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Chows, I appreciate your response, but I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. The context of my comment was gas taxes, and what I was trying to say was that the money a government would NOT collect due to no gas sales would be more than offset by the money they would save by not having ICE on the roads.

In Canada we tax the hell out of gasoline, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. Because we have to pay for people’s health care costs.

EVs may cause job losses and WW3 ( I’m not smart enough to figure that out), but I think the argument about the “subsidization” of EVs is overblown for the reasons I’ve mentioned. We lose a lot more money than that with people just switching to vaping. Or making their own wine.

Okay, let’s run the numbers, I’m awake anyway.

Over the life of the Cayman (averages):

Km/y : 8708
Cost: $893.75
Liters: 821

Taxes on gasoline where I live:

Provincial motor fuel tax (everywhere else in B.C.) — 7.75 cents.
B.C.'s carbon tax — 8.89 cents.
The B.C. Transportation Finance Authority tax — 6.75 cents.
Transit tax (If you live in Victoria) — 5.5 cents.
Federal excise tax — 10 cents.
Finally, pay the five per cent Goods and Services Tax on top of the total price.

So I pay $0.3889 + 5% of the retail price.

= (821 x 0.3889) + (893 x 0.05)
= 319 + 45
= $364

So if I dumped my Cayman and drove the Tesla this is the gas tax the government would be out.

My electricity is 100% renewable. But I pay taxes for the electricity I use. I think the Tesla gets about 300Wh/km.

8708 x 300 = 2612 kWh x 0.12 (ave) = $313

My government charges me a climate tax on electricity of about $13 / 2 months so $78.

=78 + (313 x 0.05)
= 94

So my government is out $270/year in direct taxes if I switch.

Now my point is, my EV is only tires on road. When I take my used motor oil to the local landfill for recycling, how much does that cost? What is the wear and tear on my roads from tanker trucks hauling gasoline? My government just spent $4.5 billion buying an oil pipeline. That’s $150 for every man woman and child in the country!

Is that $270/year I’m not “paying” really that unfair? I just don’t see it.
 

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Chows, I appreciate your response, but I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. The context of my comment was gas taxes, and what I was trying to say was that the money a government would NOT collect due to no gas sales would be more than offset by the money they would save by not having ICE on the roads.

Over the life of the Cayman (averages):

Km/y : 8708
Cost: $893.75
Liters: 821

Taxes on gasoline where I live:

Provincial motor fuel tax (everywhere else in B.C.) — 7.75 cents.
B.C.'s carbon tax — 8.89 cents.
The B.C. Transportation Finance Authority tax — 6.75 cents.
Transit tax (If you live in Victoria) — 5.5 cents.
Federal excise tax — 10 cents.
Finally, pay the five per cent Goods and Services Tax on top of the total price.

So I pay $0.3889 + 5% of the retail price.

= (821 x 0.3889) + (893 x 0.05)
= 319 + 45
= $364
OK Sorry. I tend to look at the overall picture, everything, not the specifics of the individual because everyone is different. I see your point and I said "CA is different than the US because of your socialized medicine". I try not to worry about subsidization of fuel industries because I believe there should be none, for any fuel, oil/lithium tech or otherwise.

OK, lets run the numbers. I guess your talking CA dollars not USD. I got to convert KM to M, 8708 = 5262M/year.

I know my Porsche MPG is about 16.5 (not so good) =5262/16.5 = 319 gallons

Taxes US Avg 21.5/ Fed fed 18.4 = 39.9 cents. If you live in PA or CA, too bad :( If you lives in AK :)

We don't have any of the other taxes you mention. Kinda of feel bad for you all, so 39.9 x 319 = ~$128 USD

So no Porsche under your same circumstances mean the Fed and State are out a total of $128.

Thats for the year. $364? Canadian dollar vs $128 USD.

My electricity is 100% renewable. But I pay taxes for the electricity I use. I think the Tesla gets about 300Wh/km.

8708 x 300 = 2612 kWh x 0.12 (ave) = $313

My government charges me a climate tax on electricity of about $13 / 2 months so $78.

=78 + (313 x 0.05)
= 94
I see what you did. Taxes on elect. We have no equivalent.

So my government is out $270/year in direct taxes if I switch.
Mine would be out $128.

Now my point is, my EV is only tires on road. When I take my used motor oil to the local landfill for recycling, how much does that cost?
I don't know the profit/loss statements of oil recycling companies but they don't exist to lose money. Just do a search and you'll find lots of companies that pay for oil. Since plastic is made from oil, it looks like there is a oil selling point where its cheaper to use new oil than recycling oil (somewhere around $50/barrel?). Anyway, the companies don't go broke so someone is making money. Its cost $0.00

What is the wear and tear on my roads from tanker trucks hauling gasoline? My government just spent $4.5 billion buying an oil pipeline. That’s $150 for every man woman and child in the country!
A good question and a reason why big trucks should pay more, and they do. Its not like they get 16 MPG. US tax on diesel is 24.4 cents/gallon. 18 wheeler gets maybe 6 MPG? State diesel tax is higher too.

Bottom line. They DO pay more to compensate from damage. I don't know what Canadian taxes are on diesel but I can bet they do the same thing, that is, the big trucks pay more in taxes. But we know that those companies don't really pay more. We, the consumer pays more. The taxes can be easily passed on to the consumers as the price of transportation is just the cost of doing business.

Is that $270/year I’m not “paying” really that unfair? I just don’t see it.
Now multiple that by how many cars in Canada? Maybe 34,000,000? So thats $9,180,000,000 Canadian. You think $9B is nothing? I'll take it. Holiday spending time is coming :)

270M cars in the US at $128 = $34.5B A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon its real money.

---

I happened to binge watch Jack Ryan on Amazon this weekend. I don't know if you can stream Amazon or care about it but somebody might like the action entertainment. Its very contemporary, very current, and not overdone with PC. I won't say anything else about it so not to spoil it other than its worth watching.

 

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So my government is out $270/year in direct taxes if I switch.
Externality, n. = price of something that humans, because of faulty hard-wired programming, are calling "free lunch".

What I meant to say, canux, is that you rightfully see externalities in the formed price of the fossil fuel which is devoid of them/does not consider them, but do not stop even for a second to consider externalities of the "renewable energy". What are they? How should I know? I am human, too, and suffer from horrible programming.

But read the top sentence enough times, until it becomes clear that you will pay the piper, no matter what. At least in THIS Universe.
 

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I'd like to see those numbers, hard data. When oil is discussed, its ability to create energy is measured in Calorific content. That value for Li-on is up to 100 times less than gasoline. Some of that is made up by the efficiency of an electric motor but doubtful it will ever compete. All the energy in gasoline is self contained in the liquid. Meanwhile batteries are just a storage container. The energy is produced at some other power station. Kinetic energy is energy in relation to motion. You can calculate how much kinetic energy is released if a 3100 lb Cayman hits an immovable object at 117 MPH. :) (1,923,370 Joules)

As to costs, replacing all 270,000,000 registered vehicles in the US mean, please include everything, the entire holistic calculation in each sector. These are real people, real lives, and not some fantasy predictions based upon computer simulations.

167,000 employees work in gas stations. The number of employees the last 5 years is increasing. Where do they go?
10,300,000 employees work in the US oil industry in some capacity.
Worldwide, 15,000,000 employees service cars. Where do they go since electric cars have no ICE engines?

Now to the Oil spills, coolant spills, gasoline spills, air pollution and associated health care costs, pipelines, tanker ships,

Each of those industries (e.g. health) employ people. Now CA is different than the US because of your socialized medicine and I assume pipelines and tankers fall under the general Oil Industry, but whoever is left is employed indirectly because of the Oil Industry. Calculate those lost jobs.

Now move on to international economic damage. How many jobs and lives would be disrupted if the US (and CA) was no longer involved in the Oil Industry? How much damage would that to global GDP? What kind of depression would that cost?

The final calculations is how much damage would this do to the GDP? All those jobs lost? All those people? Will they be living on the dole? On the taxes of others to support them? This isn't a simple calculation. And sure, you need to calculate the costs you might save from less pollution.


I have no doubt that air pollution is a health problem, but its nowhere near what it used to be in 1970 LA. Since the academics are arguing among themselves, there is no "scientific consensus", just mad academics no one believes them with blind faith.

You want to get low hanging fruit, go to the SOURCE: China. The US and CA, in comparison, is a joke. Just look at the map.


global conflict (military costs),

I left this to last. Since the USA has none of the natural resources for electrons for fuel, and some people do study history, whats going to happen in this fantasy world of electrons for fuel based on lithium technology when the world goes to war for some reason (e.g., India/Pakistan, Israel/Arab) pick a conflict. You all think the Congo isn't going to get invaded for its Cobalt? You don't think the Rare Earths will get cut off by China? How about the Graphite?

You will see massive military conflict like never before. Lithium base tech versus oil is a MASSIVE, huge, disruption of everything from the mining, to the supply chain, to the logistics, to the front end serving of the transportation sector and everything in-between.

No sovereign nation will ever allow itself to be dependent upon another nation when it already has the resources it needs. It was a primary reason for Japan bombing Pearl Harbor, for Germany taking Romania and a reason for invading part of Russia. This has become so ludicrous. Have you noticed that when Iran seized a couple of tankers the US didn't blink an eye? What would have happened if that was 1973 or 1979. WWIII? Why did the US not blink an eye. Energy independence.

Lets see the simulated costs for WWIII based on lithium tech batteries. What will be the costs for taking the Cobalt mines, taking the lithium fields, the graphite mines, and securing the rare earth mines. How many tanks, how many planes, how many human deaths. What will the death toll be? How many US or Canadian young lives will be lost to secure the natural resources when the next war comes when the country has none of the resource to transport goods and people. These deaths won't be "predictions" that somebody took 6 months of their life because of pollution. No, they will body bags coming into Dover. Who is going to explain that to the parents of their loved ones lost because someone threw away the natural resources?

Yeah. I'd like to see the total calculation, particurlary about the things the electric vehicle blogs never discuss.

:) Holistic costs, all things, health, GDP, war, lost jobs, personal costs to human being losing their jobs, etc.

Sorry, if this sounds :mad: Its more like:unsure: This is very complicated. International ramifications. Human ramifications. Economic ramifications. Its all part of this.
Chows surely you don't mean to justify the Oil and Gas industry just because people work in that industry? I'm sure lots of people worked in the Asbestos industry at some point from manufacturing it to installing it, doesn't mean we should support that industry. People can and do find other jobs when industries go away, like those people who made riding crops or horseshoes in the 1800's, or horse drawn carriages. I would rather see those people lose their jobs and have to find different jobs than have my children or grand children not be able to get any jobs because the planet is unlivable... :) :) :)
 

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Chows, check the proposed EV tax in Missouri, hasn't passed the legislature yet but there is a could chance it will.
Interesting


Sounds like the population pushed back on increased gas tax so they target EVs. What did I say about that? Is not MO red? Yup, deep red https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_General_Assembly and the Governor.

Look at the Map. Hmm. I wonder which states appear to be punishing EVs. Could it be political? Want to blame someone for the disparate taxes? Blame the people who politicized the scientific subject putting it in party platforms. They immediately lost half the country.
Big mistake to have politicized global warming. That is my guess as to why MO is doing this. Its the Anti-CA ;)
 

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Interesting article for Der Spiegel on Tesla and German cars. The same magazine seemed to be criticizing VW, Audi, and Porsche for being out of touch a few years ago with the Veyron and GT4.


"Mathias Müller of Porsche arrived in a Cayman Gt4, which has 385 horsepower and can accelerate to a speed of 100 kilometers per hour (62 miles per hour) in four seconds; ... It was a classic example of boys with their toys -- who had the biggest, longest and strongest? "The car [Veyron] has 1,200 horsepower can reach speeds of over 400 kilometers (almost 250 miles) per hour. Does the insanity never stop? ..."

Now this


"Companies like VW got a hold of Tesla's new mid-range Model 3 before it reached the market and dismantled it into its individual parts. Their findings were shocking: They discovered their small American rival was years ahead of them in important areas."

Part II


Talks about BMW and MB struggling. Take of lost jobs, supply chain, all the economic stuff.
 

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Chows surely you don't mean to justify the Oil and Gas industry just because people work in that industry? I'm sure lots of people worked in the Asbestos industry at some point from manufacturing it to installing it, doesn't mean we should support that industry. People can and do find other jobs when industries go away, like those people who made riding crops or horseshoes in the 1800's, or horse drawn carriages.
Read part II of Der Spiegel above. They are talking about the dismantling of the German auto industry. These are vast numbers in the USA, probably millions of jobs, everthing from gas station attendants to the supply chain, truck drivers, logistics. These are people, people with families, kids to feed, etc.

The concept of comparing animal locomotion to machine locomotion is a false equivalence. In 1900, people WANTED to change. They hated the crap, literal crap :poop: piling up in the streets, the dead horses, the stench, the predictions of crap reaching the top of buildings. They RAN to cars. This is not the same as changing an international industry involving millions of people, trillions of dollars, an untold amount of investments, R&D, etc. for on tech to another tech. Not even close. No one is running to electrons as fuel.

The horse industry to car industry rush was for "convenience". Who wants to take care of horses? Maintain them, groom them, feed them, pick up their crap? It was convenient to change locomotion methods. Not true for lithium. Its inconvenient. Its inconvenient to be forced to have a charger, find a charging place, etc. Its a pain (yes, I've seen the apps - pain to be dependent on a computer).

Its a massive mistake that will end up in massive class action lawsuits. IMO for two reasons

1. Someone WILL hack these computers when its becomes profitable to do so. Just like the hackers never touched Apples, there weren't enough around. There aren't enough Teslas around to be bothered. Now look today, hundreds of cities are being held for ransomware. Example:



You can take this to the bank. When it becomes profitable to hack these cars, someone will do it.

2. As more lithium spreads, the fires will become common, everyday. Watch for the lawsuits to build.

The natural resource argument means its a non player anyway. No country will allow itself to become dependent upon another country when it has its own resources. Too much blood has been spilled already. And today is Veterans Day. ??


I would rather see those people lose their jobs and have to find different jobs than have my children or grand children not be able to get any jobs because the planet is unlivable...
In the global warming thread I stopped discussing the "end of the world". My position is clear. Of course human beings do something to the environment. Its a closed system. Its impossible not to. Why anyone would think its not dynamic but would stay static is beyond me.

Whether or not it matters, I question. Follow the money. Regardless of the political system from a complete dictatorship to the perfect utopia, someone always ends up with more money than someone else. When you see the billionaires investing in arctic Tundra, Siberia, and Antarctica, then worry. Any of that happen yet? When you see land speculators buying up prime frozen ground, then worry. Or new companies figuring out how to set up tours across the new Arctic ocean lanes across the NP.

Instead, people rebuild their houses on the beach, decade after decade, and do so today. And on yeah, VP Biden just bought a house on Rehoboth Beach. Sure, I'm going to worry about "climate change".


Another Candidate owns one on the beach


and rumor is Pres Obama wants to buy the house he rents on the beach


Why should I care one bit if they don't worry about "sea rise"?

I've said here many times, the global warming crowd got the worst sales personnel ever, now using a child as a poster child and "Hanoi Jane", not exactly enamored by a generation who fought and died while she sat on a N. Vietnamese AA gun, "protesting". Great sales personnel. No, sorry. I don't drink that koolaid in the sense I have no doubt humans effect the environment we live in but have doubts about whether it matters. We humans can be pretty arrogant about how important we are.

This is the "study" that really irritated me


TL;DR Cats and Dogs have to go, especially American. They are carnivores and cows fart.

No. CYA. Wake me up when someone buys huge tracts of land in the Alaskan and Canadian Tundra speculating on the new housing boom.

?
 

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The answer to the original question is a qualified yes. Let's move on...electric cars are but one tiny piece of the equation. https://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank
Agreed!

The EV vs ICE debate has been thoroughly thrashed, and if the linked information is even remotely correct, and we also accept the science behind CO2 and climate change, cars are only a very small part of the problem...
 
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Agreed!

The EV vs ICE debate has been thoroughly thrashed, and if the linked information is even remotely correct, and we also accept the science behind CO2 and climate change, cars are only a very small part of the problem...
Actually, the link doesn't say that. It says that realistically, EVs are fairly low on the list of likely solutions due to costs, technical limitations, and other factors. But ICE vehicles remain a very large part of the problem. Like nearly one-fifth of all US emissions.

I like stopping by this thread every couple months to see how it has evolved, and every time I'm amused to see that it hasn't. I'm reminded of the saying that science advances one funeral at a time. The point being that new ideas often aren't accepted until the old idea holders leave. Or stated differently, it's easier to change people than ideas.

Hopefully it won't take that long to address climate change, but I gotta say it's not looking good.

But what is looking good is that Taycan! Boy howdy, sure wouldn't mind having one of those.







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With respect to the Taycan did you see those Twitter messages over the weekend from the guy testing one out and charging at an Electrify America charging station? If his photos are to be believed, and I assume they are because he was at an Electrify America (owned by VW) station the amount shown in his photo was $38.62 for 25.6 kWh = $1.51 per kWh, or about $130 to "fill up" the Taycan!

Compare that to the high rate of .26 per kWh that Tesla charges in California for those for whom Supercharging isn't already free. I think some Taycan owners are in for a rude awakening when it comes time to charge when out on the road, or maybe if you just paid $200K for your Taycan you won't care that it costs $130 to fill it up.

Let's compare that to a Panamera Turbo which is rated at 18mpg City and 25mpg Highway. For arguments sake let's say it gets 20 miles to the gallon. The Taycan goes at best 240 miles on a full charge so that would be equivalent to a Panamera Turbo burning 12 gallons of fuel at 20mpg to go the same distance. 12 gallons of gas at $5/gallon is only $60.

Why is the cost for the Taycan to cover the same distance more than double that of the Panamera? What was that about electric cars saving money in operating costs??
 

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Actually, the link doesn't say that. It says that realistically, EVs are fairly low on the list of likely solutions due to costs, technical limitations, and other factors. But ICE vehicles remain a very large part of the problem. Like nearly one-fifth of all US emissions.

I like stopping by this thread every couple months to see how it has evolved, and every time I'm amused to see that it hasn't. I'm reminded of the saying that science advances one funeral at a time. The point being that new ideas often aren't accepted until the old idea holders leave. Or stated differently, it's easier to change people than ideas.

Hopefully it won't take that long to address climate change, but I gotta say it's not looking good.

But what is looking good is that Taycan! Boy howdy, sure wouldn't mind having one of those.


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I don't have to die to change my mind ;), but your statement like many are made without much in the way of support. Cars are the low hanging fruit, there are many larger issues at hand, and you can't eliminate the pollution in one geographical area and claim victory of any great degree, so claiming something about emissions in the US doesn't really help.

As for cars being a small part of the problem (according to that article), it does say that, their CO2 contribution is much lower than those above, technical costs aside, those higher on the list if attended to will have a greater overall effect. BTW this list was in order of magnitude of Total Atmospheric CO2-EQ Reduction, costs were listed in the adjacent column, cars are 49 out of 80... Don't get me wrong, everything needs to improve but focusing on ICE cars is not the solution!

As for climate change the solution is easy, but likely less palatable for most, simply eliminate humans and all of their trivial wants and needs, problem solved! No more ships transporting trinkets that nobody really needs, no planes flying tourists about, mega homes and cities for the exploding population of people, each of them chasing the dream of acquiring yet more stuff! :cool:
 

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With respect to the Taycan did you see those Twitter messages over the weekend from the guy testing one out and charging at an Electrify America charging station? If his photos are to be believed, and I assume they are because he was at an Electrify America (owned by VW) station the amount shown in his photo was $38.62 for 25.6 kWh = $1.51 per kWh, or about $130 to "fill up" the Taycan!

Compare that to the high rate of .26 per kWh that Tesla charges in California for those for whom Supercharging isn't already free. I think some Taycan owners are in for a rude awakening when it comes time to charge when out on the road, or maybe if you just paid $200K for your Taycan you won't care that it costs $130 to fill it up.

Let's compare that to a Panamera Turbo which is rated at 18mpg City and 25mpg Highway. For arguments sake let's say it gets 20 miles to the gallon. The Taycan goes at best 240 miles on a full charge so that would be equivalent to a Panamera Turbo burning 12 gallons of fuel at 20mpg to go the same distance. 12 gallons of gas at $5/gallon is only $60.

Why is the cost for the Taycan to cover the same distance more than double that of the Panamera? What was that about electric cars saving money in operating costs??
Interesting, so I assume that as you have a Tesla you are confirming this price Tesla charges? If so unless Electrify America is over priced, is Tesla subsidizing their Superchargers?
 

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Actually, the link doesn't say that. It says that realistically, EVs are fairly low on the list of likely solutions due to costs, technical limitations, and other factors. But ICE vehicles remain a very large part of the problem. Like nearly one-fifth of all US emissions.
The USA provides for 16% of the world CO2, as of October 2019


From the EPA,

transportation sector is 29%.
Cars are 59% of 29%

Thats 17% of the USA or 2.7% of the world CO2. Convert every car on the road today to non-ICE means NOTHING in the big picture, a Total waste of time and money. 2.7% is a joke.

Hopefully it won't take that long to address climate change, but I gotta say it's not looking good.
Nothing will change, at least for the USA, in our lifetimes. Don't depend upon the swings of political fortune. That pendulum always swings back and forth. The only way the world will change is for world, socialist gov, something the UN is pushing. Won't happen. People are people. Too many people have died to ensure that doesn't happen.

Outside of the MSM curating the news, no one really cares. I hate polls but read them. "climate change" is always at the bottom of concerns. Add in $$$, how much are YOU willing to pay and it becomes a joke. Thats real life.
 

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OMG, this was good, I suspected as much from rumours that I have heard, but to see it first hand in this video, absolutely amazing, I thought there was some type of federal law that prohibits a manufacturer from withholding information needed for repairs and making parts available?
You mean MM law in USA? The Magnusen Morris Act is a consumer protection act. Its meant so any producer of widgets can't force you to go to the authorized dealer to have something fixed. IOW, you can use Fram filters instead of Ford filters or whatever. For cars, if you modify the car, its your dime to fix it. If they can show your modifications caused something to fail, they don't have to fix according to the warranty. Trying to fight that is trying to fight city hall. They are big, many lawyers, we are puny. Some do fight it but its a hard thing to fight and prove, and over what? At how much cost.

There is also the ruling on the DMCA act. That's the copyright. Its a 3 year ruling that they can't keep owners from fixing the code in the cars. They relook it again maybe in 2020? Not sure when. The big auto companies didn't want anyone touching their code, you know "tuning". But they lost the ruling. You can tune your car, for now and I think you can jailbreak your phone too. But I don't think this is a permanent ruling.
 

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I don't have to die to change my mind ;), but your statement like many are made without much in the way of support. Cars are the low hanging fruit, there are many larger issues at hand, and you can't eliminate the pollution in one geographical area and claim victory of any great degree, so claiming something about emissions in the US doesn't really help.
If all 270,000,000 cars in the USA turned electric today, in the big scheme of things it means nothing. China is the problem, yet they get a pass. Nothing is going to be solved here, there, or anywhere. Its not in the best interest of those with the money.

As long as the rich keep buying beach front property, its all a joke. I see sales personnel for all of this who do not walk the walk. Do as I say, not as I do. You can bookmark this.

The USA will never spend the money necessary to make any kind of dent in this problem (if you really believe there is a problem). If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but whatever is passed today, can be reversed tomorrow. People need to see actual damage, actual tangible things that effect their daily lives, and not nonsense hysterical articles about hurricanes that have happened since forever. And not alarmist "OMG the ice is melting". So what its melting? Does that mean I get to own beachfront property and I'm way inland.

Its always comes down to money. When you see the land speculators, speculating up in the arctic circle, then worry.
 

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Hopefully it won't take that long to address climate change, but I gotta say it's not looking good.
No, it is not looking good.

In my opinion, it will never look good because of the very simple problem. Humans show no will whatsoever to cut their numbers and, if anything, keep multiplying like vermin because they have no natural predator to keep numbers in check. Which, in a closed system, leads to certain disaster. Until we open a trade with Mars or Moon, we live in a closed system, like it or not.

In addition to the above, we seem to believe that we have a Natural, God-given right to consume almost unlimited resources per capita. Which, closed system and all, spells certain mega-disaster.

However, it is our INSANE belief that, if we could only convince people to use "GOOD" resources, then we can happily continue to procreate and consume like it is 1985. THAT, my dear friends, in a closed system, means certain death.

Now you figure out the priority of the problems. May I suggest that ICE burning gasoline is about at the end of the block-long line?

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