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TaycanEVForum.com - The Largest Porsche Taycan Forum, Community And Owner's Club

https://www.planet-9.com/gallery/files/3/tesla400.jpg As some of you may already know I recently purchased a Tesla Model S P85+ after doing a lot of research into what I wanted and driving several different Teslas. I was discussing this purchase with a fellow Porsche enthusiasts who asked me "Why did you do that? Porsche is making the Mission E". Initially my answer was simple - because I can buy a Tesla NOW, I cannot buy a Mission E. I also don't see 500,000 people lining up and plunking down $1000 to buy a Mission E like they have for the Tesla Model 3, the first of which were delivered last week and subsequently there has been a lot of information about the Model 3 in the news. Most reviews have been very positive, especially from automotive journalists who were allowed to drive the car. I was talking specs of my P85+ with my buddy who then started throwing some of the marketing FUD from Porsche about the Mission E my way, such as being able to fully charge at some 440amp charger in a matter of minutes, thus claiming to be faster than a Tesla Supercharger. I decided to do a search here on Planet-9 for Tesla and see what had been said about them over the last few years. To my surprise, there is a LOT of misinformation about Teslas in this forum and so I thought I'd first try to clear some of that up before proceeding on to my thoughts about whether or not the Mission E can compete.

Myth #1 - You can't drive cross country and it takes too long to charge!

I flew into Tampa, Florida to pick up my Tesla with the goal of bringing the kids and girlfriend and spending time driving the car the roughly 1,300 miles back to Kansas City, hitting a number of spots along the way. Everything went smoothly with picking up the car and we, of course, had a full charge when we left the Tesla facility and drove to our nearby hotel. The next day we went to Busch gardens and some other places and stayed at the Hyatt the next night. Even though I used some charge running around that day we still had plenty but were pleased to see that the Hyatt had a dedicated Tesla wall charger. In Tesla terms they call these "Destination" chargers and they show up on the car's nav system. These are usually 40 amp chargers which means you typically get around 35-40 miles worth of distance for every hour you charge. This compares favorably to say a Chargepoint station where you might charge a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt, those are typically 20 or 30 amp stations so you charge slower there. We had a full charge (you only charge to 100% for trips, daily charging is usually to 80 or 85% as part of Tesla maintaining your battery) when we set out towards Atlanta. We stopped at our first Supercharger station in Lake City Florida, you can check where that is on the map, we bypassed the station in Ocala, we didn't need to stop there.

People ask me "How long does it take to charge at a Supercharger?" My answer is "How long do you need to charge?" I don't mean to be pithy, but it is true. You don't want nor do you need to charge to 100% while hopping from Supercharger to Supercharger. When you arrive you want to be somewhere between 10-20% charge left, then the Supercharger will get you to 60-70% charge in about 20 minutes and usually that's enough charge to go on your way and arrive in the same fashion at the next station. If you want to charge longer you can, but unless weather dictates it, you don't really need to. I would guess that charging from 80% to 100% takes about as long as it does from 10% to 80%. Tesla automatically throttles the charge rates via amperage changes to protect the batteries. When I was at 20% and plugged in the charger was charging at a rate over 360 miles of charge per hour, the Superchargers are very fast. For those who don't know, they are all across the country and continuing to grow more stations as I type. You can get anywhere in the US with them now. My car has over 250 miles of range on a full charge and if you turn off some conveniences and hyper mile you can make it over 300, but there really isn't any need to drive that way. Think about it, if I've been driving 70mph for 3 hours that's 210 miles, probably about the range I want to go before I charge and after 3 hours I probably need to use the facilities or my kids want a snack or there is some site along the way that we want to see. In fact we made a couple of extra stops along the way because one of the kids had drank too much soda and needed to use the bathroom before our next scheduled stop. Any family that has ever driven across country has surely experienced this in a regular gas powered vehicle.

In addition to the Nav system showing you the preferred route, we also made use of a 3rd party app that does the same but supposedly is more efficient, there were a couple of times we could have skipped a station/stop but ended up not doing so for some other reason or because I didn't want to push it and hadn't yet gotten used to the car and what to expect. We continued from Lake City, Florida to Macon, GA and from there to Atlanta. Our hotel in Atlanta had a Chargepoint station, no problem, overnight that's easily a full charge so the next day it was on to Chattanooga and into Nashville where we stayed, although our hotel there didn't have a charger but a nearby business did. I didn't really plan the trip based on where hotels had chargers but all but one of our hotels had at least one. From Nashville it was up into Kentucky then Mount Vernon IL, then we rolled into Saint Louis for the night. The next day it was Columbia MO then into KC. We left Tampa on Wednesday and arrived in KC on Saturday and along the way saw all sorts of sites, went to amusement parks, museums, science centers, the arch, etc. It was a great little family road trip and the Tesla worked just fine for it. My "fuel" cost between Tampa and KC? $0. (Saved $150 in gas)

Myth #2 - It's hard to find a place to charge

Nope, go download the app called PlugShare or the Chargepoint app and look up how many stations are in your area. The Tesla comes with adapters for other chargers so I can pretty much charge anywhere I want to, and most of the time it is free (Always free on Tesla Supercharger network for Model S, some Chargepoint or 3rd party stations do charge, but it is always less than the price of gas.

Myth #3 - Charging at Home takes a long time

Charging at home depends on what type of outlet you plug into or whether or not you have a Tesla home wall charger. Most owners plug into what looks like a dryer outlet and that is equivalent to a level 2 charger and even if you are completely empty (you drove 250 miles around town the day before) you can still charge fully overnight. If you have a high speed Tesla wall charge like I do, I can fully charge from zero to 250 miles of range in about 4 hours, but again, I'm never at zero, even if I drive 100 miles around town in a day, I'm going to be fully charged on the high speed 72amp charger in a couple of hours max. It's like having a gas station in your home, I never need to stop for gas, I never have to stop or pay for oil changes, if Quick Trip or 7-11 want my business back, well maybe they should put in a charger!

Myth #4 - It drives weird, it's not a sports car

First off, I have to say that different model Teslas drive differently, I was recently surprised how a P90D felt substantially different from my P85+. I opted for the rear wheel drive car with the better handling suspension over the all wheel drive model both due to cost as well as the driving "feel". The P85+ feels more alive and more agile to me, in fact surprisingly agile considering how much these cars weigh with all the batteries. It turns out that the P85+ models are now more sought after as being the earlier raw more sporty version of the Model S whereas newer ones are more technically superior but lack some of the driving dynamics, at least according to enthusiasts (perhaps similar to 993 911 vs. 991 911) My car isn't one of those 2.2 second 0-60 Ludicrous + machines, but still plenty quick at 3.9 seconds 0-60 in a 4 door sedan full of passengers. :) There is no substitute for torque and this is where electric cars will always beat gas powered cars. For example, on our trip back I was in the slow lane coming up behind a semi and looked in my mirror to get over and noticed a Mercedes sedan coming up fast in the fast lane. In a gas car I would have just waited until the Mercedes passed even though it meant tapping the break and coming out of cruise. In the Tesla I just stab the go pedal and I'm instantly there in the gap and around the semi and back in the slow lane letting cruise take over again. Now as more cars become electric the ability to do that vs. other cars will fade, but for now it's like having a supercar picking on a bunch of 4cyl VW Beetles in traffic, it really is no contest. The car is very comfortable but it does take some getting used to just pressing the button on the stalk to put the car in park, open the door, get out, close door and walk away. No button to press, no key to press, nothing to turn off, car does it all for you.

Myth #5 - The batteries won't last very long

If you had a Nissan Leaf I would say that this is true, especially the early ones, the batteries have not held up well. Fortunately, Tesla is not Nissan and Tesla has put a lot of research into their batteries and how to care for them. When I plug in my car at home the car communicates to the wall charger and over the web and charges the car in a safe way to a variable preset limit and then floats the battery. My car is a 2013 and has less than 1% battery degradation in the last 4 years. Tesla warranties its batteries for 8 years and 120,000 miles and independent tests show that existing Gen 1 batteries should last about 500,000 miles, Gen 2 batteries may be closer to 1 Million miles before the pack needs replaced. So while my girlfriends 2012 Leaf has gone from getting 85 miles of range down to about 65 miles of range in 5 years, my Tesla has suffered no such battery degradation in the first 4 years of its life.

If there are other myths I'm happy to discuss them, but these are some of the ones I found here on Planet-9. I could also spend a large amount of time telling you about all the great features of the Tesla Model S, such as my Homelink garage door opening being controlled by GPS so it opens and closes my garage door automatically for me, I don't have to press that homelink button! I can raise or lower the car and have it remember where I did so, say at a speed bump at the office parking garage, and from that point forward it will do it for me automatically, not need to manually raise and lower it each time, unless you want to. No need to start the car, just walk up with the key, open door, sit down, select drive (or reverse) and go. Yes it can be a bit strange as it goes against habits we have developed for years in driving ICE cars, but it also shows what is possible.

So where does Porsche stand with Mission E? I have no doubt that Porsche is working hard on building an all electric sedan. Tesla Model S's far outsell Panameras and will leave them in the dust at a stoplight, that can't make Porsche executives feel good. Tesla has freely given away its patents on its electric cars and Porsche has some great engineers so I'm assuming the end result will be a well designed electric car. The questions I struggle with are whether or not anyone will buy it at the price point Porsche is likely to ask for it, and will it be any better than anything Tesla or any other manufacturer is selling 3 or 4 years from now when it finally comes out? Where is Porsche getting its batteries? Porsche doesn't have its own battery plant, will Porsche source from Tesla? Porsche doesn't have a nationwide network of supercharging stations. Barring some miraculous battery advancement that allows the Mission E to go 500 miles on a charge, the Mission E is still going to have to stop and recharge along a city to city or cross country drive. Where and how will it do that? (I should add that Tesla superchargers are not AC current but direct DC current chargers) Given that Tesla already has autopilot and is offering it on the new low cost Model 3, it would seem like a de facto requirement of the Mission E but AFAIK Porsche still doesn't have a working autopilot system. I suppose they could buy one from someone else. The Mission E does look sexy, great curvy lines, but is that what the finished product will look like or is that just a prototype? I understand that Porsche had to get "something" out into the market in terms of marketing FUD otherwise customers might fear they are doing nothing, but I haven't seen Porsche really start wetting people's appetites for the car by talking about specifics or demonstrating working prototypes, etc. just that Porsche is on a mission to build the Mission E.

Part of what makes Tesla so successful is that it doesn't think like a traditional car company. If there is a new piece of hardware or software available to improve a Tesla then Tesla adds it midstream and just keeps going. This can make it difficult for people interested in buying a pre-owned Tesla to know when feature X or feature Y first became available because Tesla really doesn't think in terms of model years. Recently Tesla improved the efficiencies of its electric motors and that's why you see the new Model 3's getting more range out of the same size battery pack that used to get the Model S maybe 60 miles less range. Those improvements are already getting rolled into the Model S's rolling off the lines in the last few months as well. Tesla is more like a software company and less like a car company, perhaps it would suit Porsche to spin off it's Mission E initiative into a new holding company and let that company work in its own way towards the goal of producing the Mission E as opposed to being hamstrung by a lot of traditional automotive restrictions or old ways of creating and improving upon a car. They could call it E-Porsche or Porsche-E (pronounced Por-sheee) :)

I'm happy to answer any questions that you have about Teslas to the best of my ability even though I'm still learning myself. You all know me, I'm a car guy, doesn't matter if it is a 1950's Jaguar, GT4 or Tesla Model S, I try to enjoy a car for its strengths and uniqueness even if it doesn't fit into someone else's mold that's OK. Enjoy some of the pictures and let me know if you have any questions!









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Congratulations. I assume you dropped the Model 3 deposit and kept the GT4. Yes, I have some questions.

1. the Supercharger will get you to 60-70% charge in about 20 minutes

For most people, thats 15 minutes to long and 30% short. Not really a question but will like to see what you think about that in say 4 years. While you are waiting around and others leave at gas stations. In other words, will it get old? Whether we like it or not, everyone today expects instant gratification. I guess you can't answer that yet.

2. You can get anywhere in the US with them now.


Looking at the supercharger map, I disagree. Having driven all around the US several times, there were large stretches where I was worried about finding gas stations. https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds/49.38,-66.94,25.82,-124.39,d?search=supercharger&name=us Looking here, in the west, its mostly on the interstates. Go on a US highway, and nothing. Go on a local road and I would be worried. Wyoming, Dakotas, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, parts of ME, upstate NY look pretty empty. Even in your state, Southwest corner looks empty and the panhandle of OK. I get what your saying, they are building it out, but it doesn't look ready for primetime yet.

3. People usually don't let the gas get to a blinking idiot light even in urban areas. When on the road in the boonies, its unwise to get below 1/4 tank. What is the true range? Consider weather. You get below freezing, but KS is flat. What if you lived in the snow, hilly, what do you think a reasonable range is but still have a 1/4 tank reserve? Especially worried about winter and the fact much of the US is hilly and that has have some effect.

4. What happens when you do run out of electrons and stranded on highway? Is Tesla going to come and get you? If they do, what happens out of warranty? (I ask because you know this will happen to somebody). Today you call AAA and they come out with some gas. What will you do? https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/03/10/how-are-teslas-rescued-if-they-run-out-of-power-on-the-road/#355540603e48 Despite the fact it might want you, many people ignore the idiot lights. Then what?

5. Rough cost for the charging station? What if there is no garage? What about common parking like an apartment?

6. Don't know about KS but Storms happen all the time and power goes out. Hurricane time comes and many people out for a week or two. Think Katrina, Sandy, and other smaller Tropical Storms. It does happen. Then what would you do? Gas stations are simple, you buy some gallon of gas and drive out of the area where there is no electricity.

7. Bugs happen. Stupid TV reboots itself, automatically updates, etc. Worried about that or don't care? I would hate to have any car calling home. Call home ET. No, not such a good idea, IMO. You care about this?

8. Hunting down charging stations, what you going to do when there is no cell service? Some Tesla got stuck in the desert because he forgot his phone. See Tesla owner gets stranded in the desert after relying on phone to start the car That seems like a real issue.

Sounds like you like it. That's all that matters. ;)

BTW, I would not have waited for a Mission E. IMO, they are going down a dark road.
 

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Starting with balnk sheets of paper design-wise, I think Tesla could have created vehicles more appealing visually than the S, X and 3. At best they are vanilla-looking. The Mission E looks MUCH better to these eyes, and will likely hurt S sales if it comes in priced as expected under the Panamera.

I would have a tough time buying a Ferrari for some of the same reasons I would have a tough time owning a Tesla: I don't identify with the owner community. Present company excepted, Ken, none of the Tesla owners I know are people I'd want to have a beer with.

Good to hear you're liking your car though. I take your comments and observations at face value, while the last Tesla owner I talked with didn't know that torque and horespower aren't the same thing, so anything else she had to say about the car was suspect. She bought a transportation appliance and is reveling in its relative uniqueness and the eco-bragging rights that come with ownership.
 

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Interesting discussion on Mission E vs Tesla.
Price point surely will differentiate (like a 911 turbo vs C7 of any sort).
The charging station issue though is interesting. I get your point, but I think the point will be different in Germany/EU. So, "they" will get the full benefit of the faster charger system for likely a significant time before US does -- unless Tesla as a matter of market satisfaction, "volts up".

Good luck and enjoy your "E-sedan"... I live in Calif and constantly visit the bay area, so Tesla's are pretty common out here.. as are their charging stations..
 

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I think the real question is will Tesla survive and how will Porsche prosper.

Also, there are some reality checks which need to be considered with respect to EVs

(1) . The number of EVs on public roads as a percentage of vehicles is very low - there is a critical threshold that will start impacting on infrastructure e.g. charging points, distribution networks, transmission networks and generation capacity
(2) . The green credentials are highly misplaced - for example, like many first world countries the US generates around 65% of its energy through coal and gas, followed by ~ 20% Nuclear - renewables only make up about 15% of the mix (largely hydro followed by wind and tiny amounts of solar ~2%) - where will the electrical capacity come from. Note electricity generation dominates greenhouse gas emissions.
(3) EVs require huge amounts of energy to move them and keep them moving, because they are so heavy ~ 2.2 tonnes e.g. ke = 1/2mv^2 where m = mass.
(4) . The impact of large numbers of EVs will require colossal electrical infrastructure upgrades - who will pay for this
(5) . What happens to the redundant batteries - this is also a significant problem - you can recycles the metals through solvent extraction and electrolysis - however, this uses yet more electrical energy and is currently barely economic to do so
(6) . It should be noted that current F1 engines are ~ 50% efficient

I could keep going, however I would make some observations - the vast majority of Tesla owners I have come across rarely understand the long term reality and technical challenges moving forward. At one stage I had two professionals who owned (P85s I think) working for my company. They wanted to charge up at the underground car park at our leased facility (this was a large facility that housed around 500 staff and contractors) - I investigated this in detail - but in a nut shell, between electricians, building works, lawyers and remediation the cost was very high. Interestingly the two individuals felt I should pay for this. I offered them a 50%:25%:25% split - they declined.

The long and the short of it, there is a real world out there that needs real solutions and, as history has repeatedly shown, attempts at legislating major change that aren't driven by economics usually end very badly. I suspect Mr Musk will find this out the hard way.

Good luck with the Model S - I hope it works out for you.

As an after thought I believe BMW produce more EVs than Tesla (cant remember where I heard this) - I don't think Tesla will compete with anything Porsche will produce - the fit and finish are light years apart. From a commercial point of view the marketing will be interesting - differentiation will be the key. From my own perspective I find EVs dull, more a functional appliance than an emotive experience - this is something the marketing will need to address.
 

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I think mission E is going to be a giant failure for Porsche. Porsche is not Tesla. They have gambled their entire company on building electric cars by investing in a huge expensive factory in Stuttgart (with only building one electric prototype that I know of). They left the top class in Le Mans - a Porsche tradition of winning for the Formula E racing series. Clearly Porsche intends to go all electric in the future. Tesla has not even made a single dollar of profit yet even though the cars are heavily subsidized.

The Electric car business model for Porsche MAY work if they only build SUVs and Sedans. Sports cars would be dead. Too heavy for cornering well and no one is going to pay that much money for an electric sports car that has no character. If Porsche is ringing their hands now about the huge plummet in 718/911 sales, just wait until they see the numbers on an electric sports car.

They know this fact which is why they canceled (for now), the hybrid 911.

Guys complain about the whoosh of the new turbo 911s but I can't even imagine driving an electric 911 with one gear. Buy your turbo 911s with a manual now! :)
 

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I disagree with a lot of things here,
I will try to be as unbiased as possible when it comes to describe Teslas.

I currently own a 2016 Model X 75D, it has all the options but the battery is relatively small.

So what experiences have I got in the last 8 months.

When I got my Model X back in December I was excited honestly because it was amazing how much technology this vehicles have and just the way it looked and opened the doors was mind blowing, obviously i couldnt find anything wrong with it i just loved it.

A couple of months later things started to change a bit when the car started falling apart, loose trim, loose carpet, squeaking doors it was all a mess for every imperfection my love for the tesla was going down.

Recently and for the third time i went to fix a piece of trim that was already repaired twice but this time i asked for a loaner as i never had to use one before, they told me "sure we can give you one" and they gave me a toyota avalon... I could not tell you how mad I was, how can you pay 120k and get a 30k car for a loaner which is not even their brand. Nevermind after me making notice of my disgust the "found" a p90D model x for a loaner.

Fixed it two days later went pick it up and listen, its been a bit under a month since that service and the piece they fixed for the third time popped out again and the carpet too.

So for this first part quality for a 120k vehicle not good.

Now the most controversial part range and long trips!!

When i configured my model x i was told that my 75d would last me 230-260 miles of charge and i was ok considering they told me that i could find superchargers on any trip i do.

Went with it and never noticed how much power i consumed when i was driving in city and i honestly didnt pay too much attention to the consumption display so one day i unplug my car and it say 85% charged 262 miles of range and after a mile i had already lost 3 miles of range so something was not right.

A few days later i have a meeting at Sebring FL and I live in Davie FL 3 hours south ao i had to go up north to sebring 127 miles, i said no problem i have 262 miles and can almost go and come back with a single charge... and that was the moment i didnt know i f&$%# up, i was doing 65 with ac and wipers because it was raining on midpoint to my destination i had 54% so i started to feel uncomfortable and sai im going to see where can I find a supercharger and for my luck there were absolutely none anywhere near not even 30 miles close so my only charging spot near my destination was at my destination Sebring Airport, with my fingers crossed we made it with 3 percent and had to charge it a 40amps because that was the mos we could get, my meeting lasted 30 minutes but my car had charged just 25 miles, I had to wait a bit more than 5 hours to get my charge almost full, since i had a meeting at night at home i had to do something about it so on my way back I drove at 55mph no a/c, no music and all this might be too much but when you have no idea what to do you just think doing that stuff might give you a couple of miles of range. So there is where i started looking at the consumption display and hey hey found something, so you have a line that says rated, another line says average and the other line says your current consumption, so in order to drive those 262 miles you have to drive at 35mph !!!! Can you believe that!? They were not lying about the range as long as you drive it at 35mph so there you got it i cous only drive 130 miles with my charge in trips. Finally got back home with 2% but i was totally done with tesla.

My verdict after 8 months is i am totally disappointed, I dont want the vehicle anymore but i have to keep it because depreciation is very very bad on these, i now know that i cant do long trips if i want to stop charge continue is best case scenario 40 minutes for 130 miles sooo a big no no for me and as soon as I can im changing it.

As for OP im happy you are having fun, and looks like the depreciation took it the other owner so you are fine there.

Hope you have a good expierence with yours.

PS: Sorry for any gramatical or orthographical error English is my second language.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Congratulations. I assume you dropped the Model 3 deposit and kept the GT4. Yes, I have some questions.

1. the Supercharger will get you to 60-70% charge in about 20 minutes

For most people, thats 15 minutes to long and 30% short. Not really a question but will like to see what you think about that in say 4 years. While you are waiting around and others leave at gas stations. In other words, will it get old? Whether we like it or not, everyone today expects instant gratification. I guess you can't answer that yet.

2. You can get anywhere in the US with them now.


Looking at the supercharger map, I disagree. Having driven all around the US several times, there were large stretches where I was worried about finding gas stations. https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds/49.38,-66.94,25.82,-124.39,d?search=supercharger&name=us Looking here, in the west, its mostly on the interstates. Go on a US highway, and nothing. Go on a local road and I would be worried. Wyoming, Dakotas, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, parts of ME, upstate NY look pretty empty. Even in your state, Southwest corner looks empty and the panhandle of OK. I get what your saying, they are building it out, but it doesn't look ready for primetime yet.

3. People usually don't let the gas get to a blinking idiot light even in urban areas. When on the road in the boonies, its unwise to get below 1/4 tank. What is the true range? Consider weather. You get below freezing, but KS is flat. What if you lived in the snow, hilly, what do you think a reasonable range is but still have a 1/4 tank reserve? Especially worried about winter and the fact much of the US is hilly and that has have some effect.

4. What happens when you do run out of electrons and stranded on highway? Is Tesla going to come and get you? If they do, what happens out of warranty? (I ask because you know this will happen to somebody). Today you call AAA and they come out with some gas. What will you do? https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/03/10/how-are-teslas-rescued-if-they-run-out-of-power-on-the-road/#355540603e48 Despite the fact it might want you, many people ignore the idiot lights. Then what?

5. Rough cost for the charging station? What if there is no garage? What about common parking like an apartment?

6. Don't know about KS but Storms happen all the time and power goes out. Hurricane time comes and many people out for a week or two. Think Katrina, Sandy, and other smaller Tropical Storms. It does happen. Then what would you do? Gas stations are simple, you buy some gallon of gas and drive out of the area where there is no electricity.

7. Bugs happen. Stupid TV reboots itself, automatically updates, etc. Worried about that or don't care? I would hate to have any car calling home. Call home ET. No, not such a good idea, IMO. You care about this?

8. Hunting down charging stations, what you going to do when there is no cell service? Some Tesla got stuck in the desert because he forgot his phone. See Tesla owner gets stranded in the desert after relying on phone to start the car That seems like a real issue.

Sounds like you like it. That's all that matters. ;)

BTW, I would not have waited for a Mission E. IMO, they are going down a dark road.
Ok let me address these.

1. I think you might be misunderstanding the way superchargers work, you don't want to charge to 100% nor do you use a supercharger for anything other than a cross country trip. If 56% charge will get you to the next station with a 10% buffer then most people will probably charge to 60 or 65% and be on their way. There is no need to charge to 100%. Let's look at the time factor next. Let's say you spend 30 minutes charging on a cross country trip at each station and you stop at say 6 stations during your trip, that's 180 minutes or 3 hours. How many cross country trips do you make in a year? 1? 2? For me this year it will be 1. So now let's compare to a regular gas (ICE) car. How often do you stop at a gas station? once a week? twice a week? let's say twice a week and let's say your stop is for 10 minutes but I bet it is really more like 15 on average because sometimes you go inside and get a drink or go to the bathroom, etc. but for arguments sake let's say you are fast and only spend 10 minutes. That's 20 minutes a week. in 3 weeks you've spent an hour, in 9 weeks you've spent 3 hours. As you can guess you spend FAR more time at a gas station during a year than you ever will spend at Supercharger stations during a year unless you take a lot of cross country trips. So for the "average" driver having an electric car SAVES time overall.

2. Again I think you misunderstand Superchargers, those are precisely for where they are at, interstates, driving long distances, state to state. If I am driving around town I just charge at my house at night and I have a full charge in the morning, like having a full gas tank every day of the week. I don't need a Supercharger for anything other than a cross country trip or say going from San Francisco to Los Angeles, etc. Look at that map again, looks like I can get anywhere in the country, meaning any major city. As an FYI the website also lags actual Supercharger deployment by a bit it seems as we found a station on our Nav that wasn't listed on the web during our trip. I'm assuming the auto-nav updates are faster. There are over 6000 SC stations now, and the projected install rate has about 10,000 online by the end of this year. (Ramping up for the Model 3 owner influx).

3. Did you know that when the temps fall below a certain temperature that the Teslas automatically block out a section of your batter in blue that is used for keeping the battery pack at optimal temperature? This shows up on your screen and gets factored into any route planning accordingly, so while probably not perfect, Tesla does try to take into account any issues that might come up due to cold weather affecting batteries and range. Again, if I start the morning with say 200 miles instead of 250 miles, I'm pretty sure I can get through my days driving without any issue, and again Supercharger stations are close enough to each other to provide plenty of safety margin for cross country driving even with adverse weather conditions. Let's say I did find that I was somehow using a lot more battery than planned, strong headwinds, hills, whatever, the Nav system is smart enough to re-route me if I cannot make my destination. In a pinch I can always use the supplied cable and adapters to charge at a regular 110 outlet or 240v dryer style outlet if I cannot find any charging station of any type, but again something like that isn't going to happen on a cross country SC trip, or in a daily commute. Can you run a Tesla out of charge? Sure, people do stupid stuff, just like people who run out of gas. :)

4. Free Teslas roadside assistance they come get you and either charge you enough to get to next station, or flatbed you to a facility depending upon the issue/distance. Outside of warranty I suppose it is the same situation I faced with a Porsche with no spare tire that is outside of warranty, you have to call a third party and pay for assistance. In a pinch you could have someone with a pickup truck tow you to the nearest electric outlet using a tow strap (just have to put the car in tow mode). As far as when you are getting low on charge that giant 17" screen gives you plenty of reminders, re-routes your plotted nav, offers suggestions, etc. again you've got to try to run out of charge or be on drugs or something. Look at the guy who crashed his Tesla when on autopilot last year and was killed, the follow up data shows he ignored warnings for 45 minutes to put his hands back on the wheel. So yeah, there are people who ignore warnings, but I hardly think that's the norm.

5. You don't have to install a charging station at home, most owners have a dryer outlet style 14-50 (I think that's the number) installed in their garage and that's plenty fine for overnight charging, heck even a standard 110 outlet might get you enough charge overnight depending on how many miles you drove the day before. A charging station from Tesla is $500 for the 8ft cord or $550 for the 24ft cord. I went with the 24ft option. There are other 3rd party charging stations for less, those are typically the J1772 plugs so you have to use your supplied adapter to plug one of those into your Tesla but they work fine too. Home Depot and Lowes both sell them, plenty on Amazon as well. I can imagine at some point having a charging station in your garage will be seen as a plus when trying to sell a home. I was told by my electrician that builders are starting to put either the main panel or a sub panel in garages now in new homes just for this very reason.

6. If there is a storm and we lose power unless I ran my car all the way down from 250 miles to 0 earlier that day and didn't put it on the charger then I'm going to assume I have plenty of charge in the batteries to do the same thing, drive out of the area to an area where electricity is working and charge up there if need be, or go out of the area and get some fuel for my generator to generate electricity for my home. This is assuming I don't have a Tesla solar roof or a Tesla power wall that are generating or storing power for me even though the grid is down. My current roof is over 20 years old and is coming up for replacement, you can bet I will be looking at solar options, Tesla and others as a replacement roof. Some people obviously drive out of the area and stay out of the area and return when things get better, so again, barring some whacky scenario I don't see this as any different from having a gas car. If I ran all the gas out of my car to where I could only get to a local gas station and that gas station can't pump because there is no power, then I don't have enough gas to drive out of the area to get more gas, same catch 22. :)

7. One of the things they show you during new car orientation is how to reboot your car should anything weird ever happen, it is pretty simple, hold down 2 button for 10 seconds, system reboots. People reboot iphones and computers and other electronic devices all the time, so I'm not worried about it, hasn't been an issue so far. As far as big brother monitoring I actually don't mind it (government is doing it anyway in all sorts of ways) and actually found that it was handy at one point on our trip I found I couldn't go over 87mph because the car had been left in service mode before delivery. I called roadside assistance and the woman said she could unlock that remotely but I had to be stopped. I told her I was going to be pulling over in about 10 minutes and she said fine she would monitor and when she saw the car was in park she'd send the unlock command. We pulled over and charged and when we got back on the road sure enough the restriction was gone. So having that kind of remote control is a nice convenience (the remote control app for the Tesla has lots of nice features on my phone, can remotely cool/heat the car, locate it, etc.)

8. I don't have to hunt down charging stations, those are displayed on the Nav, if I need a charging station I know where it is, but again, only time I should need one is on a cross country trip, otherwise I'm charging at home. As far as the idiot who drives around with just his phone, he should have brought his key. The Model 3 is going to be run by phone only with 2 backup credit card like cards that will allow you access to starting the car (can be used to give a valet, etc.). I'm sure they must have thought of some solution for when the phone is dead or has no service and the owner has forgotten to bring their backup card with them, just like the guy in your story who didn't bring his key.
 

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Thanks! Good answers, and thankful you wrote out all the answers! Not sure you addressed all my concerns so ...


1. I think you might be misunderstanding the way superchargers work, you don't want to charge to 100% nor do you use a supercharger for anything other than a cross country trip. If 56% charge will get you to the next station with a 10% buffer then most people will probably charge to 60 or 65% and be on their way. There is no need to charge to 100%. Let's look at the time factor next. Let's say you spend 30 minutes charging on a cross country trip at each station and you stop at say 6 stations during your trip, that's 180 minutes or 3 hours. How many cross country trips do you make in a year? 1? 2? For me this year it will be 1. So now let's compare to a regular gas (ICE) car. How often do you stop at a gas station? once a week? twice a week? let's say twice a week and let's say your stop is for 10 minutes but I bet it is really more like 15 on average because sometimes you go inside and get a drink or go to the bathroom, etc. but for arguments sake let's say you are fast and only spend 10 minutes. That's 20 minutes a week. in 3 weeks you've spent an hour, in 9 weeks you've spent 3 hours. As you can guess you spend FAR more time at a gas station during a year than you ever will spend at Supercharger stations during a year unless you take a lot of cross country trips. So for the "average" driver having an electric car SAVES time overall.
Cross country to me mean exactly that, driving across the country and back. From the East Cost to the West coast and back, or vice versa, it was typically 9 - 10,000 mile trips, not 1300. Even driving say Boston to Disney World and back ~3,000 miles. Its not just the direct line distance, its also what you do when you get there. So seeing the USA in your Chevrolet doesn't mean just looking at pavement on an Interstate, its also across hundreds of miles in the Dakota, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, etc. etc etc into the boondocks towns of rural America, up into the mountains, and deserts, far from the beaten track.

Its also not 6 stops its might be hundreds of stops, granted yes, one does make pit stops. So just trying to figure it out when one is making a spur of the moment decision to leave the well traveled path what is going to happen. When in some one horse town in North Dakota, say around the National Park there, what happens. This is a very real situation.

2. Again I think you misunderstand Superchargers
Maybe, so my question is in #1. What would one do in the boondocks? I don't see many people driving around the country on vacations and just hanging out on Interstates.

3. Did you know that when the temps fall below a certain temperature that the Teslas automatically block out a section of your batter in blue that is used for keeping the battery pack at optimal temperature? This shows up on your screen and gets factored into any route planning accordingly, so while probably not perfect, Tesla does try to take into account any issues that might come up due to cold weather affecting batteries and range.
OK, that wasn't the question. The question is what is the real world range considering the weather and hills. You are in the flat land :). Others live in hilly country even though the elevation might not be in the mountains. Just curious. You might not know yet until you get experience.

4. Free Teslas roadside assistance they come get you and either charge you enough to get to next station, or flatbed you to a facility depending upon the issue/distance. Outside of warranty I suppose it is the same situation I faced with a Porsche with no spare tire that is outside of warranty, you have to call a third party and pay for assistance.
OK, thats a reasonable answer. They do give you a charge? Good. The flat tire thing will be the same regardless of what car you drive. This is just another issue that can effect consumers that they didn't have to worry about before because they know there are volunteer groups on Interstates that help or AAA or whatever their auto club might be to bring gas.

5. You don't have to install a charging station at home, most owners have a dryer outlet style 14-50 (I think that's the number) installed in their garage and that's plenty fine for overnight charging, heck even a standard 110 outlet might get you enough charge overnight depending on how many miles you drove the day before. A charging station from Tesla is $500 for the 8ft cord or $550 for the 24ft cord. I went with the 24ft option. There are other 3rd party charging stations for less, those are typically the J1772 plugs so you have to use your supplied adapter to plug one of those into your Tesla but they work fine too. Home Depot and Lowes both sell them, plenty on Amazon as well. I can imagine at some point having a charging station in your garage will be seen as a plus when trying to sell a home. I was told by my electrician that builders are starting to put either the main panel or a sub panel in garages now in new homes just for this very reason.
OK good answer. didn't know you could use 110. But I've lived in places with no garages including apartments when young. Where do they plug in?

6 If I ran all the gas out of my car to where I could only get to a local gas station and that gas station can't pump because there is no power, then I don't have enough gas to drive out of the area to get more gas, same catch 22. :)
Not really. I've been through times when power has been out of a week multiple times. It happens more than I would like to see. It is a MISERABLE experience, especially in hot, humid weather. Water is OK, but no electric. I still had to get up and go the places I had to go. Portable radios worked. Without a generator, forget about your cell phone (unless charging in car), forget about TV, forget about everything - EXCEPT the car.

Its true, local gas stations also did not have power but not all of them everywhere. Drive 20 miles out, and there was gas, fill it up. Charge cell while driving, etc. Come back to miserable experience. Hot, sticky, mess, no where to wash clothes unless drive 20 miles out to laundromat, etc etc etc. Not fun at all.

In this scenario, you are screwed. Just saying. No going to work. Without a generator, food goes bad. No driving to the laundramat. No driving to food store, which all had no power, etc. And it most definitely happens on the East Coast in hurricane season, and sometimes in the winter during blizzards when ice storms come.

I only bring this up because its something that people who live in these kind of areas need to deal with, and its real. And people who live there generally know to go buy gallons of gas for the generator, or just have lawn mower gas around for emergencies, so at least they can drive out of the area.

And if Zombies come, you're really screwed ;)

7. One of the things they show you during new car orientation is how to reboot your car should anything weird ever happen, it is pretty simple, hold down 2 button for 10 seconds, system reboots.
OK :)

8. I don't have to hunt down charging stations, those are displayed on the Nav, if I need a charging station I know where it is, but again, only time I should need one is on a cross country trip, otherwise I'm charging at home. As far as the idiot who drives around with just his phone, he should have brought his key. The Model 3 is going to be run by phone only with 2 backup credit card like cards that will allow you access to starting the car (can be used to give a valet, etc.). I'm sure they must have thought of some solution for when the phone is dead or has no service and the owner has forgotten to bring their backup card with them, just like the guy in your story who didn't bring his key.
OK, anecdotal story anyway.

Thanks! Good answers as I am trying to absorb all the info.
 

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I think the real question is will Tesla survive and how will Porsche prosper.

Also, there are some reality checks which need to be considered with respect to EVs ...

The long and the short of it, there is a real world out there that needs real solutions and, as history has repeatedly shown, attempts at legislating major change that aren't driven by economics usually end very badly. I suspect Mr Musk will find this out the hard way.
I think mission E is going to be a giant failure for Porsche. Porsche is not Tesla. They have gambled their entire company on building electric cars by investing in a huge expensive factory in Stuttgart (with only building one electric prototype that I know of).
I believe RandR is correct here. There seems to be some assumption that PAG did this as a business decision. No, as I have said for two years, its all about Emissions. Read it and weep. https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars_en VAG MUST meet the 95g standard or the fines will be huge. They are doing do this save the world because we are all going to burn up. They are doing it because they are mandated to do so. Period. The diesel thing hurt bad. But the mandates are the real issue.

Now the EU has mandated compliance with Paris (IMO a hissy fit over the US pulling out). But far worse, just google it and you will see EU countries, one after the other, calling for the banning of ICE from the EU. Event the UK is in on it now wanting ICE out by 2040.

One needs to look at intent. Government intent. Its all out there. The EU is done with ICE cars, its only a matter of the date. So no, PAG (and VAG) has not gambled anything. Germany is not the US. Its not like they are Ford or GM and can build whatever they want. They are mandated to follow the laws of their country and the European Union.

Everyone needs to open there eyes and see what is going on. They are NOT the US. They MUST follow the regulations on that side of the pond.

As to Tesla, 63,000 Model 3 deposits have been pulled. Tens of thousands of people have cancelled their Tesla Model 3 orders | South China Morning Post. Deposits are being returned slowly. https://www.wired.com/story/canceling-your-model-3-deposit-dont-count-on-a-timely-refund/ It happens, but the $7500 "incentive" evaporates soon. Those $35000 cars, maybe $45000 equipped, will really cost $45,000. Thats higher than the average car sold in the US at $35000. We'll see what happens when the subsidies die. In Georgia, the EV market collapsed. But lets see what happens.

However, in Germany, this isn't an issue of "lets see". Its a done deal.
 

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I've been noticing a lot of Tesla 75 and 75D in Lake Tahoe, where a lot of people vacation from San Francisco. People are bridging the range. It's about 200 miles, but up to 7000 feet elevation. But it started to feel real for me that people are making the trip on the smaller battery.

I think the 75D I test drove recently was a better car in every way than the P85+ I drove 3 years ago, for about $50,000 less MSRP. You can get a base model for $65k and it's now loaded with glass roof, air suspension, 0-60 in 4 seconds, etc. It's absurdly quick even compared to a $70k German sedan, because of the instantaneous nature of the direct drive motor. The reason a C63S AMG gets 30 MPG is it dynamically spins down to a C200 when highway driving. The 1 second it takes to transform makes it feel "slow" when you want to punch it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Starting with balnk sheets of paper design-wise, I think Tesla could have created vehicles more appealing visually than the S, X and 3. At best they are vanilla-looking. The Mission E looks MUCH better to these eyes, and will likely hurt S sales if it comes in priced as expected under the Panamera.

I would have a tough time buying a Ferrari for some of the same reasons I would have a tough time owning a Tesla: I don't identify with the owner community. Present company excepted, Ken, none of the Tesla owners I know are people I'd want to have a beer with.

Good to hear you're liking your car though. I take your comments and observations at face value, while the last Tesla owner I talked with didn't know that torque and horespower aren't the same thing, so anything else she had to say about the car was suspect. She bought a transportation appliance and is reveling in its relative uniqueness and the eco-bragging rights that come with ownership.
I don't think some Teslas photograph very well, for example the S looks better in person than in photos, in fact most people I talk to think it looks great. Some like the new style nose, others like the original. The X and the 3 have different proportions, but in reality it is all about managing drag/aero and battery cooling. Yes the Mission E concept car looks really cool but I highly doubt it will look like that when it goes into production.

As far as the owner community it is interesting, among the Porsche crowd we have wine and cheese enthusiasts, doctors and dentists and then your track rats, they don't always get along. How many Cayman owners have been snubbed by 911 owners at PCA events because they weren't driving a 911? Among Tesla owners there are the more radical save the environment types, but there are also 1/4 mile enthusiasts (see videos of people stripping their P100D's and taking them to 1/4 mile drag challenges on youtube), and then there are the tech enthusiasts. I wouldn't say that Tesla owners are any better or any worse than Porsche owners, just a different mix. We have a pretty active facebook group in KC for Tesla owners and most discussion there is about options, how well things hold up, where to get winter tires and wheels, very similar to discussions you'd see here on P9.

I'm also assuming some people don't even care about the owner community, they just buy what they want, drive it, and don't participate in any sort of group activities. I can also tell you that learning the terminology used for electric cars can also be problematic, I often get kwh and kwm and other terms mixed up, I'm still learning! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I think the real question is will Tesla survive and how will Porsche prosper.

Also, there are some reality checks which need to be considered with respect to EVs

(1) . The number of EVs on public roads as a percentage of vehicles is very low - there is a critical threshold that will start impacting on infrastructure e.g. charging points, distribution networks, transmission networks and generation capacity
(2) . The green credentials are highly misplaced - for example, like many first world countries the US generates around 65% of its energy through coal and gas, followed by ~ 20% Nuclear - renewables only make up about 15% of the mix (largely hydro followed by wind and tiny amounts of solar ~2%) - where will the electrical capacity come from. Note electricity generation dominates greenhouse gas emissions.
(3) EVs require huge amounts of energy to move them and keep them moving, because they are so heavy ~ 2.2 tonnes e.g. ke = 1/2mv^2 where m = mass.
(4) . The impact of large numbers of EVs will require colossal electrical infrastructure upgrades - who will pay for this
(5) . What happens to the redundant batteries - this is also a significant problem - you can recycles the metals through solvent extraction and electrolysis - however, this uses yet more electrical energy and is currently barely economic to do so
(6) . It should be noted that current F1 engines are ~ 50% efficient

I could keep going, however I would make some observations - the vast majority of Tesla owners I have come across rarely understand the long term reality and technical challenges moving forward. At one stage I had two professionals who owned (P85s I think) working for my company. They wanted to charge up at the underground car park at our leased facility (this was a large facility that housed around 500 staff and contractors) - I investigated this in detail - but in a nut shell, between electricians, building works, lawyers and remediation the cost was very high. Interestingly the two individuals felt I should pay for this. I offered them a 50%:25%:25% split - they declined.

The long and the short of it, there is a real world out there that needs real solutions and, as history has repeatedly shown, attempts at legislating major change that aren't driven by economics usually end very badly. I suspect Mr Musk will find this out the hard way.

Good luck with the Model S - I hope it works out for you.

As an after thought I believe BMW produce more EVs than Tesla (cant remember where I heard this) - I don't think Tesla will compete with anything Porsche will produce - the fit and finish are light years apart. From a commercial point of view the marketing will be interesting - differentiation will be the key. From my own perspective I find EVs dull, more a functional appliance than an emotive experience - this is something the marketing will need to address.
Ok let me try to address or at least comment
1: I agree total numbers are low but they are growing and as you say, how they will pay their fair share is still being worked out. If gas taxes went away tomorrow, government would find another way to get its $ I'm sure.
2: No doubt that we are still using too much coal and gas, but we have to start changing somewhere and at sometime, no time like the present! Hopefully those newer Fusion reactors that have shown a lot of promise in the last couple of years will pan out and we can get off coal and gas sooner as opposed to later. I'm not blind, I know that even a Tesla has a carbon footprint but for me there is no way to lower the carbon footprint of a gas car with the refining, transportation and burning. There are ways of lowering the carbon footprint of an electric car, we just aren't there yet, but we can work in that direction.
3: EVs roll downhill pretty well and pick up energy, something an ICE car doesn't do. :) I agree current batteries need to get lighter but with enough demand the market will respond, already more research is going into improving batteries than ever before.
4: I'm assuming those who pay for the electricity, just like those who put gas in their car pay for the drilling and transportation of oil/gas around the world.
5: I'm not sure what you mean about redundant batteries, do you mean used/spent batteries? Some parts of those can be recycled, and with some of the newer battery technologies being developed the goal is to have them either last incredibly long amounts of time (1 million miles or more) or be fully recyclable or both. I agree we aren't there yet, but an area worthy of more research and funding and development for future advances.
6: Ok? Not sure what the point is, but as I recall there is no 100% efficient engine, some amount of energy is used to perform work, at least as I recall from physics class a long long time ago...

I doubt a lot of early gasoline adopting owners fully understood the impact of creating a system to support oil and gas usage worldwide, or what sort of political conflicts this would lead to, I'm pretty sure at least 1 of the Gulf wars was over oil. :) So yes, there are always consequences that people, especially early adopters, aren't thinking about, but without early adopters we might not have any change at all.... I concur that we shouldn't legislate something into being, but laws can offer incentives for R&D in areas where they might otherwise not happen due to financial bottom lines and penny pinching.


(BTW with regard to installing a charger in a garage, Tesla does have a program where Tesla provides the charger station hardware for free (called Destination chargers) and the only cost is the installation (electrician) and any electric usage (which can be billed). This is what a lot of hotels and restaurants are starting to take advantage of, you also see it at grocery stores, they want you to come shop there so they are willing to give up a dollar or two in electricity if you stay there charging and shopping in their store.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I think mission E is going to be a giant failure for Porsche. Porsche is not Tesla. They have gambled their entire company on building electric cars by investing in a huge expensive factory in Stuttgart (with only building one electric prototype that I know of). They left the top class in Le Mans - a Porsche tradition of winning for the Formula E racing series. Clearly Porsche intends to go all electric in the future. Tesla has not even made a single dollar of profit yet even though the cars are heavily subsidized.

The Electric car business model for Porsche MAY work if they only build SUVs and Sedans. Sports cars would be dead. Too heavy for cornering well and no one is going to pay that much money for an electric sports car that has no character. If Porsche is ringing their hands now about the huge plummet in 718/911 sales, just wait until they see the numbers on an electric sports car.

They know this fact which is why they canceled (for now), the hybrid 911.

Guys complain about the whoosh of the new turbo 911s but I can't even imagine driving an electric 911 with one gear. Buy your turbo 911s with a manual now! :)
I'm assuming that Porsche is only going to build the Mission E sedan to appeal to would be Model S or Model X buyers, but maybe they will have both car and SUV variants. I don't know what Porsche thinks it is going to enter into Formula E, I've asked, no one can tell me. I concur and all electric sports car might not appeal to sports car purists, although as a counter point Tesla has received enough demand for a new Tesla Roadster that one is in development and used first gen ones are in hot demand and commanding premium prices even though they technically aren't anywhere as good of an electric driving experience as say the Model S or Model X are (from a utility standpoint anyway).

I concur, guys that want exhaust sound aren't switching to electric any time soon... unless, of course, you fake it, but even most electric car owners I talk to think that's pretty cheesy and don't want it. There is something to be said for how quiet the drive is in the Model S. I found the car very comfortable going across country or around town.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I disagree with a lot of things here,
I will try to be as unbiased as possible when it comes to describe Teslas.

I currently own a 2016 Model X 75D, it has all the options but the battery is relatively small.

So what experiences have I got in the last 8 months.

When I got my Model X back in December I was excited honestly because it was amazing how much technology this vehicles have and just the way it looked and opened the doors was mind blowing, obviously i couldnt find anything wrong with it i just loved it.

A couple of months later things started to change a bit when the car started falling apart, loose trim, loose carpet, squeaking doors it was all a mess for every imperfection my love for the tesla was going down.

Recently and for the third time i went to fix a piece of trim that was already repaired twice but this time i asked for a loaner as i never had to use one before, they told me "sure we can give you one" and they gave me a toyota avalon... I could not tell you how mad I was, how can you pay 120k and get a 30k car for a loaner which is not even their brand. Nevermind after me making notice of my disgust the "found" a p90D model x for a loaner.

Fixed it two days later went pick it up and listen, its been a bit under a month since that service and the piece they fixed for the third time popped out again and the carpet too.

So for this first part quality for a 120k vehicle not good.

Now the most controversial part range and long trips!!

When i configured my model x i was told that my 75d would last me 230-260 miles of charge and i was ok considering they told me that i could find superchargers on any trip i do.

Went with it and never noticed how much power i consumed when i was driving in city and i honestly didnt pay too much attention to the consumption display so one day i unplug my car and it say 85% charged 262 miles of range and after a mile i had already lost 3 miles of range so something was not right.

A few days later i have a meeting at Sebring FL and I live in Davie FL 3 hours south ao i had to go up north to sebring 127 miles, i said no problem i have 262 miles and can almost go and come back with a single charge... and that was the moment i didnt know i f&$%# up, i was doing 65 with ac and wipers because it was raining on midpoint to my destination i had 54% so i started to feel uncomfortable and sai im going to see where can I find a supercharger and for my luck there were absolutely none anywhere near not even 30 miles close so my only charging spot near my destination was at my destination Sebring Airport, with my fingers crossed we made it with 3 percent and had to charge it a 40amps because that was the mos we could get, my meeting lasted 30 minutes but my car had charged just 25 miles, I had to wait a bit more than 5 hours to get my charge almost full, since i had a meeting at night at home i had to do something about it so on my way back I drove at 55mph no a/c, no music and all this might be too much but when you have no idea what to do you just think doing that stuff might give you a couple of miles of range. So there is where i started looking at the consumption display and hey hey found something, so you have a line that says rated, another line says average and the other line says your current consumption, so in order to drive those 262 miles you have to drive at 35mph !!!! Can you believe that!? They were not lying about the range as long as you drive it at 35mph so there you got it i cous only drive 130 miles with my charge in trips. Finally got back home with 2% but i was totally done with tesla.

My verdict after 8 months is i am totally disappointed, I dont want the vehicle anymore but i have to keep it because depreciation is very very bad on these, i now know that i cant do long trips if i want to stop charge continue is best case scenario 40 minutes for 130 miles sooo a big no no for me and as soon as I can im changing it.

As for OP im happy you are having fun, and looks like the depreciation took it the other owner so you are fine there.

Hope you have a good expierence with yours.

PS: Sorry for any gramatical or orthographical error English is my second language.
I'm sorry to hear about your negative experiences but I've heard that early Model X's had a fair share of problems due to the complexity of the Model X. This is one of the reasons I did a lot of research and chose a specific model before making a purchase and also chose a CPO car as my first car. Unlike the Model S, the Model X has had significant depreciation in the first year and you see some amazing prices in the CPO market for them. As I understand it the new ones rolling off the assembly line are better due to changes they've made in the last 6 months, but of course that doesn't help you. As far as mileage goes, that's one of the reasons I got the 85kwh battery and if I could afford it would have considered a 90 or 100 for the extra range. The new motors and battery packs in the 3 will be nice as those go over 310 miles. As far as speed goes, I certainly saw less miles available if I drove 80, but I could drive between 65 and 70 and meet the projected estimated range for the car, I suspect the Model X has more wind resistance since it is taller and thus doesn't get as good of mileage going that fast. On our trip I averaged around 300 watt/mi or whatever that nomenclature is shown on the dash gauge. If I punch it around town showing off 0-60 times I'm easily over 400, but normal around town driving is probably in the 260-280 range. BTW my local service center always gives a Tesla loaner, but that might be because they aren't as busy as the service centers in Florida. When I picked my car up at the Tampa service center they were packed in each service bay, don't know how many loaners they might have had available. When the model 3 comes out you might see if you can test one of those for a few days and see if it does better for you and if so consider trading in or something, or else yeah you are probably upside down in it right now if it has the normal first year Model X depreciation hit. I considered a Model X because there would have been more room for my kids stuff, but didn't want a first year car and was concerned about the depreciation I was seeing in the X vs. the S. Anyway, I hope it gets better for you.
 

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Thanks! Good answers, and thankful you wrote out all the answers! Not sure you addressed all my concerns so ...




Cross country to me mean exactly that, driving across the country and back. From the East Cost to the West coast and back, or vice versa, it was typically 9 - 10,000 mile trips, not 1300. Even driving say Boston to Disney World and back ~3,000 miles. Its not just the direct line distance, its also what you do when you get there. So seeing the USA in your Chevrolet doesn't mean just looking at pavement on an Interstate, its also across hundreds of miles in the Dakota, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, etc. etc etc into the boondocks towns of rural America, up into the mountains, and deserts, far from the beaten track.

Its also not 6 stops its might be hundreds of stops, granted yes, one does make pit stops. So just trying to figure it out when one is making a spur of the moment decision to leave the well traveled path what is going to happen. When in some one horse town in North Dakota, say around the National Park there, what happens. This is a very real situation.



Maybe, so my question is in #1. What would one do in the boondocks? I don't see many people driving around the country on vacations and just hanging out on Interstates.



OK, that wasn't the question. The question is what is the real world range considering the weather and hills. You are in the flat land :). Others live in hilly country even though the elevation might not be in the mountains. Just curious. You might not know yet until you get experience.



OK, thats a reasonable answer. They do give you a charge? Good. The flat tire thing will be the same regardless of what car you drive. This is just another issue that can effect consumers that they didn't have to worry about before because they know there are volunteer groups on Interstates that help or AAA or whatever their auto club might be to bring gas.



OK good answer. didn't know you could use 110. But I've lived in places with no garages including apartments when young. Where do they plug in?



Not really. I've been through times when power has been out of a week multiple times. It happens more than I would like to see. It is a MISERABLE experience, especially in hot, humid weather. Water is OK, but no electric. I still had to get up and go the places I had to go. Portable radios worked. Without a generator, forget about your cell phone (unless charging in car), forget about TV, forget about everything - EXCEPT the car.

Its true, local gas stations also did not have power but not all of them everywhere. Drive 20 miles out, and there was gas, fill it up. Charge cell while driving, etc. Come back to miserable experience. Hot, sticky, mess, no where to wash clothes unless drive 20 miles out to laundromat, etc etc etc. Not fun at all.

In this scenario, you are screwed. Just saying. No going to work. Without a generator, food goes bad. No driving to the laundramat. No driving to food store, which all had no power, etc. And it most definitely happens on the East Coast in hurricane season, and sometimes in the winter during blizzards when ice storms come.

I only bring this up because its something that people who live in these kind of areas need to deal with, and its real. And people who live there generally know to go buy gallons of gas for the generator, or just have lawn mower gas around for emergencies, so at least they can drive out of the area.

And if Zombies come, you're really screwed ;)



OK :)



OK, anecdotal story anyway.

Thanks! Good answers as I am trying to absorb all the info.
Not sure what else you still need me to answer here? If you take a cross country trip every month and want to do it as quickly as possible, then a Tesla is probably not for you. Although I saw a couple of guys recently did LA to NY in a Model S in something just over 50 hours which I thought was pretty good....

As far as the natural disaster scenario goes, drive outside the affected area, fully charge up, drive back in and you'll still have enough charge to get back out and charge up again unless electricity is out in a 125mile radius for an extended period of time, so yeah a meteor strike might be a problem... :)

Zombies? The Model S is so aerodynamic I'm pretty sure they would bounce off harmlessly, and of course Teslas have the Bio Weapon Defense filtration so the Zombie virus would be kept out as you drive through the horde.... :)
 

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I believe RandR is correct here. There seems to be some assumption that PAG did this as a business decision. No, as I have said for two years, its all about Emissions. Read it and weep. https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars_en VAG MUST meet the 95g standard or the fines will be huge. They are doing do this save the world because we are all going to burn up. They are doing it because they are mandated to do so. Period. The diesel thing hurt bad. But the mandates are the real issue.

Now the EU has mandated compliance with Paris (IMO a hissy fit over the US pulling out). But far worse, just google it and you will see EU countries, one after the other, calling for the banning of ICE from the EU. Event the UK is in on it now wanting ICE out by 2040.

One needs to look at intent. Government intent. Its all out there. The EU is done with ICE cars, its only a matter of the date. So no, PAG (and VAG) has not gambled anything. Germany is not the US. Its not like they are Ford or GM and can build whatever they want. They are mandated to follow the laws of their country and the European Union.

Everyone needs to open there eyes and see what is going on. They are NOT the US. They MUST follow the regulations on that side of the pond.

As to Tesla, 63,000 Model 3 deposits have been pulled. Tens of thousands of people have cancelled their Tesla Model 3 orders | South China Morning Post. Deposits are being returned slowly. https://www.wired.com/story/canceling-your-model-3-deposit-dont-count-on-a-timely-refund/ It happens, but the $7500 "incentive" evaporates soon. Those $35000 cars, maybe $45000 equipped, will really cost $45,000. Thats higher than the average car sold in the US at $35000. We'll see what happens when the subsidies die. In Georgia, the EV market collapsed. But lets see what happens.

However, in Germany, this isn't an issue of "lets see". Its a done deal.
Chows, just as an FYI there are still more reservations coming in faster than cancellations so I don't think Tesla is that concerned, it is more concerned with trying to meet demand. I concur government regulations in Europe are driving a significant change in the automotive industry.
 

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I've been noticing a lot of Tesla 75 and 75D in Lake Tahoe, where a lot of people vacation from San Francisco. People are bridging the range. It's about 200 miles, but up to 7000 feet elevation. But it started to feel real for me that people are making the trip on the smaller battery.

I think the 75D I test drove recently was a better car in every way than the P85+ I drove 3 years ago, for about $50,000 less MSRP. You can get a base model for $65k and it's now loaded with glass roof, air suspension, 0-60 in 4 seconds, etc. It's absurdly quick even compared to a $70k German sedan, because of the instantaneous nature of the direct drive motor. The reason a C63S AMG gets 30 MPG is it dynamically spins down to a C200 when highway driving. The 1 second it takes to transform makes it feel "slow" when you want to punch it.


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Yes the new 75D with the new improved motors is the bargain of the bunch, it has lots of new features, greater range and now the 0-60 time of the older P85+, although I'd argue the driving dynamics (sportiness/handling) of the P85+ is still better. I thought long and hard about getting a new 75D but with options the way I wanted it was still approaching 100K and I didn't want to swing that, but yes by all means anyone looking for a new one should be considering this model...
 

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Yes the new 75D with the new improved motors is the bargain of the bunch, it has lots of new features, greater range and now the 0-60 time of the older P85+, although I'd argue the driving dynamics (sportiness/handling) of the P85+ is still better. I thought long and hard about getting a new 75D but with options the way I wanted it was still approaching 100K and I didn't want to swing that, but yes by all means anyone looking for a new one should be considering this model...
I appreciate your comments about the RWD. I actually don't like driving in the regenerative braking mode, so maybe I can skip the dual motor. There is a diagram on the Tesla site about how the RWD motor is from the P100D, and the 75D uses a smaller rear motor. From driving the porsche, I have come to appreciate a rear weight biased vehicle. With the pack in the floor, it honestly should not matter.

At work, we have free charging in 15% of the spaces. At least 50 people have Teslas, then there's a few e-Golf, Fiat, Leaf, etc. The new Teslas seem to slurp power at a rate of at least 5 kW per hour, which is awesome (see attached screenshot of S75 charging for 5 hours). I also have "free" charging at home but a space is $400 in SF.

I'm liking the silver exterior with the white interior, and the carbon matte trim. I don't feel I need any other options. I'm a deep skeptic of autonomous driving, even if the assist features are pretty far along. I just don't want to delegate or split my attention to something else. If I bought the car for December delivery, I would quickly get the tax rebate of $7500 in February. There's also the $1000 referral credit. So a $73,100 build gets down to $65k quickly, which is about what we paid for the Boxster.








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I appreciate your comments about the RWD. I actually don't like driving in the regenerative braking mode, so maybe I can skip the dual motor. There is a diagram on the Tesla site about how the RWD motor is from the P100D, and the 75D uses a smaller rear motor. From driving the porsche, I have come to appreciate a rear weight biased vehicle. With the pack in the floor, it honestly should not matter.

At work, we have free charging in 15% of the spaces. At least 50 people have Teslas, then there's a few e-Golf, Fiat, Leaf, etc. The new Teslas seem to slurp power at a rate of at least 5 kW per hour, which is awesome (see attached screenshot of S75 charging for 5 hours). I also have "free" charging at home but a space is $400 in SF.

I'm liking the silver exterior with the white interior, and the carbon matte trim. I don't feel I need any other options. I'm a deep skeptic of autonomous driving, even if the assist features are pretty far along. I just don't want to delegate or split my attention to something else. If I bought the car for December delivery, I would quickly get the tax rebate of $7500 in February. There's also the $1000 referral credit. So a $73,100 build gets down to $65k quickly, which is about what we paid for the Boxster.








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I have a referral code I can give you to get the $1000 off. I actually like autopilot for highway driving, I don't know that I would ever use full self driving even if activated, but the keeping me in the lane and auto passing and guided cruise are all nice to have on the highway. Definitely get the Tech package as Tesla just included more things in it! (Hurry before they take them back out ) The white interior is very nice, I like the midnight silver metallic more than the regular silver, but that's just personal preference. They didn't offer yellow so I bought ultra faded yellow also known as pearl white

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