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We were just discussing lithium Ion battery recycling, so far a failure. What do I hear? This week's episode of the SGU. For background, these guys drink deep from the koolaid well. Big time on GMO haters, anti-vaxxers, and of course OMG we are all going to do. But I will give credit where credit is do. They present facts, but in IMO then hype the facts as more than what they are, but MUCH better than EV blogs, which to me come across as propaganda or advertising.

Facts. The reference article is It’s time to get serious about recycling lithium-ion batteries The discussion centers around today's efforts. They do mention the Gov lab we talked about a few post ago but the facts are dismal. The predict 140m EVs world wide in 10 years? There are 270 registered cars in the US alone nm the world. There is an estimate 1B cars in the world. If they can't crack 14%% in a decade, that's not exactly making a dent. Yet they seemed excited.

Most of the Li-on batteries are in electronics, NOT IN CARS. Virtual nothing is recycled. 2 - 5% location dependent. Recycling also creates hazardous waste and cost more than the output making it financially in feasible.

Well we were a few weeks ahead of them. So I guess are discussion is fruitful for knowledge sake.
Chows, thanks for this link, very interesting stuff, simply amazing about all of the components that go into battery production, let alone the political side of the story where for example where most of the Cobalt comes from, I wonder if the 'Greeners' would be happy if they knew their batteries were somewhat like 'blood diamonds'?

IMHO, this problem (battery recycling) need to be tackled right now, no manufacturer should be allowed to push this off to the government (peoples tax dollars), they need to take ownership of the cost and processes to keep this stuff out of the landfill, all of them Porsche, Tesla, Nissan etc, all of them...
 

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Interesting. Now I understand why the prices for the previously announced Turbo and Turbo S were so much higher than expected - it is a pretty typical Porsche pricing strategy. Since this is the 4S, one would expect a Base model to come in around $100k CDN, or about $85k USD. Definitely competitive
 

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K-Man, I am not sure why when a valid point is brought up you seem to regularly choose to point in another direction... sure plastic is bad but that is not the point, so is incorrectly disposing of these batteries or any electronics.

So 'before' these batteries and their disposal gets completely out of hand it needs to be addressed both by the manufacturers and consumers because as we have found with plastics, 'out of sight' is not necessarily 'out of mind'.
I did not say I wasn't worried about Lithium recycling, I am, but it already seems to be moving along in a positive direction and to this point has not had as big of an impact on the environment, hence listing plastics as a more pressing priority. I'm just saying if you gave me a top 10 list of things to go tackle, lithium recycling would be lower than plastics at this time, but yes they would both be on the list, did not mean to imply otherwise.
 

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Pricing and specs of of the "base" Taycan 4s in Canada announced...at $119k Canadian this would likely price it under $100k U.S. Look out Tesla, Porsche is coming for you and BOTH gloves are off. https://driving.ca/porsche/taycan/auto-news/news/this-lower-priced-porsche-taycan-is-the-real-tesla-killer
The article I saw was priced at $104,000 in the US with the SMALLER battery. Possibly UNDER 200 miles of range on the EPA test cycle (and real world driving). Slower than a Model 3, less passenger room than a Model 3, only 1/2-2/3rds the range of a Model 3, yet nearly double the price before options. If that's gloves off, I'd hate to see gloves on :) :) :) :)

You could get a fully loaded fully optioned ludicrous mode Model S with FSD for $108k that would have more than DOUBLE the range and 2x faster.


I understand Porsche has to offer something at a lower price point to try and sell these cars, but the Taycan 4S is significantly more expensive than a Tesla Model 3 while being significantly less useful. (less room, less power, less tech for starters...) This really begs the question of which Tesla model is Porsche trying to compete with?
 

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FYI Press release Taycan 4S

530HP with bigger battery. 0 - 60 4.0 range 277m with big battery. Configurator is up on .de site

$124K stripped with bigger battery but we know you can't do a direct conversion like that.

Reddit, from German VOX. Watch the video

https://www.reddit.com/r/Autos/comments/dhrttq
I'd ignore the comments.

Another thing being heavily discussed, at least in the German forum, is the 800V thing. Makes a big difference. Time is money.
 

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The article I saw was priced at $104,000 in the US with the SMALLER battery. Possibly UNDER 200 miles of range on the EPA test cycle (and real world driving). Slower than a Model 3, less passenger room than a Model 3, only 1/2-2/3rds the range of a Model 3, yet nearly double the price before options. If that's gloves off, I'd hate to see gloves on :) :) :) :)

You could get a fully loaded fully optioned ludicrous mode Model S with FSD for $108k that would have more than DOUBLE the range and 2x faster.


I understand Porsche has to offer something at a lower price point to try and sell these cars, but the Taycan 4S is significantly more expensive than a Tesla Model 3 while being significantly less useful. (less room, less power, less tech for starters...) This really begs the question of which Tesla model is Porsche trying to compete with?
As is always the case with Porsche, performance for the dollar isn't the primary selling feature. While the Model 3 is quicker (although in my world anything under 4 seconds 0-60 is pretty much moot) the Taycan has about 10x the cachet and will almost certainly have better build quality. Less tech is a HUGE advantage from my perspective; from the ridiculously large screen to the over-the-air upgrades, Tesla has chosen a path that I don't value; pare the tech down to the bare minimum and leave me be, thanks. And while I may be in the minority, I believe that maintaining a dealer network and competition for customers' purchase and service dollars is better for consumers in the long run. At any rate, I think the Taycan competitor is the Model S, and sales will tell the story in short order.
 

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As is always the case with Porsche, performance for the dollar isn't the primary selling feature. While the Model 3 is quicker (although in my world anything under 4 seconds 0-60 is pretty much moot) the Taycan has about 10x the cachet and will almost certainly have better build quality. Less tech is a HUGE advantage from my perspective; from the ridiculously large screen to the over-the-air upgrades, Tesla has chosen a path that I don't value; pare the tech down to the bare minimum and leave me be, thanks. And while I may be in the minority, I believe that maintaining a dealer network and competition for customers' purchase and service dollars is better for consumers in the long run. At any rate, I think the Taycan competitor is the Model S, and sales will tell the story in short order.
You WANT a network of "Stealerships" er uh Dealerships? Why on Earth?

Do you like the haggling over the price of a car where the salesperson has to go talk to their manager and they try to sneak in undercoatings and GAP insurance to further increase the price of the car? I know of no one that enjoys all the crap you have to put up with when buying a car at a traditional dealership.

Do you like giving up your time to go to a dealership for service? Or that you have a bunch of regularly scheduled service visits where they try to upsell you on more service items like cabin air filters and logo valve stems??

You can buy a Tesla from your phone if you want, if you want to test drive there are Tesla stores you can visit. No haggling, no added items to the paperwork, clean simple, fair.
Need service? For most things Tesla can send remote service to you at your home or office, no need for you to take time out of your day to drive to a dealership, no upselling of items. If it is something more serious you can drop your car at the Tesla service center and get a Tesla loaner.

You really need to experience the difference before you "poo poo" it.

BTW don't for a moment think that having 12 Ford dealerships in a town means you have a bunch of competition between them, they all have the same baseline, it is just a matter of which dealership is going to screw you the least. Ford would sell you cars directly in a heartbeat if it wasn't for all the dealership and franchise lobbies out there and laws on the books preventing them from doing so. Any competition exists between brands, so the Ford dealer does have to compete with the Chevy dealer, but do you really need dozens of each in your city? The "old" model is broken, has been for a long time, and is NOT good for consumers....
 

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FYI Press release Taycan 4S

530HP with bigger battery. 0 - 60 4.0 range 277m with big battery. Configurator is up on .de site

$124K stripped with bigger battery but we know you can't do a direct conversion like that.

Reddit, from German VOX. Watch the video

https://www.reddit.com/r/Autos/comments/dhrttq
I'd ignore the comments.

Another thing being heavily discussed, at least in the German forum, is the 800V thing. Makes a big difference. Time is money.
That video is hilarious, Tesla driver chooses a bad line and decides not to try and correct it. :) :) :) of course we are missing the specs on each car, conditions, drivers, etc. but hey makes for good Reddit fodder... would you like to see videos of my Model 3 SMOKING Porsches at this last weekend's Lake Garnett Grand Prix Autocross??? I can post those too.... :)
 

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You WANT a network of "Stealerships" er uh Dealerships? Why on Earth?

Do you like the haggling over the price of a car where the salesperson has to go talk to their manager and they try to sneak in undercoatings and GAP insurance to further increase the price of the car? I know of no one that enjoys all the crap you have to put up with when buying a car at a traditional dealership.

Do you like giving up your time to go to a dealership for service? Or that you have a bunch of regularly scheduled service visits where they try to upsell you on more service items like cabin air filters and logo valve stems??

You can buy a Tesla from your phone if you want, if you want to test drive there are Tesla stores you can visit. No haggling, no added items to the paperwork, clean simple, fair.
Need service? For most things Tesla can send remote service to you at your home or office, no need for you to take time out of your day to drive to a dealership, no upselling of items. If it is something more serious you can drop your car at the Tesla service center and get a Tesla loaner.

You really need to experience the difference before you "poo poo" it.

BTW don't for a moment think that having 12 Ford dealerships in a town means you have a bunch of competition between them, they all have the same baseline, it is just a matter of which dealership is going to screw you the least. Ford would sell you cars directly in a heartbeat if it wasn't for all the dealership and franchise lobbies out there and laws on the books preventing them from doing so. Any competition exists between brands, so the Ford dealer does have to compete with the Chevy dealer, but do you really need dozens of each in your city? The "old" model is broken, has been for a long time, and is NOT good for consumers....
The problem with the Tesla direct-to-consumer model in my view as opposed to dealerships is that it homogenizes the customer experience and removes the pleasurable, social elements of doing business. In Tesla's case, the 3 visits I have made to showrooms left me shaking my head at how vapid the staff on the showroom floor were, and how clueless they were when asked anything about the cars that wasn't already on the website. Even If my personal observations weren't that all Teslas are at best uninspired from a design perspective and don't meet any of my transportation needs, I have zero interest in buying a vehicle from my phone, or from a salesperson that knows nothing about me and who really doesn't care who I am or what my needs might be. Reducing vehicle purchasing - and other major purchases - to a phone tor Web transaction clearly works for some people, but I actually enjoy the showroom visits, doing the dance with salespeople and putting together a deal that works for both parties.

Servicing my cars has never been something I considered an inconvenience (drop it off, chat with service folks, take a loaner car or shuttle), and perhaps because over the last 45 years of driving I haven't owned an American-made car, I have never encountered any up-selling. I have, of course, experienced poor service, but that's a result of uncaring, incompetent or poorly trained staff. I expect the folks running Tesla service centres have the same issues attracting top-tier technicians as other manufacturers.

Maybe other Planet-9 members experiences are different, but when I visit my dealership for parts, service (rarely, as I do my own routine maintenance and some more challenging DIY jobs) or to check out what's on the showroom floor most of the staff know me by sight, and many by name. I've raced Solo 1 with the General Manager, known the Sales Manager for 20 years (he was even a guest at my wedding last year), and had lunch with the Service manager to dig a little deeper into a less-than-100% service experience. The last 911 I had was sold to a purchaser 2500 km away and the Business manager facilitated the shipping on behalf of the buyer (I dropped the car at the dealer where the shipper collected it), not making a dime on the transaction.

In my experience, business relationships are what you make of them. I don't begrudge any of the people in the dealership making a living at what they do, and can't imagine that the Tesla purchasing and servicing model would work for me on any level. Even if the Taycan and future vehicles' cost-performance ratio is less attractive than what Tesla offers, if I'm ever in the market for an EV It will likely be a Porsche.
 

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You WANT a network of "Stealerships" er uh Dealerships? Why on Earth?

Do you like the haggling over the price of a car where the salesperson has to go talk to their manager and they try to sneak in undercoatings and GAP insurance to further increase the price of the car? I know of no one that enjoys all the crap you have to put up with when buying a car at a traditional dealership.
The problem with the Tesla direct-to-consumer model in my view as opposed to dealerships is that it homogenizes the customer experience and removes the pleasurable, social elements of doing business. ... Servicing my cars has never been something I considered an inconvenience (drop it off, chat with service folks, take a loaner car or shuttle),

Maybe other Planet-9 members experiences are different, but when I visit my dealership for parts, service (rarely, as I do my own routine maintenance and some more challenging DIY jobs) or to check out what's on the showroom floor most of the staff know me by sight, and many by name. In my experience, business relationships are what you make of them. I don't begrudge any of the people in the dealership making a living at what they do
Having bought many cars, this is a subject I know a bit about. The use of the word "Stealerships" is relatively new, at least that I see, in the last decade. But not without cause. But in terms of new car buying, experience matters.

About 18 months or so I bought new washer/dryer. I looked up the specs online. Looks up the options and what they did. I made sure the dimensions fit and read the online reviews. Does this sound familiar? I can see the house from the blueprint. My wife needs to see the house. If it were me alone, I would have just ordered online and had them deliver it. But we went to the store. The employees were useless. I knew more than they did, particularly about the problems people had found. There is nothing worse for salesmen than a knowledgeable customer.

If you don't know what Carmax is, its a big car seller, new and used. The price is the price. No haggling. I once did the same thing as the washer/dryer. Did the homework, picked the options I wanted. And just like the washer/dryer, knew the price beforehand. I didn't need to drive the car, it was a washer/dryer, just another major appliance. But my wife went for the test drive. The deal was done in minutes. Just sign the paperwork. Thats how appliances work. They are all the same. Some people can see the blueprint, know the end result, two clicks and bought. Others, want to touch and feel. Then buy. But in the end, they are all washers/dryers.

When I was young, I viewed the salesmen dance as an annoyance, hated it like you said. I'd know the true price, know exactly what I wanted, and one of the first cars I bought told the salesmen to get the manager because I wasn't going to play the game. "Oh no" can't do that. So I told him the price I would pay. It was a washing machine. There were many like it. They all looked the same, did the same thing, the only thing different was the color. He said he couldn't do that price after doing the salesmen/manager dance. So I walked. Salesmen was in shock. Its only a couple of hundred!!! (Cars were cheap back then). I didn't care. I was young and annoyed, playing stupid games. There are many dealerships. There are many different washing machines to choose from. Basically, they are all alike. CYA. A few days later the salesmen called (this was back when people actually used telephones as telephones.). We had a deal. One of the last cars I bought, much older now, I did the same thing. This time the manager looked at me, knew I wouldn't play the dance/game, and dealt directly with me. The salesmen just did the "delivery". The moral of that story is that I have no time for playing games when buying washing machines.

This article is from 2014 but as valid today as five years ago There's simply no app for emotions, says Porsche marketing boss
A marketing article about how Porsche sells in the UK. You can read it but the main point is what gcurnew is saying. By now we all know the Porsche designated psychographics profiles. They admit the Proud Patrons want to go to the shop, talk about their cars. There is nothing like looking at them, sitting in them, thinking about what your next purchase will be. More marketing material about Porsche
How customer journey mapping is driving Porsche's success

(BTW, how do we control these fonts, font sizes, and color? This is messed up taking features away.)

“The key for us at Porsche is to build personal lifetime relationships, and the key to successful relationships is to get to know people and treat everyone as an individual,” ... head of customer experience and customer strategy at Porsche, ...“A one-off transaction is easy. But a lifetime relationship requires effort.”

Or translated. Buying appliances is simple. Some people flit from dealer to dealer, just worried about the lowest price. But for some, its a lifetime relationship and the brand wants to keep that relationship.

Like gcurnew, when I go to the Porsche dealer, they know exactly who I am. They know what I've bought since my first Porsche many years ago even though I bought it elsewhere, how much I spent, etc. They know me by name, and my wife, on sight (which might be a good or bad thing). I always chit chat with the manager and service personnel. They always ask about her if I am alone. Always. I BS with the salesmen. Some are racing fans. We talk the same language. They have few seats, a handful for waiting. I'm always handed another Porsche to drive no questions asked.

Prior to the Macan, they would always just take me for a problem, no appointment. I think the Macan has caused service backlogs so I now have to make an appointment but am treated the same. With the Cayman, $4K problem came up way out of warranty. They quickly offered to pay 50% on goodwill. They know what they are doing and know exactly the potential for future profits because they know I will be back. I always get a PCA discount too and that was substantial getting PSE installed. That discount mattered.

But, when I go to a washing machine service, the place is huge. Forget about a free loaner. There are 50 - 70 sitting and waiting, watching that inane HGTV watching paint dry. There never give you an update on how the service is going. If you don't get there at 7 AM, all the "free" breakfast is gone. You get what you pay for.

Upselling is a non-issue. I understand the business. They are not going to upsell me on the vehicle or options. I probably know more about what is going on than they do. I think they hate the Internet rumor mill. For upsell of dealer sold packages after the sale, they are just doing their job. Let them do their job. Be nice, and just say no thank you but I appreciate your time. That's not condescending but being polite and letting them work. They know they have to work the script. If you're not naive, you know the game. They have a job to do. We want these people employed. The more people working, the better it is for everyone.

When I go to the Porsche dealer, there is alway something interesting on the floor. Some are run of the mill 911 Turbo S, GT2, GT3, but some a customer cars, on display, unique cars you rarely see outside of a PCA event. When I had the Xpel put on my 911, it was done on the showroom floor.

I too do not begrudge the dealership making a living. They are people just like us. I know the costs. I understand their overhead. They treat me well so I treat them well. That's how personal relationships work. Washing machines have no personal relationship. The personnel change all the time. You don't know who is there from year to year. Meanwhile, at Porsche dealer they seem to stay forever and just move up the food chain. Or, they move between dealerships, back and forth, a small community. Granted, I have a half dozen dealerships in easy driving distance.

Parts are different. I refuse to pay the outrageous prices for Porsche branded anything when I know full well they are just rebranding other companies products and upping the price. The same is true of OEM parts. If I want something, I just order it online. There are many Porsche dealers now selling the exact same part online. They all compete with each other and you can find a variance in prices. Competition is good. Does Tesla dealers do that? Oh wait, there are no Tesla dealerships. Which brings us to this.

BTW don't for a moment think that having 12 Ford dealerships in a town means you have a bunch of competition between them, they all have the same baseline, it is just a matter of which dealership is going to screw you the least. Ford would sell you cars directly in a heartbeat if it wasn't for all the dealership and franchise lobbies out there and laws on the books preventing them from doing so. Any competition exists between brands, so the Ford dealer does have to compete with the Chevy dealer, but do you really need dozens of each in your city? The "old" model is broken, has been for a long time, and is NOT good for consumers....
Yes, its true that all the same dealerships for the same brand might have the same wholesale cost, but each department is different. I can say with 100% certainty, you can buy the same part from different dealers at different prices. Worse, the internet price can be cheaper than the OTC sale. Some charge for shipping. Others do not. I've had parts shipped free.

Do you really need many dealerships? Yes, you do. The more dealerships the better it is for all America. While the CARMAX model is "the price is the price" and I gather so is Tesla, I can see that attraction. Its buying a washing machine, just more expensive. But the price does vary greatly. Some dealerships do have sales. Some dealerships have LARGE lot inventories. Others have little. Many car sales are spur of the moment. Your car dies, you buy a lot car. I have dozens upon dozens of Ford/Chevy dealers around. Admittedly, I haven't bought an American car for 40 years? Can't remember. But when I was looking at SUVs, I did look at US SUVs. The inventory was massive. One dealer didn't have the color my wife wanted, I just went to the one in the next town.

Variety is good. Choice is better. The franchise model is broken? I have to disagree. Sorry K-Man but while I do understand the appeal of two clicks and buy something, much better for the economy is the large number of personnel supported by the business. The land alone is worth $$$. The Auto parks are huge. Cars constantly flow in and out. Surrounding the auto parks are businesses that work off the auto parks: the fast food chains, the gas stations, the places people go during lunch time to run errands, the car wash next door. The more people employed, the better it is for the USA. Unemployment today is at all time low for everyone, all kinds of people, and part of those jobs are employed by auto dealerships from mechanics to sales personnel, to the business types. All of them are people too. And they are working, making a living, and all on a system where you can walk into a car store, sit and talk, create a relationship if you choose too. All the people working, directly for the dealerships or in support of the dealerships.

Sure there are many Ford Dealerships. So what? They are good for the economy. Good for the IRS to take in money. Good for the GDP. Good for America. While true, lobbing for the franchise model probably did exist and continue to exist. So what? Both models can co-exist. This is not a zero sum game. Its not either/or. Want to click and buy, then do so. Want to go to a dealership? Do so. In the end, the more business that exist, the more people employed, the more people doing business in the indirect way because of the dealership, the more competition, the better it is for all Americans.

Trying to reduce the number of business is bad for the US economy. I have no problem with the Carmax model or the Tesla model or the franchise model. Let the free market decide for itself what it wants. Let the consumer decide what it wants. We want more people working, more people spending money, more choices, more car dealerships, more mechanics, etc. All these people feeding the economy.
 

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I forgot to mention several of your items.

Do you like giving up your time to go to a dealership for service? Or that you have a bunch of regularly scheduled service visits where they try to upsell you on more service items like cabin air filters and logo valve stems??
I've never encountered, with any car brand, what you mention. Upsell on service? Never. Unless you mean to do more service than what's in the maintenance manual? If you do that, then thats your fault for not reading the manual.

Need service? For most things Tesla can send remote service to you at your home or office, no need for you to take time out of your day to drive to a dealership, no upselling of items. If it is something more serious you can drop your car at the Tesla service center and get a Tesla loaner. ... The "old" model is broken, has been for a long time, and is NOT good for consumers....
One of the EV selling points seems to be how simple service is. The motor is just an electrical motor, no where near as complicate as internal combustion. True. What the EV advocates don't tell you is how BAD that is for the economy. A conversion of the transportation sector with the Tesla model would mean the loss of how many jobs?

How many mechanics?
How many salesmen?
How many sales managers?
How many receptionists?
How many service managers?
How many supply chain personnel such as those building the parts, mining the ore for the parts, management the transportation from Point of creation of the part, to final destination including how many logistics personnel such as driving the trucks, managing the parts warehouses, picking the parts?

Add it all up. How many jobs will be lost? How much money will be lost? How much damage would it do to the GDP? How many taxes will not be collected? Its complicated. Don't say "new jobs will appear". Where? If the components are not complex, that means less parts, less creation of parts, less factories to manufacture parts, less of a supply and logistics chain, etc. Everything is tied together.

Why don't the EV blogs talk about that? 🤔

Farther up this thread, I was tracking last winter how many EVs I've seen. I have nothing against them. Electrons for fuel should compete with Hydrogen, hydrocarbons, propane or anything else. Free enterprise. I wondered why I see so few. I know there is one Model X somewhere within a mile. I see it all the time. EV penetration into the local market, beyond the Model X has risen 200 - 300%. See how statistics work. 300% of nothing is still nothing. I wonder why and found out local EV registrations are about .4% of the cars register. That's why I don't see any, they don't exist. Considering the government is highly liberal with reserved parking in some public places, I find this very strange. Why hasn't the public bought into this? I really don't know and can only guess that they don't care.

I think the public is tired of all the screeching, screaming, "we are all going to die!", the drama, the anger. There is only so much people can absorb and when push comes to shove, they just don't care. Maybe one day, if they ever sell $20,000 EVs with a 400 mile range with a 5 min fill time for the electrons, "maybe" you will get the mass public to care. Until then, all the free reserved parking won't matter a bit. These cars today (The Teslas and Porsche EVs) are expensive appliances for the upper middle class and the rich. At least that's my opinion.
 

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Source video. Logging problem with flash. I'm telling you, a smart phone on wheels is going to be a massive problem and its going to get worse. That's not doom and gloom. That's experience.

 

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Looks like Tesla has an old model problem.
Frankly, this is not a Tesla problem, IMO. This is a Silicon Valley mentality problem. And, in my irrelevant opinion, it (Silicon Valley mentality) is the root of most of the current problems we have around.

Very briefly, as I keep saying for more than a decade, if computer programmers would be required to carry a backpack on their backs for all the time they are awake and to add 1 lb of physical weight for every 1 Mb of junk they leave either in their code or as the result of their code ... we would have a MUCH different world today. I don't know all the details, but I can tell you that "over the air update" would not exist for sure.

Once a person fine-combs their code 10 times (instead of none) and tests results of their code 100 times (instead of calling it "beta" and expecting feedback from guinea pigs), they would find the issues WAY before they release a product. Sure, we would get a new phone that would cost 10x more than they do now every 5 years instead of every 11 months and a new OS every 15 years instead of every 5 ... but I miss to see how is that a negative.

Finding a solution for storage of a "weightless substance with no dimensions" is terribly easy. Then that stupid, arcane and anachronistic POS "Law" from the last millennium has to come in to pi$$ on every San Jose party. That would be The Second Law Of Thermodynamics. Or, even more arcane, The One Ring That Rules Them All.
 

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Very briefly, as I keep saying for more than a decade, if computer programmers would be required to carry a backpack on their backs for all the time they are awake and to add 1 lb of physical weight for every 1 Mb of junk they leave either in their code or as the result of their code ... we would have a MUCH different world today. I don't know all the details, but I can tell you that "over the air update" would not exist for sure.
The problem is massive data logging and the car wasn't even driving. You're saying its all for debug purposes?

If so, then the public is doing beta testing, just like they do for IOS but that still doesn't fix the issue that the software people should have a minimal understand of the physical characteristics of the hardware. Flash drives have a finite life.
 

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Flash drives have a finite life.
Anybody remember the Compact Flash sized hard drives? Or at least making the flash drives replaceable instead of soldered.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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Flash drives have a finite life.
Not only, even Time itself has a finite life. Granted, very long life, but finite nonetheless. As I said, One Ring To Rule Them All.

Silicon Valley doesn't like it because they can move as fast as they want and break everything in their sight, but good ole Second will always catch up with them and make them look stupid.
 

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Having bought many cars, this is a subject I know a bit about. The use of the word "Stealerships" is relatively new, at least that I see, in the last decade. But not without cause. But in terms of new car buying, experience matters.

About 18 months or so I bought new washer/dryer. I looked up the specs online. Looks up the options and what they did. I made sure the dimensions fit and read the online reviews. Does this sound familiar? I can see the house from the blueprint. My wife needs to see the house. If it were me alone, I would have just ordered online and had them deliver it. But we went to the store. The employees were useless. I knew more than they did, particularly about the problems people had found. There is nothing worse for salesmen than a knowledgeable customer.

If you don't know what Carmax is, its a big car seller, new and used. The price is the price. No haggling. I once did the same thing as the washer/dryer. Did the homework, picked the options I wanted. And just like the washer/dryer, knew the price beforehand. I didn't need to drive the car, it was a washer/dryer, just another major appliance. But my wife went for the test drive. The deal was done in minutes. Just sign the paperwork. Thats how appliances work. They are all the same. Some people can see the blueprint, know the end result, two clicks and bought. Others, want to touch and feel. Then buy. But in the end, they are all washers/dryers.

When I was young, I viewed the salesmen dance as an annoyance, hated it like you said. I'd know the true price, know exactly what I wanted, and one of the first cars I bought told the salesmen to get the manager because I wasn't going to play the game. "Oh no" can't do that. So I told him the price I would pay. It was a washing machine. There were many like it. They all looked the same, did the same thing, the only thing different was the color. He said he couldn't do that price after doing the salesmen/manager dance. So I walked. Salesmen was in shock. Its only a couple of hundred!!! (Cars were cheap back then). I didn't care. I was young and annoyed, playing stupid games. There are many dealerships. There are many different washing machines to choose from. Basically, they are all alike. CYA. A few days later the salesmen called (this was back when people actually used telephones as telephones.). We had a deal. One of the last cars I bought, much older now, I did the same thing. This time the manager looked at me, knew I wouldn't play the dance/game, and dealt directly with me. The salesmen just did the "delivery". The moral of that story is that I have no time for playing games when buying washing machines.

This article is from 2014 but as valid today as five years ago There's simply no app for emotions, says Porsche marketing boss
A marketing article about how Porsche sells in the UK. You can read it but the main point is what gcurnew is saying. By now we all know the Porsche designated psychographics profiles. They admit the Proud Patrons want to go to the shop, talk about their cars. There is nothing like looking at them, sitting in them, thinking about what your next purchase will be. More marketing material about Porsche
How customer journey mapping is driving Porsche's success

(BTW, how do we control these fonts, font sizes, and color? This is messed up taking features away.)

“The key for us at Porsche is to build personal lifetime relationships, and the key to successful relationships is to get to know people and treat everyone as an individual,” ... head of customer experience and customer strategy at Porsche, ...“A one-off transaction is easy. But a lifetime relationship requires effort.”

Or translated. Buying appliances is simple. Some people flit from dealer to dealer, just worried about the lowest price. But for some, its a lifetime relationship and the brand wants to keep that relationship.

Like gcurnew, when I go to the Porsche dealer, they know exactly who I am. They know what I've bought since my first Porsche many years ago even though I bought it elsewhere, how much I spent, etc. They know me by name, and my wife, on sight (which might be a good or bad thing). I always chit chat with the manager and service personnel. They always ask about her if I am alone. Always. I BS with the salesmen. Some are racing fans. We talk the same language. They have few seats, a handful for waiting. I'm always handed another Porsche to drive no questions asked.

Prior to the Macan, they would always just take me for a problem, no appointment. I think the Macan has caused service backlogs so I now have to make an appointment but am treated the same. With the Cayman, $4K problem came up way out of warranty. They quickly offered to pay 50% on goodwill. They know what they are doing and know exactly the potential for future profits because they know I will be back. I always get a PCA discount too and that was substantial getting PSE installed. That discount mattered.

But, when I go to a washing machine service, the place is huge. Forget about a free loaner. There are 50 - 70 sitting and waiting, watching that inane HGTV watching paint dry. There never give you an update on how the service is going. If you don't get there at 7 AM, all the "free" breakfast is gone. You get what you pay for.

Upselling is a non-issue. I understand the business. They are not going to upsell me on the vehicle or options. I probably know more about what is going on than they do. I think they hate the Internet rumor mill. For upsell of dealer sold packages after the sale, they are just doing their job. Let them do their job. Be nice, and just say no thank you but I appreciate your time. That's not condescending but being polite and letting them work. They know they have to work the script. If you're not naive, you know the game. They have a job to do. We want these people employed. The more people working, the better it is for everyone.

When I go to the Porsche dealer, there is alway something interesting on the floor. Some are run of the mill 911 Turbo S, GT2, GT3, but some a customer cars, on display, unique cars you rarely see outside of a PCA event. When I had the Xpel put on my 911, it was done on the showroom floor.

I too do not begrudge the dealership making a living. They are people just like us. I know the costs. I understand their overhead. They treat me well so I treat them well. That's how personal relationships work. Washing machines have no personal relationship. The personnel change all the time. You don't know who is there from year to year. Meanwhile, at Porsche dealer they seem to stay forever and just move up the food chain. Or, they move between dealerships, back and forth, a small community. Granted, I have a half dozen dealerships in easy driving distance.

Parts are different. I refuse to pay the outrageous prices for Porsche branded anything when I know full well they are just rebranding other companies products and upping the price. The same is true of OEM parts. If I want something, I just order it online. There are many Porsche dealers now selling the exact same part online. They all compete with each other and you can find a variance in prices. Competition is good. Does Tesla dealers do that? Oh wait, there are no Tesla dealerships. Which brings us to this.



Yes, its true that all the same dealerships for the same brand might have the same wholesale cost, but each department is different. I can say with 100% certainty, you can buy the same part from different dealers at different prices. Worse, the internet price can be cheaper than the OTC sale. Some charge for shipping. Others do not. I've had parts shipped free.

Do you really need many dealerships? Yes, you do. The more dealerships the better it is for all America. While the CARMAX model is "the price is the price" and I gather so is Tesla, I can see that attraction. Its buying a washing machine, just more expensive. But the price does vary greatly. Some dealerships do have sales. Some dealerships have LARGE lot inventories. Others have little. Many car sales are spur of the moment. Your car dies, you buy a lot car. I have dozens upon dozens of Ford/Chevy dealers around. Admittedly, I haven't bought an American car for 40 years? Can't remember. But when I was looking at SUVs, I did look at US SUVs. The inventory was massive. One dealer didn't have the color my wife wanted, I just went to the one in the next town.

Variety is good. Choice is better. The franchise model is broken? I have to disagree. Sorry K-Man but while I do understand the appeal of two clicks and buy something, much better for the economy is the large number of personnel supported by the business. The land alone is worth $$$. The Auto parks are huge. Cars constantly flow in and out. Surrounding the auto parks are businesses that work off the auto parks: the fast food chains, the gas stations, the places people go during lunch time to run errands, the car wash next door. The more people employed, the better it is for the USA. Unemployment today is at all time low for everyone, all kinds of people, and part of those jobs are employed by auto dealerships from mechanics to sales personnel, to the business types. All of them are people too. And they are working, making a living, and all on a system where you can walk into a car store, sit and talk, create a relationship if you choose too. All the people working, directly for the dealerships or in support of the dealerships.

Sure there are many Ford Dealerships. So what? They are good for the economy. Good for the IRS to take in money. Good for the GDP. Good for America. While true, lobbing for the franchise model probably did exist and continue to exist. So what? Both models can co-exist. This is not a zero sum game. Its not either/or. Want to click and buy, then do so. Want to go to a dealership? Do so. In the end, the more business that exist, the more people employed, the more people doing business in the indirect way because of the dealership, the more competition, the better it is for all Americans.

Trying to reduce the number of business is bad for the US economy. I have no problem with the Carmax model or the Tesla model or the franchise model. Let the free market decide for itself what it wants. Let the consumer decide what it wants. We want more people working, more people spending money, more choices, more car dealerships, more mechanics, etc. All these people feeding the economy.
Awesome points and well written, certain things we buy can be sight unseen, online delivered to your door, but for me a major purchase like a car needs the infrastructure like a dealership behind it for me to feel comfortable, that relationship I have built with my local Porsche team has been very important to me and in fact is why I am buying yet another Porsche, they are like my friends in the industry, of course they have a keen interest in me as a customer, but then again that relationship goes both ways, I know that when I have a problem I can count on them to help me out. Also as you say, local people employed at a local dealership, spending money and paying taxes in the same community that I live in, very important! (y)
 

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Source video. Logging problem with flash. I'm telling you, a smart phone on wheels is going to be a massive problem and its going to get worse. That's not doom and gloom. That's experience.

OMG, this was good, I suspected as much from rumours that I have heard, but to see it first hand in this video, absolutely amazing, I thought there was some type of federal law that prohibits a manufacturer from withholding information needed for repairs and making parts available?
 
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