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Teslas on fire https://elkodaily.com/news/local/truck-hauling-electric-vehicles-catches-fire-on-i--near/article_312d08e4-1250-56a0-bf5f-7d7eadb8c378.html

Double tandem carrier, last trailer on fire, 5 Tesla, 1 Subaru. Driver cut loose the last burning trailer.

"Flames spread to the median and to the wildland area south of the interstate"

Tesla response. Not us.

https://leftlanenews.com/tesla/trailer-carrying-teslas-catches-fire-on-i-80/

Lithium fire is nasty business. FD pushes back against Tesla

"The extreme heat generated by the fire has made it very difficult to determine the cause," said Elko County Fire Protection District's Linda Bingaman. "I am not sure what basis Tesla has on saying it was the carrier so I cannot help you there."

If lithium technology proliferates, you will see more and more of this. Wait until they drag bodies out of a lithium fire, children. It will be the Pintos all over again. Just thinking here.
 

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I’m not saying it will be common but it won’t take many occurrences for a modern day Nader to again claim “unsafe at any speed.”
 
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I’m not saying it will be common but it won’t take many occurrences for a modern day Nader to again claim “unsafe at any speed.”
Compared to the 60s, we have instant communications. Images will be flashed everywhere of a live fire burning and not being able to be put out. Then spontaneously reigniting with people trapped inside.

Has anyone though this through? Today, the number of cars are a pittance. Imagine when two of these cars collide and a fire starts. The more cars on the road, the greater the probability of an occurrence. And then the unscrupulous "if it bleeds it leads" journalists will run with it. And then the books will come out. And then the lawyers will see money before their eyes.

I hope someone figures this out long before then. You would think they would learn from the Pintos. Everyone into cars knows about the Tesla fires.
 

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Compared to the 60s, we have instant communications. Images will be flashed everywhere of a live fire burning and not being able to be put out. Then spontaneously reigniting with people trapped inside.

Has anyone though this through? Today, the number of cars are a pittance. Imagine when two of these cars collide and a fire starts. The more cars on the road, the greater the probability of an occurrence. And then the unscrupulous "if it bleeds it leads" journalists will run with it. And then the books will come out. And then the lawyers will see money before their eyes.

I hope someone figures this out long before then. You would think they would learn from the Pintos. Everyone into cars knows about the Tesla fires.
And everyone into cars knows that another gas powered car just caught fire while I was typing this message, but it NEVER makes the news... myopic at best...

So who here is taking a ride on the Star Hopper? :)
 

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And everyone into cars knows that another gas powered car just caught fire while I was typing this message, but it NEVER makes the news... myopic at best...
Of course. No one cannot argue that gasoline catches fires. Ask the people who died or were injured in the Pinto fires.

But this is different. Lithium reignites spontaneously. There is no way to spin that.
 

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Austria. https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=https://tirol.orf.at/stories/3015765/

Look at the pictures. Tesla catches fires. It takes 2905 gallons of water to put it out and they had to enclose it in a metal container. Lithium can reignite for days afterwards. Of course there are gasoline fires. Always have been. But it doesn't reignite spontaneously.

The spontaneous reignition of lithium and OTA, if lithium based electrons for fuel, actually gains any serious inroads, will be their doom. Once the lawsuits starts, this will be the end. Right now, there are so few of these vehicle around they dont really make national news. For example Why the Fire that Incinerated a Tesla Was Such a Nightmare to Put Out

Look carefully at that special metal container to hold the burned car for some number days. Now think back to recent laws passed where those who intentionally cause forest fires have to pay to put the fire out. Or think about those than hike into the wilderness and have to call in a rescue and end up paying for the rescue. If the number of vehicles proliferates, of course the number of fires will increase. I can easily imagine local FDs, being forced to buy "special" equipment, passing the cost onto those rescued, or ultimately, the maker of the car.

You, the builder knew the fires were hard to put out. You, the consumer, knew the fires were hard to put out. Who pays the burden for equipment and FD's time above and beyond what is normal. YOU KNEW there was risk in a fire that could reignite yet you chose to buy it. The rest of the public does not have to pay to put it out. You pay the burden. Yeah, I can see this coming. :eek:

Or the burden could be on the Insurance Company with costs passed on to the consumers of Lithium tech cars. Somebody is going to pay.
 

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We were just discussing lithium Ion battery recycling, so far a failure. What do I hear? This week's episode of the SGU. For background, these guys drink deep from the koolaid well. Big time on GMO haters, anti-vaxxers, and of course OMG we are all going to do. But I will give credit where credit is do. They present facts, but in IMO then hype the facts as more than what they are, but MUCH better than EV blogs, which to me come across as propaganda or advertising.

Facts. The reference article is It’s time to get serious about recycling lithium-ion batteries The discussion centers around today's efforts. They do mention the Gov lab we talked about a few post ago but the facts are dismal. The predict 140m EVs world wide in 10 years? There are 270 registered cars in the US alone nm the world. There is an estimate 1B cars in the world. If they can't crack 14%% in a decade, that's not exactly making a dent. Yet they seemed excited.

Most of the Li-on batteries are in electronics, NOT IN CARS. Virtual nothing is recycled. 2 - 5% location dependent. Recycling also creates hazardous waste and cost more than the output making it financially in feasible.

Well we were a few weeks ahead of them. So I guess are discussion is fruitful for knowledge sake.
 

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We were just discussing lithium Ion battery recycling, so far a failure. What do I hear? This week's episode of the SGU. For background, these guys drink deep from the koolaid well. Big time on GMO haters, anti-vaxxers, and of course OMG we are all going to do. But I will give credit where credit is do. They present facts, but in IMO then hype the facts as more than what they are, but MUCH better than EV blogs, which to me come across as propaganda or advertising.

Facts. The reference article is It’s time to get serious about recycling lithium-ion batteries The discussion centers around today's efforts. They do mention the Gov lab we talked about a few post ago but the facts are dismal. The predict 140m EVs world wide in 10 years? There are 270 registered cars in the US alone nm the world. There is an estimate 1B cars in the world. If they can't crack 14%% in a decade, that's not exactly making a dent. Yet they seemed excited.

Most of the Li-on batteries are in electronics, NOT IN CARS. Virtual nothing is recycled. 2 - 5% location dependent. Recycling also creates hazardous waste and cost more than the output making it financially in feasible.

Well we were a few weeks ahead of them. So I guess are discussion is fruitful for knowledge sake.
I'm really more worried about all the plastics being dumped into the ocean than I am recycling Lithium batteries or that Lithium batteries "might" recombust. I suspect Lithium batteries are a bridge to whatever the next newer, better battery/capacitor/mrfusion tech happens to be. Meanwhile we are filling up our oceans with items that were supposed to be recycled but are getting dumped instead, to me that's a more pressing problem.
 

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Austria. https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=https://tirol.orf.at/stories/3015765/

Look at the pictures. Tesla catches fires. It takes 2905 gallons of water to put it out and they had to enclose it in a metal container. Lithium can reignite for days afterwards. Of course there are gasoline fires. Always have been. But it doesn't reignite spontaneously.

The spontaneous reignition of lithium and OTA, if lithium based electrons for fuel, actually gains any serious inroads, will be their doom. Once the lawsuits starts, this will be the end. Right now, there are so few of these vehicle around they dont really make national news. For example Why the Fire that Incinerated a Tesla Was Such a Nightmare to Put Out

Look carefully at that special metal container to hold the burned car for some number days. Now think back to recent laws passed where those who intentionally cause forest fires have to pay to put the fire out. Or think about those than hike into the wilderness and have to call in a rescue and end up paying for the rescue. If the number of vehicles proliferates, of course the number of fires will increase. I can easily imagine local FDs, being forced to buy "special" equipment, passing the cost onto those rescued, or ultimately, the maker of the car.

You, the builder knew the fires were hard to put out. You, the consumer, knew the fires were hard to put out. Who pays the burden for equipment and FD's time above and beyond what is normal. YOU KNEW there was risk in a fire that could reignite yet you chose to buy it. The rest of the public does not have to pay to put it out. You pay the burden. Yeah, I can see this coming. :eek:

Or the burden could be on the Insurance Company with costs passed on to the consumers of Lithium tech cars. Somebody is going to pay.
BTW at 1500 gallons per minute from a fire hydrant, that means it takes about 2 minutes to put a car out, seems reasonable to me. :) :) :)
 

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Plastic? Talk to China about that, not the US

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/09/24/190981611


Dumped by Chinese merchant ships.
I wasn't pointing fingers, I was just saying that I think right now all the garbage being dumped in the oceans is a bigger problem for humanity than lithium batteries that might re-ignite. It does bring up an interesting point though, if there are laws on the books to prevent dumping in the oceans and those laws are violated, who prosecutes and where? what are the penalties? how do you enforce those penalties? Worth going to war over? If you think about it, wars have been fought over resources before such as oil or land, what if some country is destroying our oceans/resources and won't stop, do you go to war over it in an attempt to make them stop? Might make for a good sci-fi movie, the Enviro-Wars or something like that...
 

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I wasn't pointing fingers
You should be though. China produces 27% of the "emissions" The US half that. Places like the UK? They don't even make the top 15 countries. Yet extremists like Extinction Rebellion are blocking DC streets and trying to shutdown England. England contributes a pittance to the overall picture. Waste of time. I'm sure this helps their cause


if there are laws on the books to prevent dumping in the oceans and those laws are violated, who prosecutes and where? what are the penalties? how do you enforce those penalties?
There are no laws in the way we think, like murder, robbery, etc. There is a convention and its MARPOL. These are treaties enforceable by the signing country. Penalties look like fines. Here is a recent example Greek Shipping Company Charged for MARPOL Violations Cruise line has the biggest fine $40M.

However, thats not in the open sea. Countries do whatever countries want to do. For example, Syria signed the OPWC (Chemical Weapons ban treaty). It appears they used gas twice, under Pres Obama and Trump. Pres Obama did nothing. Pres Trump did attack them in response. But there lies the rub.

There is no global government. There is no global enforcement. Signees can, and have, done anything they want under these treaties and no one can stop them. There is historical precedent. IMO these kinds of treaties, and the UN too, are jokes. What's the point of having a UN when another permanent member of the UN Security Council and veto anything? Its pointless.

So China can do whatever it wants, wherever it wants. It can dump twice the emissions in the air and merchants ship can dump trash and nobody is going to police the waterways. No one is going to stop them. Just like the next government overthrown will use chemical weapons and no one will stop them. The US cannot be the policeman for the world. IOW, while they might have some financial teeth in countries that want to enforce these treaties, IRL any country can laugh at the effort in international waters.

And I doubt there will ever be a global government unless little green men land, attack, and humanity fights for its existence. Then once defeated, they will go back to the old way of attacking each other. Somewhere, somehow, someone will rise up again and want to control the world. History always repeats itself and today many people think the world began they day they were born, not learning from the past.

Worth going to war over? If you think about it, wars have been fought over resources before such as oil or land, what if some country is destroying our oceans/resources and won't stop, do you go to war over it in an attempt to make them stop? Might make for a good sci-fi movie, the Enviro-Wars or something like that...
I've repeatedly said that nations have fought over natural resources as long as people have figured out you need them. Japan didn't bomb Pearl Harbor for fun. They wanted to keep the US from meddling with their plan for asian oil fields. But these wars were to preserve the sovereignty of the country or to take over the world.

Going to war over polluting the ocean on plastic. Not going to happen, ever. It could happen for a biological weapon or toxin that poisons the sea life that was life sustaining. For example the Japanese depend upon a lot of seafood or the seafood, lobsters, etc in the Grand Banks. Go poison those fish? Yeah, I can see the US kicking some major butt over that. But plastic? You got to be kidding.

This is the problem the "we are all going to die from CO2" people have. They can't sell it. You cannot articulate or educate the public about "computer simulations" that predict future events, especially since at least the computer nerds know Garbage In, Garbage Out. I've said this before. ... Its too Far out. Its not tangible. They can't touch it, feel it, and it has ZERO effect on them. And the amount of hypocrisy is astounding. Yet trust us. We are all going to die :rolleyes: Just ignore how we live, how we fly, the boats we use, and where we buy houses AND the number of houses we own. Don't look at my "x" houses.

Now you want to sell the public on plastic pollution and to go to war? NEVER going to happen. I don't do predictions but this one I will predict (If I'm wrong, I'm wrong) but it won't happen, ever. The US public cannot see it, touch it, feel it, and PSAs like "think about the xyz" have no effect on people's daily lives. The public doesn't read environmental blogs, EV blogs, even car blogs. They got more important things to worry about in their own lives. I suspect many are fed up with the media, all media and no longer believe much of anything fed to them.

True story. We do not have a plastic straw ban. However, one restaurant we frequent, not a cheap place to eat, maybe $20 each for lunch, no drinks tried this.

First they asked if I wanted a straw. Yes, I do. Reluctantly they gave them out.
After a month or so the waiter said they had to ask but just handed them out.
Today they just hand them out.

I guess enough customers were furious enough to take their business elsewhere.

This does not mean I condone throwing any trash into any body of water. That's gross. But people are people the world over. There used to be a time there where only two superpowers, now one. But nuclear weapons have proliferated to the point that you really do not want to start a war of a bunch of plastic. It could end very badly for everyone. At least then, the endless whining about CO2 would be over.

Now if only CA cities like SF can solve their Poop problem. Maybe the US should start in its own cities before trying to police the world.
 

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This is why you should worry about China and not places that have virtually zero impact on anything.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-britain-protests/over-300-arrests-as-london-climate-change-activists-vow-more-protests-idUSKBN1WN113

"Police said 152 arrests had been made on Tuesday, taking the total number over the two days to 471 ... The group wants Britain to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025"

None of this matter because the UK isn't big enough to matter. China is. Maybe this group should go protest in Beijing and see what happens. If they went to net zero it would actually matter. Then again, they might not like the results.

Hence the plastic in the ocean. Target the polluters. See what happens. No one will go to war over plastic. Nuclear winters will make "climate change" look like a firecracker. And its get real cold with all the soot in the air.
 

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Re the Extinction Rebellion rabble - it seems to me that the first rule regarding protest movements is don't piss off the people you need on your side to actually change things. They certainly have failed in that effort.
 

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I'm really more worried about all the plastics being dumped into the ocean than I am recycling Lithium batteries or that Lithium batteries "might" recombust. I suspect Lithium batteries are a bridge to whatever the next newer, better battery/capacitor/mrfusion tech happens to be. Meanwhile we are filling up our oceans with items that were supposed to be recycled but are getting dumped instead, to me that's a more pressing problem.
K-Man, I am not sure why when a valid point is brought up you seem to regularly choose to point in another direction... sure plastic is bad but that is not the point, so is incorrectly disposing of these batteries or any electronics.

So 'before' these batteries and their disposal gets completely out of hand it needs to be addressed both by the manufacturers and consumers because as we have found with plastics, 'out of sight' is not necessarily 'out of mind'.
 
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