than all other moving car events. This coverage provides injured participants with excess medical expense reimbursement, accidental death and dismemberment coverage and loss of income coverage. You should consult the PCA website or Region Procedures Manual for the specific coverage limits. However, please note that you must have signed a Release and Waiver form in order to be eligible for the Participant Accident coverage...
http://www.lsrpca.com/linked_docs/membership/PCA%20Event%20Insurance%20and%20Waivers%2010%2005%2007.pdf

2) In DE, the risk of contact is quite low, especially in the lower level run groups. Point by's ensure that both passer and passee are aware. Most damage that occurs is from single car offs.

3) There is an understanding and custom that everyone assumes the risk for the vehicles and their own personal injury when they drive on track - whether damage is from incidental contact or indirect (e.g., slipped in someone's oil). I've heard anecdotally that those who have tried to sue others for damage on track have had this explained to them initially. If not dissuaded by this, they have been "blackballed" from participating in any other events - organizers do talk to each other.

Note also that you agree to this when you sign the waiver (part of the above link):
3. Hereby AGREE TO INDEMNIFY AND SAVE AND HOLD HARMLESS the Releasees and each of them FROM ANY LOSS, LIABILITY,
DAMAGE, OR COST INCLUDING BODILY INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE I may incur arising out of my presence or participation in the
EVENTS, WHETHER CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OR FAULT OF THE RELEASEES OR OTHERWISE.

4. Hereby ASSUME FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY RISK OF BODILY INJURY, DEATH OR PROPERTY DAMAGE arising out of or
related to the EVENTS whether caused by the NEGLIGENCE OR FAULT OF RELEASEES or otherwise
4) As you say, the DE insurance that I've seen will cover collision damage to the covered vehicle, but not other liability.

All of the above said, I've never heard of anyone sueing or otherwise insisting on reimbursement for vehicle damage or personal injury on track at any event I've attended. At the same time, as mentioned earlier, anyone can sue anyone for anything in the US, regardless of any waiver you may or may not sign.

ed
 

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Back again a feeling a little silly. I have now corresponded with the PCA National Insurance contact Ken Laborde. He has provided a document describing the PCA National event coverage. I'll check with him later today to see if I can put it up here.

My apologies to our registrars, Jim and Kathleen, who take care of this for our region. So seamlessly done that I completely spaced out on having signed the forms at each of our AX and DE events!

Rink
 

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Am I covered at a DE? (I think not)

I have searched and read a number of posts on "track insurance"... where some feel they are 'covered' by their comprehensive policy for DE type events.

In my case, I'm not sure I'm covered, as I have the following 'exclusion' in my policy binder:


Loss to "your covered auto" or any "non-owned auto", located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:


a. Competing in; or

b. Practicing or preparing for;

any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.



QUESTION: I don't think I would be covered for damages at a DE. While I could possibly argue that I'm not practicing for any upcoming race or speed event (their clause)... the fact that damage may occur inside a facility designed for racing would seem that I wouldn't be covered.

Thanks for any advice/interpretations, et.al.
 

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Re: Am I covered at a DE? (I think not)

The only insurance company I have ever heard pay out on DE accident was USAA, most other main stream insurers have a clause excluding anything happening on a "racing surface".
I have heard of insurance companies sending a photographer or trolling photography sites that post DE pics looking for licenses plate numbers matching their insured so that they can drop them or whatever. Hence the number of DE cars you see with painters tape covering their plates..
 

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Re: Am I covered at a DE? (I think not)

The only insurance company I have ever heard pay out on DE accident was USAA, most other main stream insurers have a clause excluding anything happening on a "racing surface".
I have heard of insurance companies sending a photographer or trolling photography sites that post DE pics looking for licenses plate numbers matching their insured so that they can drop them or whatever. Hence the number of DE cars you see with painters tape covering their plates..
This has really been discussed ad nauseam with nothing new added.

I have personal knowledge of a number of covered incidents at DEs with several different insurance companies. Coverage depends on the specific policy language and is a question of contract and insurance law, not internet speculation.

My policy includes language similar to the OP's and I am 100% certain I am covered for DEs, but what others choose to believe is their business and at their risk, so YMMV.

The suggestion that insurance companies are trolling for customers who track their cars is ridiculous. Some individuals tape over license plates because of the periodic (but unsubstantiated) internet rumors that car makers seek to avoid warranty coverage for those tracked cars.
 

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Re: Am I covered at a DE? (I think not)

In the case of Geicko (don't know about others) they will cover the car in a Driver Education event as long as there is an instructor in the car. Once you go solo you're on your own. You might question your insurance company along those lines.:cheers:
 

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Re: Am I covered at a DE? (I think not)

I have searched and read a number of posts on "track insurance"... where some feel they are 'covered' by their comprehensive policy for DE type events.

In my case, I'm not sure I'm covered, as I have the following 'exclusion' in my policy binder:


Loss to "your covered auto" or any "non-owned auto", located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:

a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;

any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.



QUESTION: I don't think I would be covered for damages at a DE. While I could possibly argue that I'm not practicing for any upcoming race or speed event (their clause)... the fact that damage may occur inside a facility designed for racing would seem that I wouldn't be covered.

Thanks for any advice/interpretations, et.al.
Be sure to check and amendments at the back of the policy.
 

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Re: Am I covered at a DE? (I think not)

The only insurance company I have ever heard pay out on DE accident was USAA, most other main stream insurers have a clause excluding anything happening on a "racing surface".
I have heard of insurance companies sending a photographer or trolling photography sites that post DE pics looking for licenses plate numbers matching their insured so that they can drop them or whatever. Hence the number of DE cars you see with painters tape covering their plates..
From my USAA policy, a definition added under an Amendment:

"Driving contest or challenge includes, but not limited to:

2. An activity that challenges the speed or handling characteristics of a vehicle, or improves or demonstrates driving skills, provided the activity occurs on a track or course that is closed from nonparticipants."
 

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Re: Am I covered at a DE? (I think not)

According to my State Farm agent, my policy in VA does not cover any events at the track, including DE.

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