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Are the two models you list available at this time? Can you even order one? Have they replaced the 911 on the showroom floor? They may eventually replace the 911 but that is no guarantee as they may be a Porsche like the 918 that is only available to the wealthy. How many Caymans and Boxsters do you see racing in the GT categories in the Le Mans series? The motor in the new 911's has been moved forward for better stability and eventually Porsche will concede to mid engine design and that was my original point. So why are you confused or are you just arguing for arguments sake?
I'm still confused. The 960/988/FeFi will be their flagship model. It will be mid-engined. They know that. It will cost more money, be faster, and I believe will be their successor to the 911RSR for teams to race in WEC.

So what's the problem? It will be everything everyone wants, a mid-engined flagship Porsche model (below the 918 and its successor halo model), and the 911 will be second tier,

So what am I missing here? The mid-engineed fans will have their dream come true. A new flagship model, above the 911 in the lineup, faster, stronger, taking over the dominate role in racing.

What else you want? :confused:
 
Discussion starter · #22 · (Edited)
Are the two models you list available at this time? Can you even order one? Have they replaced the 911 on the showroom floor? They may eventually replace the 911 but that is no guarantee as they may be a Porsche like the 918 that is only available to the wealthy.
Your two comments were:

Until Porsche accepts that mid engine cars are superior to rear engine cars

I said Porsche has always known mid-engined cars are superior. This is a fact and presented evidence for this.

Because they keep producing the 911 platform as their flagship model

I have responded to that with what I believe will happen. They are, or all signals indicate, that the 911 will be replaced (superseded) by the FeFi in terms of product placement, performance, etc. (Google it) as THE flagship sports car. It will not be a supercar or Halo car with a $1m pricetag. It will be a regular production car to compete with Ferraris, hence its internal name. Anyone will be able to buy it if they got the money. The 911 will shift down too a second tier level in terms of both prestige, performance, price, as the boxster/caymans now occupy, etc. There is a lot going on here. The end of the 991RSR racing cars needs replacement and that is where the 960 possibly fits in. It "appears" that teams no longer buy the 911RSR. So what better thing to do than give them a new mid-engined replacement race car?

I think these two points answer what your saying. Are you now saying you want the 911 to go away entirely? That would leave a huge price gap between the $70K 981 cars and the $250/300K FeFi. Why would they do that? Would that not irritate the absolutely massive 911 base of core customers? How would that be a good business plan and why would the want to lose the massive established base of wealthy customers that buy 5, 10, 15 911s in a lifetime?

By building the FeFi, it would seem to me that satisfies those who want a true, high performance mid engined car AND, at the same, time, the flagship sports car shifts to the mid-engine platform. In the meantime, the 911 base of customers can continue to get their cars. Sounds to me they know exactly what they are doing.

What else do you want?

edit. sorry. As to is it available now, you got to give them time to do the R&D and build the model. They have been talking about this for a couple of years. Entirely new models don't appear overnight. I have even heard that a big announcement is coming in the Fall. I don't know what it might be. For all i know it could be a base Macan coming to the US or maybe a new E-boxster. Who knows. But maybe it will be the announcement of the FeFi. That would be really cool :)

Exciting times are coming. Everything is getting faster. Maybe the FeFI will come with electrics to drive the front wheels. Really cool tech.
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
Wait, are you saying you want 911 performance levels for the 981 line and the 911 to be cancelled? Then you would pay 911 prices. If you want 991S performance, you will pay 991S Cabrio prices for your Boxster. If you want 991TT performance, for an equivalent 981TT performance, you will pay prices starting at 155K, just like today.

I don't know if they can even engineer the cars to do that. What it would take, how much it would cost to do the R&D, but I do know the results. PAG tried that once and failed. They would lose many, many wealthy customers who have spent decades, maybe 40 years buying 10, 15 911s. They would irritate a huge money pot of current and future dollars coming into the company. The outrage would be so massive, from monied people, IMO, they might not survive. No fiscally responsible company would ever do that as ultimately they would be held accountable to the stockholders. They exist to make profits, and willfully losing those profits, especially since they failed at it once before, would be, IMO, fiscal suicide.

OTH, IMO, building a mid-engined car ABOVE the 911 line makes perfect sense. It will make the stockholders happy and they make more money. Prices NEVER go down. They ALWAYS go up. Everyone will be happy. No one could complain.
 
The 911 brand is too valuable although Porsche will eventually accept they've squeezed out all they can from a rear engine configuration. However, it's unlikely they will ever get rid of the 911 as rear mid-engine is inherently only 2 seaters (and the rare 3 seater). There's definitely a market for a 2+2 and I don't know if a baby Panamera coupe would do it (although I'm sure there would be a market for a luxury front engine touring coupe with a Porsche badge).
 
I'm trying to imagine a mid-engine, 2+2. Take a 981, and stretch it! Weird thought. Maybe if you move the rear wheels way back...
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
... it's unlikely they will ever get rid of the 911 as rear mid-engine is inherently only 2 seaters (and the rare 3 seater). There's definitely a market for a 2+2
Here is a good article on the mid-engined Porsches The mid-engine Porsche backstory

I find it interesting that Ferry Porsche inherently knew that mid-engined is superior. This isn't brain surgery. It's as if people in 2015 think they just invented mid-engined cars and nothing existed before 2006. But he quickly abandoned it as being impractical. In the end, profit is the bottom line, hence the move to the Rear engined 356 and 2 + 2 configuration.

I think the last paragraph said it pretty good "For all the mechanical idealism of the mid-engine car and the romance of race legends like the 550 Spyder, RSK, and 917, the 911 still manages to steal more sales – and arguably, more hearts – than its more affordable mid-engine stablemates. ... Porsche would not be Porsche if it wasn't for the curious decision to hang an engine off the wrong end of a rear axle."

That sentence, about more sales (READ more profit) and more hearts than the cheaper mid-engine cars is powerful. There is a massive customer base of people who have owned many, many 911s and its the only sports car they would ever consider buying. When the customer base and potential future profits from the base is at stake, IMO, no company would ever willfully throw that profit away. If they did, they would not only be fired but ostracized from the automotive industry as morons.

If someone thinks they are just going to abandon the Golden Goose, then they are living in a dream world. But at the same time, they are not stupid and will wring every dollar of profit out of the sports car market, something they are very, very good at, by selling $250 - $300K mid-engined sports cars. It's about time they moved upscale into the exotic market.

The 911/981 profit ratios are interesting. Despite costing upwards to 4 times as much as a base 981, they make far more money on the more expensive cars. Does Toyota, Honda or any other car company sell more of their most expensive cars than the entry level models? So what is the next logical step? Make an even more expensive car. Allow it to be mid-engined. No one will argue with that. Unleash it. IMO, the monied crowd will flock to it in droves abandoning the TTS as the fastest toy. Meanwhile, the core 911 buyers, those entrenched in the $110K - $150K range won't be bothered one bit, primarly because the difference between buying a $120K car and a $300K car is pretty big, a jump many won't be able to make. But to those with the $$$$, its just another car in their stable (I really hate word).

I think its win/win all around.
 
I've heard that it costs $100Ms to establish a new nameplate, and even then it may or may not be successful. (see Ford Taurus vs. Ford 500). Unless it radically changes or sales disappear (Scirocco vs Corrado), the names will likely remain for a long time. Recall that the Carrera 2.0 was a 356! :cheers:
 
You say you are confused by what I said but it sounds to me like you understand what I said completely. Did I say I wanted the 911 to go away entirely, no, that is what you implied and not what I said so you are making an argument over your inference.
But let's say the 911 is replaced by a mid engine model and all the 911 devotees start to howl. Would it be any different than when the 911 replaced the 356? You may not have been around then but it was heresy to the Porsche owners of the time. So, yes there will be an uproar if it is replaced until the new model is shown to be superior to the 911. Will it be a mid engine model? Since the 911 is a four seater and its concept is to be a "family" sports car it is doubtful it will be replace by a mid engine car unless Porsche designs a four seater mid engine car.
You claim Porsche realizes mid engine cars are superior yet the last mid engine car they made, that was sold to the public and raced, was the 914 and production of that car stopped in what 1976? It wasn't until 20 years later that Porsche designed and manufactured a mid engine car and one could claim that it was done to stop the prospect of Porsche going bankrupt but never taken seriously by Porsche as a car fit to race. The Cayman came out as a hard top Boxster to satisfy those not enamored with a cab. It too was not taken seriously as a race car or a model to compete with the 911 until this year, nine years after it's introduction.
So yes Porsche has dabbled with mid engine cars but until recently have not really taken the concept seriously enough to make them compete with the 911. Until they are all in with mid engine tech then what I said is what I meant, until they do mid engine will be just another model to fill a hole below the 911 or as an exotic for the well heeled.

Your two comments were:

Until Porsche accepts that mid engine cars are superior to rear engine cars

I said Porsche has always known mid-engined cars are superior. This is a fact and presented evidence for this.

Because they keep producing the 911 platform as their flagship model

I have responded to that with what I believe will happen. They are, or all signals indicate, that the 911 will be replaced (superseded) by the FeFi in terms of product placement, performance, etc. (Google it) as THE flagship sports car. It will not be a supercar or Halo car with a $1m pricetag. It will be a regular production car to compete with Ferraris, hence its internal name. Anyone will be able to buy it if they got the money. The 911 will shift down too a second tier level in terms of both prestige, performance, price, as the boxster/caymans now occupy, etc. There is a lot going on here. The end of the 991RSR racing cars needs replacement and that is where the 960 possibly fits in. It "appears" that teams no longer buy the 911RSR. So what better thing to do than give them a new mid-engined replacement race car?

I think these two points answer what your saying. Are you now saying you want the 911 to go away entirely? That would leave a huge price gap between the $70K 981 cars and the $250/300K FeFi. Why would they do that? Would that not irritate the absolutely massive 911 base of core customers? How would that be a good business plan and why would the want to lose the massive established base of wealthy customers that buy 5, 10, 15 911s in a lifetime?

By building the FeFi, it would seem to me that satisfies those who want a true, high performance mid engined car AND, at the same, time, the flagship sports car shifts to the mid-engine platform. In the meantime, the 911 base of customers can continue to get their cars. Sounds to me they know exactly what they are doing.

What else do you want?

edit. sorry. As to is it available now, you got to give them time to do the R&D and build the model. They have been talking about this for a couple of years. Entirely new models don't appear overnight. I have even heard that a big announcement is coming in the Fall. I don't know what it might be. For all i know it could be a base Macan coming to the US or maybe a new E-boxster. Who knows. But maybe it will be the announcement of the FeFi. That would be really cool :)

Exciting times are coming. Everything is getting faster. Maybe the FeFI will come with electrics to drive the front wheels. Really cool tech.
 
Discussion starter · #31 · (Edited)
The Cayman came out as a hard top Boxster to satisfy those not enamored with a cab. It too was not taken seriously as a ... model to compete with the 911 until this year, nine years after it's introduction.
It's still not taken seriously as a model to compete with the 911. Read Porsche eyes entry-level GT racer - GT news - AUTOSPORT.com It's entry level to allow teams unable to pay for GT3 race cars to buy a cheaper race car. PAG needs to get teams back into buying their cars. They have abandoned them. The Cayman GT4 does not compete with the 991RSR. In the meantime, you will see Mantheny, and likely Dempsey, running 911RSR cars at Le Mans in GTE, not a Cayman.

So yes Porsche has dabbled with mid engine cars but until recently have not really taken the concept seriously enough to make them compete with the 911.
Not seeing how they compete with a 911. Certainly not in racing. Totally different class of car. Clearly not in sales. Not even close. Performance? You need to compare same production year cars, MY16 GT4 with? MY16 GT3? 991S? what? You also need to compare GT cars with GT cars and production cars with production cars.

Until they are all in with mid engine tech then what I said is what I meant, until they do mid engine will be just another model to fill a hole below the 911 or as an exotic for the well heeled.
I claim they are all in with mid engine tech and have been consistently. They have massive and extensive experience with the 906, 907, 917, 936, 956, and 962. And they will build the 960/FeFi. Which brings us full circle. It sounds to me you want 911 performance for 981 prices. That's not going to happen. If you want TT performance levels from a Cayman, they surely could build it, but you would pay $151K, stripped, to buy it.

I am still confused but give up. You want more performance? I got no issue with that at all. But bring a check book.


Edit. since I'm so confused, it just sounds to me that what you want to happen, will never happen. But for all the mid-engined enthusiasts, Porsche will likely build the FeFi, and it will be a showcase, top tier sports car, with a price to match. At least it should be less than a $400K Ford GT.
 
I'm trying to imagine a mid-engine, 2+2. Take a 981, and stretch it! Weird thought. Maybe if you move the rear wheels way back...
The Lotus Evora is a 2+2 mid-engine car. I’m not a fan of some of its styling details, but the proportions of that car are not bad, especially compared to a 911.
 
I'm trying to imagine a mid-engine, 2+2. Take a 981, and stretch it! Weird thought. Maybe if you move the rear wheels way back...
The Lotus Evora is a 2+2 mid-engine car. I’m not a fan of some of its styling details, but the proportions of that car are not bad, especially compared to a 911.
I have owned two other 2 seat sports cars that had some limited success as 2+2's, the second generation RX-7 and the Datsun/Nissan 280Z/ZX, IMHO both times the look of the car suffered.

With the 981 platform, let just no go there! :hilarious:
 
I think if the new boxer 4 does not go over well and effects the sales of the boxster/cayman they may try to refresh the concept with a new name. I am not so sure about a number since the model designations are already referred to by owners (981, 987 etc.) A formal number could make Porsche nervous as they are very conscious about stepping on the 911's toes.

There is also an issue with getting the general public sometimes to identify with a new model. They are more prone to being hit or miss than a redesign of a known model I think.

Since I want nothing to do with a turbo or a 4 I will only be owning a Boxster or Cayman in its current form. A new model would only interest me with a NA 6 in it.
My sentiments exactly!

My guess is that the next iteration of the 981 will be named named the 718, have all 4 cylinder turbo engines, and cost $10,000 more (hey, it's a new model, the 718!). BTW, the 718 convertible will be another $12,000 on top of the $10,000 increase for the coupe.

So let's enjoy our Boxsters and Caymans with NA flat sixes, while we can!
I highly doubt I will be buying a 981 turbo-4, in fact I have already told my salesman, lets hope the Spyder has a 3.8/ NA Flat-6 or I might be looking elsewhere...
 
Thanks for the pointers to the mid-sized engine 2+2s. I'll look them up.

Edit: looked it up; I LIKE the 308GT4. But remember, I also like the 914.
 
Chows4us you keep putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. I guess it is a form of debate but in the long run doesn't hold water. I don't want anything from Porsche nor would I ever surmise to tell them what to do. I'm fully aware that Porsche has produced some fine mid engine racing cars but their offerings, to the public in mid engine, have been half hearted at best until recently with the Cayman GT4. My original statement, which you tried to define, was in regard to the original question about the Cayman/Boxster badging and my offering, which is just as valid as yours given we do not know what Porsche will do, is that the flagship model for Porsche will eventually morph into a mid engine model if Porsche accepts that mid engine technology is superior to rear engine.
I guess we are just going to have to dub you Sir Confused as you seem to have tried to make an issue of someone else's opinion without really thinking about what they said and how it related to the original question. I agree with you on many things you have said and many of them reinforce what I was saying and that is that Porsche will not have a flagship model that is mid engine until they are convinced it is the right thing to do and will sell as well as the 911.
It's still not taken seriously as a model to compete with the 911. Read Porsche eyes entry-level GT racer - GT news - AUTOSPORT.com It's entry level to allow teams unable to pay for GT3 race cars to buy a cheaper race car. PAG needs to get teams back into buying their cars. They have abandoned them. The Cayman GT4 does not compete with the 991RSR. In the meantime, you will see Mantheny, and likely Dempsey, running 911RSR cars at Le Mans in GTE, not a Cayman.



Not seeing how they compete with a 911. Certainly not in racing. Totally different class of car. Clearly not in sales. Not even close. Performance? You need to compare same production year cars, MY16 GT4 with? MY16 GT3? 991S? what? You also need to compare GT cars with GT cars and production cars with production cars.



I claim they are all in with mid engine tech and have been consistently. They have massive and extensive experience with the 906, 907, 917, 936, 956, and 962. And they will build the 960/FeFi. Which brings us full circle. It sounds to me you want 911 performance for 981 prices. That's not going to happen. If you want TT performance levels from a Cayman, they surely could build it, but you would pay $151K, stripped, to buy it.

I am still confused but give up. You want more performance? I got no issue with that at all. But bring a check book.


Edit. since I'm so confused, it just sounds to me that what you want to happen, will never happen. But for all the mid-engined enthusiasts, Porsche will likely build the FeFi, and it will be a showcase, top tier sports car, with a price to match. At least it should be less than a $400K Ford GT.
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
.... Porsche will not have a flagship model that is mid engine until they are convinced it is the right thing to do and will sell as well as the 911.
Maybe we are saying the same thing because I AM saying they will have a mid-engined flagship model. It WILL sell as well as the 911 (the monied will jump all over it). It WILL be mid-engined. And they are working on it right now. It will be called whatever they call it but, for now, the rumor mill is the name is FeFI/960/988. Nobody knows the final name.

peace
 
Maybe we are saying the same thing because I AM saying they will have a mid-engined flagship model. It WILL sell as well as the 911 (the monied will jump all over it). It WILL be mid-engined. And they are working on it right now. It will be called whatever they call it but, for now, the rumor mill is the name is FeFI/960/988. Nobody knows the final name.

peace
But where will the kids sit? Behind the engine?
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
Chows4us you keep putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. I guess it is a form of debate but in the long run doesn't hold water. I don't want anything from Porsche nor would I ever surmise to tell them what to do. I'm fully aware that Porsche has produced some fine mid engine racing cars but their offerings, to the public in mid engine, have been half hearted at best until recently with the Cayman GT4. My original statement, which you tried to define, was in regard to the original question about the Cayman/Boxster badging and my offering, which is just as valid as yours given we do not know what Porsche will do, is that the flagship model for Porsche will eventually morph into a mid engine model if Porsche accepts that mid engine technology is superior to rear engine.
I guess we are just going to have to dub you Sir Confused as you seem to have tried to make an issue of someone else's opinion without really thinking about what they said and how it related to the original question. I agree with you on many things you have said and many of them reinforce what I was saying and that is that Porsche will not have a flagship model that is mid engine until they are convinced it is the right thing to do and will sell as well as the 911.


The very first Porsche prototype, the 356/1, was a mid-engine, two-seat roadster that exploited the obvious benefits of having the engine in the middle – mass centralization, a lower polar moment of inertia and balanced weight distribution. But following the 356/1, Ferry Porsche soon realized that his dream car's impractical layout might hamper its commercial success. Taking real world realities like rear seats, interior volume, and storage capacity into consideration, he moved the engine behind the rear axle with the 356/2 Gmünd coupe in 1948, which was followed by nearly two decades of 356s that culminated in 1965 in the first 911.
I know that for most the 911's rear seat is not practical, but for others with a young family, the rear seat is an important consideration. I would expect that if Porsche could have figured out a way to keep its rear seat with a mid-engine layout they would have done that many decades ago.
 
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