Planet-9 Porsche Forum banner
1 - 20 of 47 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys

Just to give you some background, over approaching the last six years I've owned a couple of gen 1 CS cars, both cars have been mainly daily drivers with the most recent car having some minor braking mods to help assist with dealing with the extra heat incurred while on track days.

During this time my knowledge of the gen 1 3.4 has gradually increased, and I now realize that in order to take track work to the next level, (and drift away from a predominately road/fast road setup), I must address the short comings of the gen 1 car, i.e put some money in to the car.

I've pondered long and hard about this, but have come to the conclusion that I am going to sell my gen 1 and seek out a gen 2 3.4 and start the journey from there instead, I have no plan for a rapid rate of mods over a short period, but more of a steady 'grow with the car' kind of progression.

O.k, here is where I need your counsel, the end goal I wish to achieve is a track car, (no exact time frame in mind), the road usage of this vehicle will gradually diminish to zero as budgets allow.

What are your thoughts on the following two routes:-

1 - Buy an 09/10 gen 2 CS and gradually mod to track spec.

2 - Stretch my current finances, buy a CR and probably have to mod anyway.

I've intentionally cut those two routes quite basic for now, but hopefully with your help I'll be able to bounce off you guys a bit and move forward in the right direction.

I would really appreciate your thoughts.
Regards
Rob
:cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
659 Posts
I have also owned a 987.1 CS. I moved up to an 09 987.2 CS a couple of years back with 10K miles.I use it mostly on the track. I pondered the same questions that you presented above. Because there is a vast premium on used CR's, I decided on the 09 CS and used the money saved to good use on suspension upgrades, tune and an extra set of track wheels and tires. I am pleased with my choice, but if a CR with low mileage and Race bucket seats was available at a price sub 60K, I would take it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Acropora

Firstly, thanks for the reply.

At the moment, it's the premium price that I would have to pay to get hold of a CR that's really making me think long and hard about going down the CS route as well. If I thought I could buy a CR and I was able to adjust the stock setup to achieve both track geo and suspension characteristics then my decision would be simple, (I'd take the CR route), the thing is I don't want to be spending a premium and then having to mod the same sort of things that I'd finish up doing on the 987.2 anyway, surely that defeats the object being as this cars future will be a track car.

With my intentions being track biased, like you say, the cash saved from buying an early 987.2 CS can be put to good use, you can afford to make some quality changes to the car and still fall inside the budget of a CR.

I like the look of the direction you have taken with your mods, initially I have a similar direction in mind.

Out of interest, have you been able to compare your car to any standard CR's out on track? and can you please expand on why having already taken steps modding your gen 2 CS you would consider a low mileage CR with buckets, would that be a budget or technical orientated decision?

Thanks again
Rob:cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
You say you are aware of the Gen 1's shortfalls (who isn't):) so have you considered having them modded out? I'm sure it wouldn't cost you any more than the additional amount you will have to find to upgrade to a Gen 2 and you will then have a track-ready car instead of a newer, albeit more robust un-modded car.

I should add that I have also considered doing what you are proposing, but have decided to stick with my Gen 1 and if/when it requires engine work, I shall mod it at the same time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
617 Posts
Off the top of my head, I think the cheapest gen II CS cars are around high $40s and the cheapest CR cars are around high $50s (and good luck finding sport buckets at that price). So, I'd make a list of mods on each car and price them out. If in the end the price difference between the two is close, get the CR. If the CR is still more, get the CS. My guess is that the CS route will be cheaper and you can get one sooner and start that journey. As this will be a track car, things like color and interior don't matter, providing a lot more choices. Goods luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi Trev450

Many thanks for posting.

Hopefully I didn't give the impression of droning on about the Gen 1 shortfalls, after all, the majority of people will never encounter them, and so according to a point of view an inflated picture can be portrayed, I've loved both my gen 1 CS's with only minor problems encountered - great car.

Trev, with regards to considering modding out the gen 1 the answer is yes, I've got to say I have thought long and hard about it, I was in love with the idea for quite a while, but just recently as the time is getting closer to pulling the trigger I've had my doubts, in a nutshell it's the gen 2 motor that I really want.

It's true for the difference in price between a gen 1 and a gen 2 CS I could get quite a few mods done, it's a bit like what has been mentioned earlier in the thread re should I go for a gen 2 CS or a CR, in this scenario though I don't mind upgrading the lower spec car because ultimately it shares the same gen 2 motor - that's my driver here.

I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer, rather just differing points of views and approaches, that is what I find so refreshing about forums such as these, we all share the passion.

Thanks again.
Regards
Rob
:cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Off the top of my head, I think the cheapest gen II CS cars are around high $40s and the cheapest CR cars are around high $50s (and good luck finding sport buckets at that price). So, I'd make a list of mods on each car and price them out. If in the end the price difference between the two is close, get the CR. If the CR is still more, get the CS. My guess is that the CS route will be cheaper and you can get one sooner and start that journey. As this will be a track car, things like color and interior don't matter, providing a lot more choices. Goods luck!
Pmonkey

Thanks for the reply.

At this point in time I am leaning towards the gen 2 CS route, I am in no immediate rush, but my mind set is to make a move later this year.

With regard to CR prices, It will be interesting to see if there is a resettlement of pricing once people know more about the GT4, it could go in any direction.

Your right about picking a car, as usual the mileage and service history will be key, however the car options won't really matter, an 09 or perhaps a 10 gen 2 CS with a standard spec would be ideal.

Cheers
Rob
:cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
Hi Trev450

Many thanks for posting.

Hopefully I didn't give the impression of droning on about the Gen 1 shortfalls, after all, the majority of people will never encounter them, and so according to a point of view an inflated picture can be portrayed, I've loved both my gen 1 CS's with only minor problems encountered - great car.

Trev, with regards to considering modding out the gen 1 the answer is yes, I've got to say I have thought long and hard about it, I was in love with the idea for quite a while, but just recently as the time is getting closer to pulling the trigger I've had my doubts, in a nutshell it's the gen 2 motor that I really want.

It's true for the difference in price between a gen 1 and a gen 2 CS I could get quite a few mods done, it's a bit like what has been mentioned earlier in the thread re should I go for a gen 2 CS or a CR, in this scenario though I don't mind upgrading the lower spec car because ultimately it shares the same gen 2 motor - that's my driver here.

I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer, rather just differing points of views and approaches, that is what I find so refreshing about forums such as these, we all share the passion.

Thanks again.
Regards
Rob
:cheers:

Hi Rob,

No impression regarding the shortfalls from me. I know exactly where you are coming from having been in the same situation myself.

I am somewhat in a different position to you, however, in that I have a dedicated track car in my Evo, and consequently only take my CS on track a couple of times a year. This doesn't prevent me from giving some thought to the fragile nature of the engine, but I try not to dwell on it too much. In addition, I have fitted an Autofarm baffled sump, low temperature thermostat and use Millers Nanotech oil, in an attempt to minimise risk. I am aware I could do more, but am preparded to take the gamble given the limited track use the car gets.

Regards,
Trev.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi Rob,

No impression regarding the shortfalls from me. I know exactly where you are coming from having been in the same situation myself.

I am somewhat in a different position to you, however, in that I have a dedicated track car in my Evo, and consequently only take my CS on track a couple of times a year. This doesn't prevent me from giving some thought to the fragile nature of the engine, but I try not to dwell on it too much. In addition, I have fitted an Autofarm baffled sump, low temperature thermostat and use Millers Nanotech oil, in an attempt to minimise risk. I am aware I could do more, but am preparded to take the gamble given the limited track use the car gets.
, a cool track car by the way
Regards,
Trev.
Trev

Yes, I can see your logic, and weighing up the pro's and the con's I think your right, in fact in your position I'd probably keep the CS as well - cool track car by the way.

Up until now my track time has been limited, and so my 2007 CS hasn't suffered from that many hours on track either, if I am honest that has been down to time and money as I have been busy getting involved in renovating my house, a hell of a lot of work, sucking everything out of me, but I am beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel and would like to get back to the track on a more regular basis once things are completed at home.

Talking cars and thinking ahead to the future keeps me going at the moment.

Regards
Rob
:cheers:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
324 Posts
Having owned a Gen 1 CS, a Gen 2 CS, and a Cayman R, I can offer some first-hand perspective. First, the overwhelming majority of people in the used market are looking for Gen 2 cars. Hence the high prices on those cars. Cayman R's are commanding an even greater premium. I believe a Cayman R is a good choice IF you can get one at a reasonable price. One benefit of the Cayman R is the suspension is capable of impressive track duty with minimal modifications. I ended up tracking my Cayman R in stock form for a while and then I sold all the R goodies, including the sport buckets, for over $13,000. My R is now stripped, caged and in full race form. If you can't find a good R at a reasonable price then get a Gen 2 CS. You won't regret it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: acropora

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Having owned a Gen 1 CS, a Gen 2 CS, and a Cayman R, I can offer some first-hand perspective. First, the overwhelming majority of people in the used market are looking for Gen 2 cars. Hence the high prices on those cars. Cayman R's are commanding an even greater premium. I believe a Cayman R is a good choice IF you can get one at a reasonable price. One benefit of the Cayman R is the suspension is capable of impressive track duty with minimal modifications. I ended up tracking my Cayman R in stock form for a while and then I sold all the R goodies, including the sport buckets, for over $13,000. My R is now stripped, caged and in full race form. If you can't find a good R at a reasonable price then get a Gen 2 CS. You won't regret it.
Jonathan

Really grateful for your post.

That's an an interesting route you took there selling out the CR goodies when you were ready to go to next level, basically you've liquidated some of the existing capital in the car and then reallocated that capital back in to the car via spec upgrades. I know that Spyder wheels and sports buckets that are in good condition are worth plenty come resale, did you manage to sell off the suspension as well?

Were you able to get enough camber in to the CR when you were tracking in stock form, or did you require the 'minimal modifications' that you speak of to achieve this?

Once again thanks for taking the time to post.

Cheers
Rob
:cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Rob, I just went through this decision. After watching cayman R values, there was a PDK car in Peridot, low miles with sport buckets and 1 owner go for 53k on ebay. There were at least 3 rennlist members I know of bidding on it, including me. I think the value of the cars with the sport buckets is mid to high 50s based on calling a few dealers with ones in inventory.

That said, I knew at the end of the day, I would want to change the following on both cars:
- LSD to a guard unit
- LCA to GT3 or RSS units
- swaybars/links
- additional PDK cooling
- upgrade the radiators
- harness bar/safety equipment

If I were to go the CS route, which I did, I would want to add at a minimum:
- Sparco or similar harness ready seats
- Damptronics or better

In the end, I can build out a better car from the CS platform for similar money to what I would have in CR. You can find 10-11 CS cars in the low 40s (40-41k), as I am an example of that. Car is loaded with PDK, PASM, Sport Chrono, LSD....

If you intend to make it a true track car like you mention, then I see no reason to start with the CR platform. You'll spend more money for parts that will eventually end up getting replaced anyway. The rarity and collectability, if you perceive one, will be gone to most buyers at that point.


Good luck in your search!
Nick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
659 Posts
Acropora

Firstly, thanks for the reply.

At the moment, it's the premium price that I would have to pay to get hold of a CR that's really making me think long and hard about going down the CS route as well. If I thought I could buy a CR and I was able to adjust the stock setup to achieve both track geo and suspension characteristics then my decision would be simple, (I'd take the CR route), the thing is I don't want to be spending a premium and then having to mod the same sort of things that I'd finish up doing on the 987.2 anyway, surely that defeats the object being as this cars future will be a track car.

With my intentions being track biased, like you say, the cash saved from buying an early 987.2 CS can be put to good use, you can afford to make some quality changes to the car and still fall inside the budget of a CR.

I like the look of the direction you have taken with your mods, initially I have a similar direction in mind.

Out of interest, have you been able to compare your car to any standard CR's out on track? and can you please expand on why having already taken steps modding your gen 2 CS you would consider a low mileage CR with buckets, would that be a budget or technical orientated decision?

Thanks again
Rob:cheers:
Rob, seams like everyone here is on the same page with this one. I went with an 09 CS for all the reasons mentioned. I also suggested a low priced, low mileage CR with bucket seats. I say this because the CR is slightly lighter, and it has more horsepower. There is also a better chance of finding one with bucket seats, which are so dam expensive when bought separately. The CR of course does very well on the track and it is difficult to compare, since we all have different skill levels. However since an inexpensive low mileage CR is a bit of a stretch to find, then it may be best to get a 987.2 CS in the color combo that you desire.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
125 Posts
With regard to CR prices, It will be interesting to see if there is a resettlement of pricing once people know more about the GT4, it could go in any direction.
Based on what 996 & 997.1 GT3s are reselling for I'd say there's only one direction used CR prices will go when the GT4 is out (especially if Porsche prices it like I think they will). I liked what Nick posted about getting a CS especially if you are going to do serious track mods. Like he said the main advantage to a CR is you can leave it reasonably stock, track it and not lose all the resale value.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
102 Posts
Off the top of my head, I think the cheapest gen II CS cars are around high $40s and the cheapest CR cars are around high $50s (and good luck finding sport buckets at that price). So, I'd make a list of mods on each car and price them out. If in the end the price difference between the two is close, get the CR. If the CR is still more, get the CS. My guess is that the CS route will be cheaper and you can get one sooner and start that journey. As this will be a track car, things like color and interior don't matter, providing a lot more choices. Goods luck!
Not quite true...I found a 2010 CS PDK for $39k with 33k miles. There's a 2009 CS PDK listed on Autotrader by me with 39k miles for $40k from a private party. I was coming from an RS that I tracked and wanted a good platform that I could turn into a full track car. After some research, a 987.2 CS was the best option. I wasn't about to pay a premium of ~$20k for a CR when I could take that $20k and do full brake upgrade, full suspension, full performance bolt-ons, tune, and 2 sets of track wheels with some spare change for some tires. I've been modding the car until I fully gut and cage it during the summer when I take a break from tracking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Rob, I just went through this decision. After watching cayman R values, there was a PDK car in Peridot, low miles with sport buckets and 1 owner go for 53k on ebay. There were at least 3 rennlist members I know of bidding on it, including me. I think the value of the cars with the sport buckets is mid to high 50s based on calling a few dealers with ones in inventory.

That said, I knew at the end of the day, I would want to change the following on both cars:
- LSD to a guard unit
- LCA to GT3 or RSS units
- swaybars/links
- additional PDK cooling
- upgrade the radiators
- harness bar/safety equipment

If I were to go the CS route, which I did, I would want to add at a minimum:
- Sparco or similar harness ready seats
- Damptronics or better

In the end, I can build out a better car from the CS platform for similar money to what I would have in CR. You can find 10-11 CS cars in the low 40s (40-41k), as I am an example of that. Car is loaded with PDK, PASM, Sport Chrono, LSD....

If you intend to make it a true track car like you mention, then I see no reason to start with the CR platform. You'll spend more money for parts that will eventually end up getting replaced anyway. The rarity and collectability, if you perceive one, will be gone to most buyers at that point.


Good luck in your search!
Nick
Nick

Many thanks for posting.

Thanks for sharing your route, and also for listing the upgrades that you had in mind prior to choosing the Gen 2 CS platform. The views that you guys are offering me are really helping to reinforce the Gen 2 CS option as my way forward.

The most important thing here is to be 100% sure exactly where my route for the car is heading, if there was doubt in my mind that the car wouldn't at some point go full track spec then I'd be better off with the CR and just track it as stock, I could have a hell of a lot of fun while not critically hurting the future value of the car. However, a track spec car is my long term objective, and as you have stated, mods would be required to either car - the CS path is now even clearer in focus, clearly this has worked for you.

Thanks again
Rob

Rob, seams like everyone here is on the same page with this one. I went with an 09 CS for all the reasons mentioned. I also suggested a low priced, low mileage CR with bucket seats. I say this because the CR is slightly lighter, and it has more horsepower. There is also a better chance of finding one with bucket seats, which are so dam expensive when bought separately. The CR of course does very well on the track and it is difficult to compare, since we all have different skill levels. However since an inexpensive low mileage CR is a bit of a stretch to find, then it may be best to get a 987.2 CS in the color combo that you desire.
acropora

The 987.2 CS looks like my baby, it definitely falls better for my predicted tracking budget.

Cheers
Rob

Not quite true...I found a 2010 CS PDK for $39k with 33k miles. There's a 2009 CS PDK listed on Autotrader by me with 39k miles for $40k from a private party. I was coming from an RS that I tracked and wanted a good platform that I could turn into a full track car. After some research, a 987.2 CS was the best option. I wasn't about to pay a premium of ~$20k for a CR when I could take that $20k and do full brake upgrade, full suspension, full performance bolt-ons, tune, and 2 sets of track wheels with some spare change for some tires. I've been modding the car until I fully gut and cage it during the summer when I take a break from tracking.
DoubleApex

The more you guys give me examples of what you have been able to do to your cars within the price differential between the CS and the CR, the more confidence I am getting regarding the 987.2 CS route.

Many thanks for your input.

Cheers
Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Guys

My initial reflex is to opt for a manual gearbox, that's probably because I am used to them and enjoy the challenge of trying to improve upon my 'Heel & Toe'. Having never driven a car without a manual box I kind of feel that I am sticking to what I know, but perhaps I am missing out on the PDK, what do you think?

I'd really value your views on this one.

How are you finding the PDK is coping with extended track use, any issues, is this an option I should be more open minded to?

If I was to select a 987.2 CS with PDK, then I am assuming a sports chrono/plus option should also be present for the more track orientated gear change map, please advise.

I've decided which platform I am going to move forward with, my next step is to do more home work on which gearbox to use, your input is welcomed regardless of which gearbox you favour, I am just trying to weigh up the Pro's and Con's under track conditions.

Thanks again
Rob:cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
102 Posts
Guys

My initial reflex is to opt for a manual gearbox, that's probably because I am used to them and enjoy the challenge of trying to improve upon my 'Heel & Toe'. Having never driven a car without a manual box I kind of feel that I am sticking to what I know, but perhaps I am missing out on the PDK, what do you think?

I'd really value your views on this one.

How are you finding the PDK is coping with extended track use, any issues, is this an option I should be more open minded to?

If I was to select a 987.2 CS with PDK, then I am assuming a sports chrono/plus option should also be present for the more track orientated gear change map, please advise.

I've decided which platform I am going to move forward with, my next step is to do more home work on which gearbox to use, your input is welcomed regardless of which gearbox you favour, I am just trying to weigh up the Pro's and Con's under track conditions.

Thanks again
Rob:cheers:
No type of overheating issues with my PDK at all (driven in Sport Plus) on the track, including this past weekend when it was about 80. I'm sure as it gets hotter I'll have to had a PDK and oil coolers though. If you do get a PDK CS, try to get one with the Sports Chrono option so you have the Sport and Sport Plus buttons. The car wakes up in Sport (can be driven on the street in this mode) and in Sport Plus (only for the track since every gear goes to redline before the shift). Go ahead and test drive both the manual and the PDK and see which you like better. You can always learn how do to left foot braking with the PDK. Good luck on your search.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,495 Posts
You say you are aware of the Gen 1's shortfalls (who isn't):) so have you considered having them modded out? I'm sure it wouldn't cost you any more than the additional amount you will have to find to upgrade to a Gen 2 and you will then have a track-ready car instead of a newer, albeit more robust un-modded car.

I should add that I have also considered doing what you are proposing, but have decided to stick with my Gen 1 and if/when it requires engine work, I shall mod it at the same time.
Trev:
Gen 1:
You can add deep sump, extra oil pump(s), Motorsports VOS, etc to a Gen 1 and get pretty close, but you still have the IMS shaft and bearing and you don't get direct ignition, so you're power will not be as strong as a Gen 2. Also, the pumps will sap some of the power that you'd have in a stock one. If you take the engine to Flat 6 or someone to make it a real race motor, well, it'll make more power but that savings you had, will be a distant memory...and you'd better not build it out beyond 3.4 or you'll be in a higher race class.

CC: I like the Gen2 CS as a base for your project. The only thing you get with a CR that you can't get with CS is the aluminum doors, deleted A/C...and not many have that, and Sport Buckets. Not so many have them either. Those red straps, you can keep. Hate em!

Where was I? Oh yeah.... If you really want to race and win, maybe the CR is worth the dough for saving a couple pounds, but otherwise, they're fashion. That won't get you far on a race track. The extra 10 HP may or may not be there when both cars are modded out. I think the difference comes down to the diameter of the stock exhausts, not sure.

Check the rules of the class you want to race in to see what mods are allowed and whether the CR is even allowed in the class.

One very big cost is Sport Bucket seats. If they're important to you, prior to going full track car, the CR starts to make more sense. I have GT2 seats in my Gen 1 CS. I love them to bits, but the cost of new ones is stratospheric. I'm not sure if they're the same as Sport Buckets, but I'm having trouble seeing much difference.

For racing, you'll want one-piece race buckets anyway, so the CS is still viable and a better bang, but if you want Sport Buckets, not many other ways to get them besides paying Suncoast or someone a lot of thousands.

Are you willing to have no A/C before you go full-track? If yes, then an R with Sport Buckets and no A/C looks a bit better.

:cheers:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Trev450
1 - 20 of 47 Posts
Top