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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
In the January 2010 issue Eddie Alterman's Editor's Letter states the following in looking at 3 cars that he thought would have made 10 Best:

(Porsche 911 Carrera) ..."I thought it would be a shoo-in for a spot on the list. Not so. The Boxster/Cayman duo beat it with a combination of value, poise, and - dare I say it - higher levels of driving enjoyment. Technical editor Aaron Robinson even trotted out this question, one that's been in circulation nearly since the car's debut: Is the 911 at the end of its run? There's a Panamera coupe on the horizon that is bound to steal the 911's older, more comfort-oriented customers. And the Cayman, with its finer balance born of its mid-engine layout, is the better driver's car."

I found that very interesting though the idea of the Boxster/Cayman being the better drivers car is something that most of us have know for a while. :)

Take a look at Upfront on page 26. Looks like the VW brass are going to push to double Porsche's sales to 150k units and one of the new vehicles they suggest is the baby Boxster. Looks like things will be a changn'.
 

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Yeah, I also just read these comments the other day. I imagine the baby boxster will be a 4 banger but don't recall if they stated in the article. The Panamera coupe was interesting looking but it looks like something that needs to be seen in person...the sketch looked a little odd (but I guess that is the Panamera). I didn't care for the mini SUV called the Roxster and don't care much for the name either.

I just hope the new lineup doesn't water down the brand. If they are trying to catch more market share by producing a model in the 30-40k range...I worry about cutting corners to meet a certain price point.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
For the Porsche model they are looking to use a twin turbo 4 @ 300hp. The VW, SEAT, and Skoda roadster will have 120 to 200hp gas engines. I guess this is all working toward a goal of platform sharing among brands.
 

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Yeah, I also just read these comments the other day. I imagine the baby boxster will be a 4 banger but don't recall if they stated in the article. The Panamera coupe was interesting looking but it looks like something that needs to be seen in person...the sketch looked a little odd (but I guess that is the Panamera). I didn't care for the mini SUV called the Roxster and don't care much for the name either.

I just hope the new lineup doesn't water down the brand. If they are trying to catch more market share by producing a model in the 30-40k range...I worry about cutting corners to meet a certain price point.
Did I read that VW plans to axe the Panamera and Cayenne from the Porsche line-up and focus on real sports cars? I think Cayenne is about half of Porsche sales in the US. I'm not an SUV guy, but I think the Cayenne is one of the nicest looking SUVs around. The Turbo has to be the fastest. I've heard they have some mechanical/electrical issues now and then, but I don't know much about what the problems are or if they've been fixed. They should fix and keep the Cayenne for economic reasons. People around here seem to want them and buy them. They don't make much sense to me, but I don't mind seening them on the road.

I have to say that I think the Panamera is just plain ugly on the outside and I dont' think it will sell well. I think it will become a Porsche orphan like the 928 and resale value will be really low....so much expensive complications to break and low sales numbers makes for a bad used car buy. They tried too hard to make this biggish sedan look like one of the world's best looking coupes. It didn't work.

Panamera reminds me of the 12 cylinder and 2+2 XKEs. They took a grand thing (Series I and II in the case of the Jag and 911 in the case of Porsche) and made it much less by trying to force the dimensions.

I know the Panamera is a technical marvel and the interiors are fit for emperors, but it doesn't even look as good as a Jensen Interceptor on the outside. I'm thinking more AMC Marlin. You can only do so much with great paint, 19" wheels and superb fit and finish. The rest has to come from stylists. I think they got outvoted. I do not see the Panamera becoming a cult classic ever. It just looks overstuffed, claustrophobic and isolated to me...not a very fun car, and you don't need to be Robert Cumberford to know that the proportions are wrong on this beast. That's why "Photos don't do it justice, you just have to see it in person". This sounds suspiciously like Bangle when he started explaining his 7 Series BMW design philosophy. If you have to explain....

I imagine if you shell out 150 large for one, you'll come to "appreciate" the styling a bit more than normal people like myself, but eventually you'll rediscover what you knew the first time you saw it... that this "emperor" has no clothes.

While I will probably never buy another 911 because of the engine placement, I respect the great engineering that's been done to maximize its abilities and the truly beautiful evolutionary styling that's gone on over the years. Each new one is more beautiful and more capable than the last. Long live 911.

One wouldn't have to go far to find a prettier car than the Panamera. Performance or not, looks counts to Porsche buyers. The concept of making a 4 door supercar from Cayenne bits is a good one, but the body on this car is just so wrong. I'm sure Porsche poured mountains of money at the development of this car. I think it's a "forest for the trees" sort of thing going on.

Designers are their own worst enemies sometimes...BMW had Bangle wrecking their car lines for 10 years. I hope Porsche recovers from this mistake quicker.

Remember the S Class Merc that weighed so much you couldn't legally put 4 people in it? Remember the 7 series "Bangle Butt" and the first I-Drive nightmare?

Porsche has had their moments as well over the years. Houndstooth seats and baby poo brown paint schemes of the 70's come to mind. I just think a new car like this with all the money they've spent on the innards should look a whole lot better than this Panamera does.
 

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Did I read that VW plans to axe the Panamera and Cayenne from the Porsche line-up and focus on real sports cars?
There was something about ending the Cayenne and the Panamera at the end of their product cycles. Since the Panamera is new, maybe that would be in 7 or 14 years.
 

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A Panamera coupe would definitely dig into 911 sales I would think.
 

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hopefully it would dig into Merc SL, and BMW 6-series more.

I have a feeling it won't be called "too small", and hopefully worthy of succeeding the long past 928.
 

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Did I read that VW plans to axe the Panamera and Cayenne from the Porsche line-up and focus on real sports cars? I think Cayenne is about half of Porsche sales in the US. I'm not an SUV guy, but I think the Cayenne is one of the nicest looking SUVs around. The Turbo has to be the fastest. I've heard they have some mechanical/electrical issues now and then, but I don't know much about what the problems are or if they've been fixed. They should fix and keep the Cayenne for economic reasons. People around here seem to want them and buy them. They don't make much sense to me, but I don't mind seening them on the road.

I have to say that I think the Panamera is just plain ugly on the outside and I dont' think it will sell well. I think it will become a Porsche orphan like the 928 and resale value will be really low....so much expensive complications to break and low sales numbers makes for a bad used car buy. They tried too hard to make this biggish sedan look like one of the world's best looking coupes. It didn't work.

Panamera reminds me of the 12 cylinder and 2+2 XKEs. They took a grand thing (Series I and II in the case of the Jag and 911 in the case of Porsche) and made it much less by trying to force the dimensions.

I know the Panamera is a technical marvel and the interiors are fit for emperors, but it doesn't even look as good as a Jensen Interceptor on the outside. I'm thinking more AMC Marlin. You can only do so much with great paint, 19" wheels and superb fit and finish. The rest has to come from stylists. I think they got outvoted. I do not see the Panamera becoming a cult classic ever. It just looks overstuffed, claustrophobic and isolated to me...not a very fun car, and you don't need to be Robert Cumberford to know that the proportions are wrong on this beast. That's why "Photos don't do it justice, you just have to see it in person". This sounds suspiciously like Bangle when he started explaining his 7 Series BMW design philosophy. If you have to explain....

I imagine if you shell out 150 large for one, you'll come to "appreciate" the styling a bit more than normal people like myself, but eventually you'll rediscover what you knew the first time you saw it... that this "emperor" has no clothes.

While I will probably never buy another 911 because of the engine placement, I respect the great engineering that's been done to maximize its abilities and the truly beautiful evolutionary styling that's gone on over the years. Each new one is more beautiful and more capable than the last. Long live 911.

One wouldn't have to go far to find a prettier car than the Panamera. Performance or not, looks counts to Porsche buyers. The concept of making a 4 door supercar from Cayenne bits is a good one, but the body on this car is just so wrong. I'm sure Porsche poured mountains of money at the development of this car. I think it's a "forest for the trees" sort of thing going on.

Designers are their own worst enemies sometimes...BMW had Bangle wrecking their car lines for 10 years. I hope Porsche recovers from this mistake quicker.

Remember the S Class Merc that weighed so much you couldn't legally put 4 people in it? Remember the 7 series "Bangle Butt" and the first I-Drive nightmare?

Porsche has had their moments as well over the years. Houndstooth seats and baby poo brown paint schemes of the 70's come to mind. I just think a new car like this with all the money they've spent on the innards should look a whole lot better than this Panamera does.
Yes you read that, Automobile magazine a couple issues ago described the reason and outcomes for the Porsche/VW saga and now the VW is in charge they are not extending either the panamera(7 years remaining) or the Cayenne (4 years remaining). In addition they are not going to do any big SUVs so the Q7 and the Toureg will go bye bye as well. A new smaller porsche SUV (crossover) will be coming that will be based on the Q5 chasis. Possibly called the "roxster" as wel as a smaller roadster based on the audi/vw/porsche "bluesport" concept presented previously. I can't remember which month issue it is but its with one with the mclaren F1 replacement on the cover.
 

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I do not want Porsches to metastasize. Some exclusivity is important for these cars, IMHO. If VW goes that route , then I think in the medium-to- long term it will really hurt the brand.
 

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Sixisenuff.Well put.Your take on the Panamera is spot on,but if VW have there way it will not matter.Boy i wonder how much money Porsche spent on this white elephants developement? Will they (VW/Porsche) re-coup the investment?...........
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I agree that the Panamera looks need beer goggles; has a little AMC Pacer in its rear that's for sure. :eek:
The only good points that I took out of the article were that it looks like management is going to use more state of the art technology in the Porsche line. They thought the Panamera and Cayenne were too heavy and needed to use lighter weight materials. They also wanted the 911 to evolve more quickly with the newest technology. Dunno what the big picture holds but I hope they don't mess with the mid-engined design of the Cayman/Boxster.
 

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I do not want Porsches to metastasize. Some exclusivity is important for these cars, IMHO. If VW goes that route , then I think in the medium-to- long term it will really hurt the brand.
Couldn't agree more.

Some of the rumors around the industry are saying Porsche might be going down market...

H4 Turbos, instead of H6s... smaller, badge-engineered cars shared with VW or Audi... Which has been neither great, nor truly tragic for Porsche in the past.

Rumors of the VW BlueSport concept car spawning Audi and Porsche variants... I hope not.

Leave the transverse inline vertical engines and offset gearboxes to the VW and Audi R4 rumors. Leave it to Toyota powered Lotuses. Leave Porsches to the folks who love boxers and longitudinal drivetrains.

I own a Subaru with a turbo 4-cyl boxer. I love it. That doesn't mean it is Porsche material.

And I also agree, watering down the Porsche crest too far down market is gonna be a negative move for the brand's image and reputation.

I was and am not a fan of the Cayenne. I like the premise of the Panamera, and mechanically it seems fantastic, but stylistically, the roof is wrong, and it ruins the flow of the car, and the car just looks a bit thick below the belt line, where 996/997 and 986/987 do not look disproportionately massive, visually.

But I can accept a 2-prong approach. Mainstream front engined luxury cars, and niche mid and rear engined sports cars/GTs.

But down-market is not a great factor in that premise. A new 928 seems good. But a new 944, as much as I love the old one, doesn't really seem like it would fit, and would belong more under Audi's umbrella, along with transverse-inline mid-engined lower-market cars. At this point, it might be hard to build a "new 944, or new 968" that isn't remarkably similar to an Audi A5. (with pedestrian regs making cars look ever more like blunt bricks, and crash safety regs hurting the possibilities of light weight and liftback hatchbacks.)

I like Audi too, and it slightly overlaps Porsche's role... so keeping distinctions like longitudinal drivetrain mid-engined cars being Porsches, aside from the R8, are somewhat sticking points. Especially now that both are under VW's umbrella.
 

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The Panamera looks much better in person than the photos. Personally I see this luxury, 4 seat, serious sports sedan as a viable niche. I wish Porsche well.

But I really love driving my Cayman S. One sweet car. IMHO Ed
 

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After seeing the car in Houston at the opening event, I thought it looked good. The dealer has sold over 50 so far and can't even keep a demo in stock. All his alocations have been sold before he even get's the cars. Sales are key.
 

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For the Porsche model they are looking to use a twin turbo 4 @ 300hp. The VW, SEAT, and Skoda roadster will have 120 to 200hp gas engines. I guess this is all working toward a goal of platform sharing among brands.
A TT4 @ 300 hp as standard engine on the next Cayman would be intriguing, considering the current Flat-6 is 260 hp....Hmmmmm

I wonder if this would move the S's further upmarket.
 

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I was going to rent a Panamera from Avis during my Xmas trip to Germany (Munich plus side trips to Stuttgart and Neuschwanstein) this month, but they are charging 600 euro for 3 days or 1000 euro ($1500 !!!!) for a week. Not worth it even though it might have made a great trip report. The Audi A4 at 170 euro for 3 days was much more to my taste and I'll take the S-Bahn or U-Bahn to get around Munich the rest of the time. Unless the rental car people offer me a Panamera deal on the spot.........

Did I read that VW plans to axe the Panamera and Cayenne from the Porsche line-up and focus on real sports cars? I think Cayenne is about half of Porsche sales in the US. I'm not an SUV guy, but I think the Cayenne is one of the nicest looking SUVs around. The Turbo has to be the fastest. I've heard they have some mechanical/electrical issues now and then, but I don't know much about what the problems are or if they've been fixed. They should fix and keep the Cayenne for economic reasons. People around here seem to want them and buy them. They don't make much sense to me, but I don't mind seening them on the road.

I have to say that I think the Panamera is just plain ugly on the outside and I dont' think it will sell well. I think it will become a Porsche orphan like the 928 and resale value will be really low....so much expensive complications to break and low sales numbers makes for a bad used car buy. They tried too hard to make this biggish sedan look like one of the world's best looking coupes. It didn't work.

Panamera reminds me of the 12 cylinder and 2+2 XKEs. They took a grand thing (Series I and II in the case of the Jag and 911 in the case of Porsche) and made it much less by trying to force the dimensions.

I know the Panamera is a technical marvel and the interiors are fit for emperors, but it doesn't even look as good as a Jensen Interceptor on the outside. I'm thinking more AMC Marlin. You can only do so much with great paint, 19" wheels and superb fit and finish. The rest has to come from stylists. I think they got outvoted. I do not see the Panamera becoming a cult classic ever. It just looks overstuffed, claustrophobic and isolated to me...not a very fun car, and you don't need to be Robert Cumberford to know that the proportions are wrong on this beast. That's why "Photos don't do it justice, you just have to see it in person". This sounds suspiciously like Bangle when he started explaining his 7 Series BMW design philosophy. If you have to explain....

I imagine if you shell out 150 large for one, you'll come to "appreciate" the styling a bit more than normal people like myself, but eventually you'll rediscover what you knew the first time you saw it... that this "emperor" has no clothes.

While I will probably never buy another 911 because of the engine placement, I respect the great engineering that's been done to maximize its abilities and the truly beautiful evolutionary styling that's gone on over the years. Each new one is more beautiful and more capable than the last. Long live 911.

One wouldn't have to go far to find a prettier car than the Panamera. Performance or not, looks counts to Porsche buyers. The concept of making a 4 door supercar from Cayenne bits is a good one, but the body on this car is just so wrong. I'm sure Porsche poured mountains of money at the development of this car. I think it's a "forest for the trees" sort of thing going on.

Designers are their own worst enemies sometimes...BMW had Bangle wrecking their car lines for 10 years. I hope Porsche recovers from this mistake quicker.

Remember the S Class Merc that weighed so much you couldn't legally put 4 people in it? Remember the 7 series "Bangle Butt" and the first I-Drive nightmare?

Porsche has had their moments as well over the years. Houndstooth seats and baby poo brown paint schemes of the 70's come to mind. I just think a new car like this with all the money they've spent on the innards should look a whole lot better than this Panamera does.
 

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A Panamera coupe would definitely dig into 911 sales I would think.
They said that about the 928. Didn't happen. And of course Porsche thought that about the Cayman S which is why they dialed back the engines when it first came out. Still hasn't happened.

It doesn't help when you have the occasional chowder-head saying if you have a Boxster or Cayman, people will wonder why you can't afford a "real Porsche". Cayennes and Panameras obviously elicit different responses, but perhaps no less caustic.
 

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Also in the C&D.. a photo of the proposed 2013 Carrera GT --- darn if it doesn't look like a Cayman on steriods... but a 650 hp twin turbo V-8 and under 2500 pounds -- if that's possible ... For sure, all of this will be interesting in the coming couple years !!
Still, someone with new point of view in the new head office has to see the possibilities of establishing a "new" iconic model !!
D
 

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Even if I wasn't an owner I would hope that Porsche does not go down the route of loosing what it is all about and producing mass market vehicles.

I like the Cayenne for its amazing handling (for an SUV) and in turbo guise the pure power.

I disagree with sixinstuff on the Panamera being boring. There wasn't a single person that I saw step out of the Panamera 4S that was at the Porsche Club track day at the Dubai Autodrome just over a week back and be genuinely surprised at how good and fun it was.

In Car Middle East (and probably the UK version) December issue they looked at 30 cars on the track and road and the Panamera Turbo lapped Rockingham quicker than the CS and the Lotus Evora and loves to drift nicely :eek:

The overall winner of the test was the Lotus Evora, but it was close between it and the CS and it seems the Evora on steering and suspension performance (just right for both track and road). One of the comments on the Evora did say the pedal position and gearshift were better on the CS and they'd pick it instead.
 
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