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I took my 981 in for service today and had the opportunity to observe a Porsche Tech perform a quick checkup on my car. (actually I strapped him to a chair, put a spot light on him and started the interrogation and waterboarding session). Originally, this was just a Service Department promotion to observe the Tech do a quick Jiffy Lube like checkup…..but I asked to see the over-rev report which required the PIWIS to be hooked up. He obliged…. That led to about a million questions and the entire Vehicle Analysis Log being emailed to me – 95 pages of ecstasy (for me at least). In order for the tech to review the data, he has to send it to Germany and then download it from a PCNA tech web site. (I guess that ensures that Stuttgart and PCNA have visibility on each analysis)

You would not believe what is recorded in our cars. Some examples (and this is just the tip of the iceberg): I was doing some testing about 15 months ago to see what speed the interlock was set at for the frunk. Obviously, Porsche would not want you to inadvertently open the frunk at speed so I was just curious. It was about 2mph BTW. But the car recorded the event because I had it open while moving. It also recorded the number of misfire events by cylinder (I was surprised the number was greater than zero), number of times my spoiler went up and down (not just # of times but number of “steps”), date and exact time that I installed the smart top (only because I got several fault codes when I did that), the flow duration of each air bag deployment event – I’m not kidding – in micoseconds (obviously 0 for my car). The amount of data recorded is just amazing. More examples: It also has recorded current items such as the volume setting for phone, sun intensity (right and left side of car), date of actual build, the % each window is open. I could go on and on for an hour and 95 pages but there is just so much data – this is just the tip of the iceberg – wow! I now want to be a Porsche engineer. I am going to be reading this report for weeks.

I also had 686 operating hours recorded so far. That equates to $119/hr for my build and that number is only going to go down (not including gas) – a friggin bargin for the amount of pleasure I have received from this car! Surprisingly, I had no over-revs at any level. I thought I had bounced it off the rev limiter about 12 months ago which was why I was asking for the report in the first place.

I was going to post the 95 pages of the pdf file on P9. However, it is clear from the content of the report that this information is proprietary and the tech didn’t know any better not to email it to me. I didn’t want to get him or the dealership in trouble. I mean, Porsche probably doesn’t even have a policy (or they don’t train their techs and staff) to not share this information. Porsche wouldn’t expect a customer to ask for this log anyway right? Lawyers would love to get a hold of this information….but I’m just a nuclear engineering geek with no malice. lol
 

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I took my 981 in for service today and had the opportunity to observe a Porsche Tech perform a quick checkup on my car. (actually I strapped him to a chair, put a spot light on him and started the interrogation and waterboarding session). Originally, this was just a Service Department promotion to observe the Tech do a quick Jiffy Lube like checkup…..but I asked to see the over-rev report which required the PIWIS to be hooked up. He obliged…. That led to about a million questions and the entire Vehicle Analysis Log being emailed to me – 95 pages of ecstasy (for me at least). In order for the tech to review the data, he has to send it to Germany and then download it from a PCNA tech web site. (I guess that ensures that Stuttgart and PCNA have visibility on each analysis)

You would not believe what is recorded in our cars. Some examples (and this is just the tip of the iceberg): I was doing some testing about 15 months ago to see what speed the interlock was set at for the frunk. Obviously, Porsche would not want you to inadvertently open the frunk at speed so I was just curious. It was about 2mph BTW. But the car recorded the event because I had it open while moving. It also recorded the number of misfire events by cylinder (I was surprised the number was greater than zero), number of times my spoiler went up and down (not just # of times but number of “steps”), date and exact time that I installed the smart top (only because I got several fault codes when I did that), the flow duration of each air bag deployment event – I’m not kidding – in micoseconds (obviously 0 for my car). The amount of data recorded is just amazing. More examples: It also has recorded current items such as the volume setting for phone, sun intensity (right and left side of car), date of actual build, the % each window is open. I could go on and on for an hour and 95 pages but there is just so much data – this is just the tip of the iceberg – wow! I now want to be a Porsche engineer. I am going to be reading this report for weeks.

I also had 686 operating hours recorded so far. That equates to $119/hr for my build and that number is only going to go down (not including gas) – a friggin bargin for the amount of pleasure I have received from this car! Surprisingly, I had no over-revs at any level. I thought I had bounced it off the rev limiter about 12 months ago which was why I was asking for the report in the first place.

I was going to post the 95 pages of the pdf file on P9. However, it is clear from the content of the report that this information is proprietary and the tech didn’t know any better not to email it to me. I didn’t want to get him or the dealership in trouble. I mean, Porsche probably doesn’t even have a policy (or they don’t train their techs and staff) to not share this information. Porsche wouldn’t expect a customer to ask for this log anyway right? Lawyers would love to get a hold of this information….but I’m just a nuclear engineering geek with no malice. lol

How is the information about what you've done with YOUR car somehow Porsche's property? I suppose they could lay claim to a copyright in the specific format in which the information is displayed but not the information itself. So you could certainly share the raw data, maybe just not in the pretty Porsche formatting of whatever report they generated from your data. BTW Porsche also has GPS data on all your events too, so they know where you were when you installed your SmartTOP! :) I actually covered this in a post a few years ago after talking to a Porsche engineer who shared with me the kinds/type of data they can and do collect from our cars.
 

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How is the information about what you've done with YOUR car somehow Porsche's property?
Guessing here. They gathered the data with their software. That software is likely proprietary and that might be what he is talking about. But not the data itself as you noted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
How is the information about what you've done with YOUR car somehow Porsche's property? I suppose they could lay claim to a copyright in the specific format in which the information is displayed but not the information itself. So you could certainly share the raw data, maybe just not in the pretty Porsche formatting of whatever report they generated from your data. BTW Porsche also has GPS data on all your events too, so they know where you were when you installed your SmartTOP! :) I actually covered this in a post a few years ago after talking to a Porsche engineer who shared with me the kinds/type of data they can and do collect from our cars.
Look at it from Porsche's perspective. If you saw all the information that is being recorded, you would be shocked as I was. Just the type of information that is being gathered is VERY informative and insightful to educated minds. Most of the data is obviously for troubleshooting...but even in the Porsche foreman's words is well beyond his knowledge and is analyzed by Porsche engineers. For example, the current that is being drawn by my seat heaters is recorded. Really? I'm sure the spoiler operations cycles that is recorded is designed to understand the mean time between failures for this equipment that is used for future reliability improvements etc.

I thought what was very interesting is the data recorded related to future litigation. For example, air bag deployment rate and time, g forces during crash impact etc. If I was a lawyer and some numb skull was trying to sue my company because he drove his Carrera GT into a tree and then tried to blame my car.....I would have a frickin field day.

The parameters that are being recorded is clearly proprietary. It's a competitive advantage to record certain parameters to protect the company from future litigation, assist in product improvement, timely repairs, diagnosis of pending failures, etc. The list is endless. Having seen the data, there is no way, I would want competitors to have this information. It's not about the value of the parameter that is recorded for my car, but the actual list of parameters that Porsche sees value in measuring in the first place. This is what is interesting which is obviously not properly controlled by the techs/dealers.
 

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Not surprised at all. Manufacturers have been logging operational data for a few years now. It's sort of like a blackbox for cars. And all this info can be presented in court as evidence for or against you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Keep in mind that the raw data would look like:

"00 C3 12 F2 A7 04 70 1F9 ...... etc...."
It's not in code. It is in clear English. It list the parameter nomenclature on the left and the data on the right. It has a lot of equipment data that the car was built with...pages...each module (and there are tons of them) have a software revision listed for example and data associated with each module. It must all be stored in some other master module that is downloaded by PIWIS. Its obviously a generic template for the software because it contains GT4 specific parameters too that all read NA for my print out.
 

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I took my 981 in for service today and had the opportunity to observe a Porsche Tech perform a quick checkup on my car. (actually I strapped him to a chair, put a spot light on him and started the interrogation and waterboarding session). Originally, this was just a Service Department promotion to observe the Tech do a quick Jiffy Lube like checkup…..but I asked to see the over-rev report which required the PIWIS to be hooked up. He obliged…. That led to about a million questions and the entire Vehicle Analysis Log being emailed to me – 95 pages of ecstasy (for me at least). In order for the tech to review the data, he has to send it to Germany and then download it from a PCNA tech web site. (I guess that ensures that Stuttgart and PCNA have visibility on each analysis)

You would not believe what is recorded in our cars. Some examples (and this is just the tip of the iceberg): I was doing some testing about 15 months ago to see what speed the interlock was set at for the frunk. Obviously, Porsche would not want you to inadvertently open the frunk at speed so I was just curious. It was about 2mph BTW. But the car recorded the event because I had it open while moving. It also recorded the number of misfire events by cylinder (I was surprised the number was greater than zero), number of times my spoiler went up and down (not just # of times but number of “steps”), date and exact time that I installed the smart top (only because I got several fault codes when I did that), the flow duration of each air bag deployment event – I’m not kidding – in micoseconds (obviously 0 for my car). The amount of data recorded is just amazing. More examples: It also has recorded current items such as the volume setting for phone, sun intensity (right and left side of car), date of actual build, the % each window is open. I could go on and on for an hour and 95 pages but there is just so much data – this is just the tip of the iceberg – wow! I now want to be a Porsche engineer. I am going to be reading this report for weeks.

I also had 686 operating hours recorded so far. That equates to $119/hr for my build and that number is only going to go down (not including gas) – a friggin bargin for the amount of pleasure I have received from this car! Surprisingly, I had no over-revs at any level. I thought I had bounced it off the rev limiter about 12 months ago which was why I was asking for the report in the first place.

I was going to post the 95 pages of the pdf file on P9. However, it is clear from the content of the report that this information is proprietary and the tech didn’t know any better not to email it to me. I didn’t want to get him or the dealership in trouble. I mean, Porsche probably doesn’t even have a policy (or they don’t train their techs and staff) to not share this information. Porsche wouldn’t expect a customer to ask for this log anyway right? Lawyers would love to get a hold of this information….but I’m just a nuclear engineering geek with no malice. lol
A recent submarine Captain's dream for sure - great get Subshooter.

And I can see the PM's flooding you "in box".

So here is 1st outside Q for you. Something to keep you further occupied when "Daisy" can not get out for a run.

Does Porsche have a record of engine RPMs with a real time "odometer" stamp? Such being related to debated 981 PCNA BREAK IN issue of not exceeding so-called 4200 ?? RPMs for first 2,000 miles.

I was advised by my Dealer Service Mgr that they could not do this. But with 95 pages of data maybe they even know if you occasionally have a Starbucks within the cabin and when.;)

:cheers:
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
A recent submarine Captain's dream for sure - great get Subshooter.

And I can see the PM's flooding you "in box".

So here is 1st outside Q for you. Something to keep you further occupied when "Daisy" can not get out for a run.

Does Porsche have a record of engine RPMs with a real time "odometer" stamp? Such being related to debated 981 PCNA BREAK IN issue of not exceeding so-called 4200 ?? RPMs for first 2,000 miles.

I was advised by my Dealer Service Mgr that they could not do this. But with 95 pages of data maybe they even know if you occasionally have a Starbucks within the cabin and when.;)

:cheers:
Great question. I have yet to read the whole 95 pages but at first glance I think not but let me check. I've only been reading it over my iPhone while having a beer at a bar. lol. The pdf file lends itself to quick word searches. I will get back to you.

Edit: Just did a quick word search for rpm. They meaure current rpm (0 in my case) and they measure number of instance of AC compressor rpm during "run in" when > 1500 rpm. And nominal engine rpm speed. Mine was 1504 which I guess is average engine speed during the operating life? Can you believe all this data?

I saw no data related to the 4200 rpm limit. That is a fictitious limit anyway....lol
 
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The parameters that are being recorded is clearly proprietary. It's a competitive advantage to record certain parameters to protect the company from future litigation, assist in product improvement, timely repairs, diagnosis of pending failures, etc. The list is endless. Having seen the data, there is no way, I would want competitors to have this information. It's not about the value of the parameter that is recorded for my car, but the actual list of parameters that Porsche sees value in measuring in the first place. This is what is interesting which is obviously not properly controlled by the techs/dealers.
This is likely a main basis for Porsche to argue proprietary rights. Another basis might be the preciseness of the actual data because it may reveal techniques or capabilities.

The biggest problem I have with this is that it is a feature that is most likely only available to Porsche and so used only for its benefit. Porsche may use it to help in diagnosis or repair of a car, but imagine the possibility where the info suggests (or supports an argument of) a Porsche problem. I doubt Porsche would be willing to readily share that info.

And imagine you are in an accident with another Porsche driver where the data from his/her car would be helpful to you. Is Porsche going to be helpful to you by helping you get it?
 

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This is likely a main basis for Porsche to argue proprietary rights. Another basis might be the preciseness of the actual data because it may reveal techniques or capabilities.

The biggest problem I have with this is that it is a feature that is most likely only available to Porsche and so used only for its benefit. Porsche may use it to help in diagnosis or repair of a car, but imagine the possibility where the info suggests (or supports an argument of) a Porsche problem. I doubt Porsche would be willing to readily share that info.

And imagine you are in an accident with another Porsche driver where the data from his/her car would be helpful to you. Is Porsche going to be helpful to you by helping you get it?

The long and short of it is that the Feds are way behind in how to handle this data, while on one hand there are requirements for manufacturers to share data so that 3rd party shops can service cars the manufacturers always argue the loophole that the data in question isn't necessary to provider proper service and is only needed by the manufacturer. This, of course, completely ignores the privacy issues surrounding what data is being gathered and how. I suppose at some point there will be a lawsuit over all of this and we will get some case on point, but until then I'd say just enjoy your report and the data it contains, no need to upload your 90+ page PDF file here, people can contact you privately if they have questions about what sort of data is in the report or they can go down to their local dealer and get their own report on their own car. (I have a report on my car from a few years ago and the 987's don't gather as much data as the 981's do).

So if you don't trust Porsche to be forthright with the data about their cars or provide it in the case of an accident caused by some other Porsche owner, how do you expect Apple to treat all the biometric data they are gathering from people wearing Apple watches? You can imagine where this is all leading Big Data = Little Privacy (I need to trademark that phrase)
 

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Thanks for posting, but I'm sorry, this should not be legal or there should at least be a user option to disable it. I hope Fruit of the Loom isn't recording similar private information from my underwear. It's my friggin car! No one should have a right to record everything that I do with it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks for posting, but I'm sorry, this should not be legal or there should at least be a user option to disable it. I hope Fruit of the Loom isn't recording similar private information from my underwear. It's my friggin car! No one should have a right to record everything that I do with it!
I'm actually ok with this being legal but I recognize that there are many different view points that are just as valid. Most of the data is there to help Porsche diagnose a problem or learn what is causing failures so that they can improve upon future equipment reliability. Obviously the contentious part is recording information that will help them in future litigation. Why is it ok that Paul Walker's estate sues Porsche because of his poor choices and driving habits? And this Nick guy: Nick Murray's problematic Porsche 911 shows the power of a viral video I am having serious doubts about his credibility now that I know what is recorded. Porsche would have known exactly what the problem was IMO. I think when Porsche knows they messed up like in this thread: http://www.planet-9.com/981-cayman-...year-old-cayman-needs-engine-replacement.html, they fix it without much fuss. With Nick, they obviously fought it until social media beat them down.

We don't have to take our cars to a Porsche dealer and have them download the data. That is a choice we make. We still have our privacy.
 
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Great question. I have yet to read the whole 95 pages but at first glance I think not but let me check. I've only been reading it over my iPhone while having a beer at a bar. lol. The pdf file lends itself to quick word searches. I will get back to you.

Edit: Just did a quick word search for rpm. They meaure current rpm (0 in my case) and they measure number of instance of AC compressor rpm during "run in" when > 1500 rpm. And nominal engine rpm speed. Mine was 1504 which I guess is average engine speed during the operating life? Can you believe all this data?

I saw no data related to the 4200 rpm limit. That is a fictitious limit anyway....lol
:thanks: for checking.

I just thought such data if real (there) could add fuel or foam to the BREAK IN fire that's sometimes rages herein.:gossip:
A little early to be in a bar maybe???? :hilarious: Enjoy whenever you can for sure.

Again thanks SS.

:cheers:
 

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I'm not surprised that this amount of data is available for our cars. My concern is that as K Man points out, the federal (and state) laws haven't kept up with the implications of all this information being available. Personally I would not be comfortable with a requirement that this level of information be provided to 3rd parties. My BMW even calls my dealer and tells them what items need to be serviced on my car, the dealer then reaches out to me to proactively schedule a service appointment. Convenient? Yes. But the smart minds on this forum can see how something like this could go sideways in Big Brother's hands. (And incidentally, about a year ago the BMW told the dealer it was time for brake pads to be replaced. When I got the car in and they looked at it, the pads were well within spec and it turned out there was a software bug that triggered the notice for that repair item early. Hubby still gets far too much entertainment from the whole concept and can't refrain from smart-alec comments like "did the car also order you a latte for your wait while it's being serviced?")
 

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We don't have to take our cars to a Porsche dealer and have them download the data. That is a choice we make. We still have our privacy.
This is good as long as the data isn't automatically reported back to P similar to the BMW situation for Debcoop109. One of the reasons I stay away from built in car electronics that transmit out.

And I really doubt that either the Feds or states will tackle data like this when there is the much bigger issue of info thru our computers and cell phones. Those companies get to claim it was voluntary on our part, even though so many of them monetize the info. I suppose the intersect is in those internet connected cars, but even there I suspect car makers will quietly lobby to be left out of any rules.
 

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Personally I would not be comfortable with a requirement that this level of information be provided to 3rd parties.
I completely agree.

Unfortunately, the presence of this kind of data and the lack of rules means at least two things. First this stuff will likely be in the domain of savvy personal injury lawyers fighting of high value car accidents. The actual details of the uses will probably not be public due to settlements.

Second will be savvy district attorneys in high profile criminal car accidents. Imagine something like a celebrity killing/injuring others in a car accident that has criminal issues (like road rage). While rare, a DA can compelling the data, and the lack of rules means nothing is in the way.

This is a little like the dash cam issue. The Russian videos are a lot of fun. But having one in the US means having it potentially used against you in an accident.
 

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