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Perhaps. But the environment is and has definitely changed for Porsche since those arguments surfaced. Porsche hasn't won a Lemans race in 16 years now - instead they've been building tons of SUVs. .
In 1998, Porsche consciously chose to end works cars, instead supporting private teams. That’s what happens when a company is failing. The only environment that has changed is Porsche’s financial problems.

The 924/944/968 replacement, the 986 boosted sales going back from the failed front engine “replacements” to the 914 mid-engined layout. But that wasn’t enough. The Cayenne saved them. America’s love of SUVs and the fact that most of the world does not have roads saved them. It was recognized that boutique “sports cars” were disposable money cars that went first when times are tough. So now they expand to Macans and soft roading. Ask a world citizen (not a forum enthusiast) what Porsche means and it will be “SUV”.

Since 1998 the only thing has changed is a massive effort to stay alive and in doing so, works racing left until 2014. Sorry, the fact they haven’t won Le Mans since 1998 was their own choice to withdraw so this doesn’t mean much other than they quit works cars.

Corvettes are now awesome on the track and are beating 911s....so are a lot of other competitors.

Chevrolet is playing to win. Porsche is playing to protect a dying icon. I think the HP number from the GT4 is going to be very telling for Porsche's future.
Corvettes have always been “awesome” on the track and Chevy has ALWAYS played to win. Nothing has changed. Maybe you should read about Vette SCCA racing and L88 Corvettes in the 60s. It’s probably before your time. So how about the more modern works team winning GTE Pro at Le Mans? Hmm, Porsche left in 98, Corvette C5R works teams came. Isn’t that amazing timing? Here are some facts Sixteen Seasons of Corvette Racing: 1999–2014

Chevy isn’t just now “Playing to Win”, they have always played to win and the complaints about “boo hoo, my Porsche is slower than a Corvette at half the prices has”, as I explained, has existed as long as the cars have been produced. Every year, every decade, every model. Do a search in this forum about Z06 corvettes and you will see complaints from 2006.

People ALWAYS complain that with Porsche you get less power for more money, yet people buy them.

I get it that you want a cheap fast car. We all do. And I get it that you want them to “unleash” the mid-engined platform. You just don’t want to pay for it. I get that. But it’s coming and will supersede the EOL 911s in racing. Nobody wants to pay attention to it because its maybe a MY17 car (fefi).

Now I see that some dealers are asking $20K over MSRP for a GT4 allocation? Now THAT is funny. Don’t know if what people say is true or not.
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

I get it that you want a cheap fast car. We all do.

:eek::eek::eek: I can't believe I just called maybe a $90K car "cheap". I want a $30K cheap fast car :)

That's the problem with all this ridiculous pricing and getting used to $4K GPS units and $1,000 options that really cost maybe $100. Your sense of monetary proportion gets way out of whack. I guess everything is relative. I know people call a $130K GT3 a bargain and I guess a $95K GT4 might be a steal, but its not "cheap" unless compared to a $200K TT.
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

Chevrolet is playing to win. Porsche is playing to protect a dying icon. I think the HP number from the GT4 is going to be very telling for Porsche's future.
My read is different: Porsche is already slowing their cars because cars today are getting too fast to be fun on the street, and they started years ago.

Today a mid-priced sedan is as quick as a supercar from the mid '80s, but speed limits haven't changed since the 70s. Once you could use everything a top Porsche had, say a '73 RS, for a solid ten seconds in the US before risking jail time. Today you've got perhaps three seconds with your foot to the floor in a 918 before you get to the same speed. It's an exercise in frustration, an amazing party trick you can rarely use at best.

The fact is that Porsche could be competing with the Z06 on price/ performance if they chose to- drop a turbo engine in a Cayman and you're done. But if you've got a 90k car with twice the power of a Cayman, a) is that really fun for most on the street, and b) what do you do with your 150k car? That turbo Cayman would already be approaching Group B power to weight ratios, and that was shut down because the best drivers in the world couldn't handle those cars.

Faster isn't better for a street car. Porsche knows this, but customers still think it is. Thus Porsche has stopped pushing speed and started pushing elsewhere. The problem is that if you're a track or autocross junky, faster matters.

The Cayenne saved them. America’s love of SUVs and the fact that most of the world does not have roads saved them.
I'd argue that value based pricing saved them, not the Cayenne. Profit margins are reportedly up the 75% on some 911 models, and while that might be a little high, it's close. Why? Because if you're not struggling to make the fastest cars you can, you're free to make a car that's cheap and fast enough. Sharing the engine between your top models that cost 3x as much (911 Turbo S, etc) as the bottom (boxster) is a very good way to do that. The Cayenne and Macan, on the other hand, are acually much more challenging engineering problems. Making a big, fast four door that can go off road is much harder than simply making a car that's fast. Thus the SUVs actually represent a value in the Porsche lineup, especially the lower powered models. While absolute numbers mean total profits are high, profit margins are in fact much lower than with most of the sports cars.


The 924/944/968 replacement, the 986 boosted sales going back from the failed front engine “replacements” to the 914 mid-engined layout.
LOL. 286,000 cars is produced, a number the mid-engined replacement models only recently passed, is a failure?
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

Thus Porsche has stopped pushing speed and started pushing elsewhere. The problem is that if you're a track or autocross junky, faster matters.
Unfortunately, HP races always occur when the cars are cheap enough to be bought and insurance rates don’t kill the HP.


While absolute numbers mean total profits are high, profit margins are in fact much lower than with most of the sports cars.
I understand the value based POV but when you sell 50K Macans this year and 80K Macans next year and who knows how many in 2020, the percentage of sports cars will rapidly go down.

It was either in Panorama or Christophorus that an article said the Cayenne was specifically targeted at countries with no roads. The sports car market was saturated. Now they target the huge CUV market.

LOL. 286,000 cars is produced, a number the mid-engined replacement models only recently passed, is a failure?
A failure in the sense that the 924 was never accepted as a real Porsche. The 928 failed as a replacement for the 911. And the entire concept of going front engine was abandoned to go back to mid-engined. And considering they left the front engined design, I would call that failed (within the sports cars).
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

Unfortunately, HP races always occur when the cars are cheap enough to be bought and insurance rates don’t kill the HP.
Unfortunately? Depends on your perspective I guess...
I understand the value based POV but when you sell 50K Macans this year and 80K Macans next year and who knows how many in 2020, the percentage of sports cars will rapidly go down.
Sure, they make lots of money. But I disagree with the idea that SUVs are the golden goose. SUVs are a competitive market- people buying a Macan are cross shopping BMWs, Mercedes, etc. People buying 911s and Caymans are cross shopping virtually nothing, and hence Porsche is making a killing on them...
A failure in the sense that the 924 was never accepted as a real Porsche.
Some never accepted the 944 as a real Porsche, just as many didn't accept the 914, and some still don't accept the Boxster. I personally don't think that makes either of those cars a failure, do you?
The 928 failed as a replacement for the 911. And the entire concept of going front engine was abandoned to go back to mid-engined. And considering they left the front engined design, I would call that failed (within the sports cars).
The 928 was a move towards a GT, a car that's more comfortable and rounded than the purer sports cars before it. Today we've got the front-engined Panamera, Cayenne and Macan which have taken that GT concept one step further and are, as you point out, out-selling the "sports cars" by a wide margin. Meanwhile the 911 has gone from the sports car it was in the 80s to a car that's much more GT like- more comfortable, more isolated, quieter. One could call it a 928 successor in terms of philosophy.

Give this, I think it's myopic to call the "entire 928 concept abandoned". In fact it has continued, resurrected in a form most don't recognize, and it has taken over virtually the entire Porsche lineup!
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

"Ask a world citizen (not a forum enthusiast) what Porsche means and it will be “SUV”."

I'm calling bullish!t on this one.

 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

People buying 911s and Caymans are cross shopping virtually nothing,
This is a sweeping generalization and is not at all true in my household. My wife cross-shopped both above and below the 981CS price and ended-up with the 981 because that's what she wanted when all was said and done.

In my case I cross-shopped several cars well below my eventual price point and in the end Porsche had the total package for my intended use. All the other potentials were compromises in one respect or another. Maybe I'll have buyers remorse. I doubt it though. I'll let you know if I do in June after I've picked it up at the factory and driven it around the Alps a bit.

and hence Porsche is making a killing on them...
Yup. Porsche is making a killing on my household. But it ain't because we don't cross-shop.
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

I get it that you want a cheap fast car. We all do.
I've never espoused that position and those two points are not even in my top 10 "wants" in a car. If that were the case, I would get a WRX.

I am a huge fan of the brand and I don't think it serves Porsche well to build a GT4 and then detune the engine so its slower.
...and thanks for the history lessons on the SUVs and 986s. (snicker) I've been around awhile and I get it :cheers:
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

A small interruption to our regularly-scheduled program of 981 GT4 speculation: I need to provide a small historical course correction...

A failure in the sense that the 924 was never accepted as a real Porsche.
And it should not have been accepted as a real Porsche. It was a VW project that Porsche picked up after it was abandoned.

The 928 failed as a replacement for the 911.
But not because it wasn't a Porsche. The 928 failed in its mission to replace the 911 because of change of management leadership at Porsche.

And the entire concept of going front engine was abandoned to go back to mid-engined. And considering they left the front engined design, I would call that failed (within the sports cars).
Should we assume that you, sir, were just a gleam in your Daddy's eyes from 1977 to 1995 while Porsche produced the 924, 944, 968 and 928? Porsche abandoned these front-engined models because it was going broke due to poor management from top to bottom. Something had to go and it wasn't going to be the 911.


The 928 was a move towards a GT, a car that's more comfortable and rounded than the purer sports cars before it.
Actually no. That is where the 928 ended-up after new leadership at Porsche was too conservative to reinvent themselves (something that IBM was good at for decades before the 80s, but that's another story) and was too scared of the '911 cognoscenti.' They couldn't abandon the 928 so they pushed it up-market into Mercedes SL space and then jealously protected the 911 from then on. And, as we see, they are still doing it today.

The Le Mans-winning Chebby's have the same architecture as the 928. So, there's nothing wrong there...

Give this, I think it's myopic to call the "entire 928 concept abandoned". In fact it has continued, resurrected in a form most don't recognize, and it has taken over virtually the entire Porsche lineup!
Yup. We 'black sheep' of the Porsche family have been chuckling at this for a while. The 911 is now the same size and weight as the 'heavy' 928. All new Porsche's now feature a cabin architecture that is obviously the grandson of the 928's cabin. 911 (in Turbo and GT form) now has active rear-wheel steering while 'grandpa' had passive rear-wheel steering. Let's not forget that the 928 was the first car with no visible bumpers and the first 'sports' car to win European Car of the Year. I could go on, but this is supposed to be about the GT4...
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

This is a sweeping generalization and is not at all true in my household. My wife cross-shopped both above and below the 981CS price and ended-up with the 981 because that's what she wanted when all was said and done.

In my case I cross-shopped several cars well below my eventual price point and in the end Porsche had the total package for my intended use. All the other potentials were compromises in one respect or another. Maybe I'll have buyers remorse. I doubt it though. I'll let you know if I do in June after I've picked it up at the factory and driven it around the Alps a bit.


Yup. Porsche is making a killing on my household. But it ain't because we don't cross-shop.
Exactly. Before I got the 981, I seriously considered the Lotus but I definitely got the better car.

I'm working on my next purchase in 5 years. It's either going to be a 911 C4S w/aerokit or a R8. R8 is way ahead on styling and engine location.
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

I agree with your position that the cars are to fast for the road. But people are people and will always want whatever they want, regardless.

Unfortunately? Depends on your perspective I guess...
typo. Fortunately


Sure, they make lots of money. But I disagree with the idea that SUVs are the golden goose. SUVs are a competitive market- people buying a Macan are cross shopping BMWs, Mercedes, etc. People buying 911s and Caymans are cross shopping virtually nothing, and hence Porsche is making a killing on them...
PAG makes a killing on them because it’s a boutique market. But the real money is the SUVs, as evidenced by the current 67/33% ratio is generated profits. Without them, there would be no sports cars.

They are not so much cross shopping as migrating from the sports sedans and luxury SUVs. The profits roll in because a 50K and 72K SUVs are easily specced to 65 and 85K. And they sell far, far more than any 981. Those PCMs are PCMs and cameras are cameras regardless of vehicle make.

As to Making a big, fast four door that can go off road is much harder than simply making a car that's fast. Thus the SUVs actually represent a value in the Porsche lineup, especially the lower powered models.” The Macan is mostly an Audi. And Audi derived PDK (see this). https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.automobil-produktion.de/2014/02/porsche-entwicklungsvorstand-wolfgang-hatz-exklusivitaet-ist-ein-hohes-gut/&edit-text= The AWD Derived from the Carrera 4. Options are options (e.g., same PCM), and engine from a Panny. Cayenne, I believe is more difficult. Macan, not so much. Although this AWD does not appear to be FWD slip and grip as most CUVs, if a company like Subaru can make a well respected AWD, its should be nothing for Porsche to deliver the product who has been doing it for a long time. I suspect they make a fortune on these cars.

Some never accepted the 944 as a real Porsche, just as many didn't accept the 914, and some still don't accept the Boxster. I personally don't think that makes either of those cars a failure, do you?
Failure in the sense the models did not survive. Yes. The boxster is a classic sports car. Two seats, ragtop. There will always be a place for those cars, regardless of where the engine is.

The 928 was a move towards a GT, a car that's more comfortable and rounded than the purer sports cars before it. Today we've got the front-engined Panamera, Cayenne and Macan which have taken that GT concept one step further and are, as you point out, out-selling the "sports cars" by a wide margin. Meanwhile the 911 has gone from the sports car it was in the 80s to a car that's much more GT like- more comfortable, more isolated, quieter. One could call it a 928 successor in terms of philosophy.

Give this, I think it's myopic to call the "entire 928 concept abandoned". In fact it has continued, resurrected in a form most don't recognize, and it has taken over virtually the entire Porsche lineup!
Interesting POV. However, the 981CS is taller than a 991S, <.3” wider, and 4.5” shorter. Given the lack of +2, it’s a floated boat compared to two seater sports cars of the past. This I know a I have watched the two seat sports cars in my driveway grow from around 155” to the current 172”.

However, I do not disagree that the 911 has also grown substantially and I have the first hand pictures to prove that. Agreed. They are all bloated boats.

"Ask a world citizen (not a forum enthusiast) what Porsche means and it will be “SUV”."

I'm calling bullish!t on this one.
Go ask a world citizen, Joe Smoe, outside the US metro cities. Like I said, not a forum enthusiasts. Take a poll.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
GT4 Wing

So I found, by accident, a good use for huge GT4 wing. Right after the scene that looks like a copy from Jurassic Park, at 1:29. Looks like a better use than hanging laundry. ;)


But not because it wasn't a Porsche. The 928 failed in its mission to replace the 911 because of change of management leadership at Porsche.
I never said it failed because it wasn’t a Porsche. I said it failed. It doesn’t matter if management did it, the buying public, or recession. Dead is dead. It failed in its mission to replace the 911. Dead dead dead ... :(

Should we assume that you, sir, were just a gleam in your Daddy's eyes from 1977 to 1995 while Porsche produced the 924, 944, 968 and 928?
Yeah. Good call. I like that.

Porsche abandoned these front-engined models because it was going broke due to poor management from top to bottom. Something had to go and it wasn't going to be the 911.
So the replacement for the 911 died. Hmm. Sounds like failure to me. Doesn't matter why. Dead is still dead. Poor management, lousy economy, grumpy air cooled customers ... don't matter. Result is abandonment.

You sound very protective of the 928. So I have to presume you had or have one. Nothing wrong with that and it certainly made Tom Cruise famous and certainly looked really good (but I wouldn't know that because I never seen one not being alive in 77 - 95).
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

I've never espoused that position and those two points are not even in my top 10 "wants" in a car. If that were the case, I would get a WRX.

I am a huge fan of the brand and I don't think it serves Porsche well to build a GT4 and then detune the engine so its slower.
My bad read. Sorry. Well I want it cheaper. I want it as CHEAP as possible.

As to the last sentence. Lots of luck with that. :)
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

But the real money is the SUVs, as evidenced by the current 67/33% ratio is generated profits. Without them, there would be no sports cars.
First, I don't believe that there would be no sports cars. People like to say that, but Porsche's sports cars are more profitable on a per car bases than their SUVs per your stat above (what's that source, by the way?). Porsche would be smaller, less secure, more exposed to market cycles, but it would still be around and highly profitable. Porsche's trend to massive profitability started not with the introduction of the Cayenne in 2002, but with the boxster and 996 years before, and with that, the introduction of value based pricing. These cars were massively less expensive to produce than the cars before them, yet their prices didn't drop. Value rather than cost base pricing.

The Macan is mostly an Audi.
Sure parts are shared, but many parts are shared across the Cayman/ Boxster/ 911 lineup, meaning as a group the sports cars cast a large shadow. The Macan has a higher torque rated transmission, more power, more cooling, bigger brakes, tires, wheels, more interior, beefier suspension bits, etc. All that stuff costs money. The Cayman has greater use of aluminum in the body and is lower volume, largely offset as mentioned, but it's not hard to do a "should cost" analysis, and part for part the Macan's bits almost always cost more. Put another way, making a big car as quick as a small one all cost more all else being equal, and that's essentially what we've got here.
Actually no. That is where the 928 ended-up after new leadership at Porsche was too conservative to reinvent themselves
Ended up, started... It's what got delivered. And at the time, the market was less that appreciative. But Porsche largely got there eventually, incrementally, though they have kept a couple bits of the 911...
Porsche is making a killing on my household. But it ain't because we don't cross-shop.
I'm exaggerating when I say people don't cross shop, but not my much for the Porsche faithful. "There is no substitute" must be one of the greatest marketing slogans of all time...
 

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Re: Cayman GT3/GT4 Testing Complete- Production???

what's that source, by the way?
I read that and remembered 67%. Its sales

Porsche expects sales to reach 200,000 cars this year: CEO | Reuters

Macan profits, Why the Porsche Macan Is a Very Profitable SUV (VLKAY)

Avg car sold, $68K. That’s $18K in options (most cars sold are S) yet those options cost about the same as on a 911.

Porsche's trend to massive profitability started not with the introduction of the Cayenne in 2002, but with the boxster and 996 years before, and with that, the introduction of value based pricing. These cars were massively less expensive to produce than the cars before them, yet their prices didn't drop. Value rather than cost base pricing.

I said the Boxster started it the 986 boosted … The Cayenne saved them.”

Here is a good article on how the Japanese cut their spending Porsche Boxster History - HowStuffWorks No argument there.
 

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Re: GT4 Wing

The Macan is mostly an Audi.
This is not at all true. As long as 'mostly' means 'more than 50%'. I do not recall the exact number, but, I do remember reading that the percentage of shared parts between the Q5 and Macan (and the VW whateveritscalled) is on the order of 20%. It is definitely on the NOT side of mostly.

I've driven both the Q5 and the Macan in S and Turbo form. I came away from these drives with the impression that the Macan is as much more than the Q5 as the price difference would suggest.

I never said it failed because it wasn’t a Porsche. ...
And I didn't say you did. As per my original post, I was offering some minor course corrections. Just like the above.

You sound very protective of the 928.
'Protective' is not the right word. Just trying to add clarity, context, and additional information.

...and it certainly made Tom Cruise famous and ...
...is the source of "Porsche: There is no substitute."

Back on topic: I'm looking forward to how the GT4 turns out. If/when I outgrow my current track car, I might hope to find one that's been a garage queen for a few years.
 
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