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Which, in a closed system, leads to certain disaster. Until we open a trade with Mars or Moon, we live in a closed system, like it or not.
It gets worse. Within a closed system, its impossible for the inhabitants not to create waves or ripples. Why anyone would think the status quo would remain the status quo is beyond me. Those that think the temperature would remain the same and the coast lines would always be the same seem ridiculous.

Now this, Sept, 2019 from The Conversations - academics.


"Our present moment is characterized by a growing obsession with the long term. The study of climate change, for example, relies on increasingly long-range simulations. Science's predictions are no longer merely hypotheses for validation or invalidation but are often grave threats—of growing scope and severity—that must be prevented."

No longer the scientific method. No, we have to change that closed system because of "my code". Sure.

"Predicting oncoming peril demands a proactive response."

OMG, we all going to die. Gimme $80,000,000,000,000 today. All you modern nations have to pay for the damage you did because you invented cool stuff like machines.

"... one thing this has spawned is the proposal of "geoengineering"—the large-scale harnessing of Earth's natural systems in order to counteract climate change's deleterious consequences. ... our pursuit of anticipating and preventing disaster itself generates its own perils. ... Our efforts to predict the world tend to change the world in unpredictable ways."

We humans, how arrogate, think we are so smart, yet have no idea how the universe really works and in day to day life can't tell me if its going to rain tomorrow.
 

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I don't have to die to change my mind ;), but your statement like many are made without much in the way of support. Cars are the low hanging fruit, there are many larger issues at hand, and you can't eliminate the pollution in one geographical area and claim victory of any great degree, so claiming something about emissions in the US doesn't really help.

As for cars being a small part of the problem (according to that article), it does say that, their CO2 contribution is much lower than those above, technical costs aside, those higher on the list if attended to will have a greater overall effect. BTW this list was in order of magnitude of Total Atmospheric CO2-EQ Reduction, costs were listed in the adjacent column, cars are 49 out of 80... Don't get me wrong, everything needs to improve but focusing on ICE cars is not the solution!
Sigh. You're talking about the drawdown link, right? Because it clearly is ranking solutions, not problems, which is why they're ordered by "magnitude of Total Atmospheric CO2-EQ Reduction" (emphasis mine). The Reduction listed is the predicted impact given various assumptions. As to whether or not they're low-hanging fruit, the list suggests they're the 49th lowest hanging fruit from a list of 80.

Cars can be a big part of the problem, but also not be the most cost-effective way to address the problem. It's like when you take a test; it's often a better strategy to quickly answer the easy questions than to spend all your time on the hardest big-point problem.
 

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I would rather see those people lose their jobs and have to find different jobs than have my children or grand children not be able to get any jobs because the planet is unlivable...
Hopefully it won't take that long to address climate change, but I gotta say it's not looking good.
If you feel frustrated that nothing is being done, that no one in the US is seriously looking at this, that the trillions of dollars necessary to fight this will never be spent, look at the frustration in the scientists. Their life work and the public doesn't really care. Don't believe it? Try Pew.


The public ranks it 17th in importance.

The only people to blame for not caring is, IMO, whoever came up with the strategic plan to sell this. It about the most botched selling imaginable. Just imagine.
  • Push the concept with a failed presidential candidate, which means half the nation immediately rejects whatever he says.
  • Have celebrity endorsements who talk the talk but then fly in private jets, yachts, etc.
  • Politicians who buy beachfront property yet think the world is going to end?
  • Failed predictions. Oops. Read about Kilimanjaro.
  • Blame all weather on global warming.
  • Tell the public they can't cook up some steaks. That's a sure winner
  • Tell them to dump their carnivore pet cats and dogs
  • Sit in traffic, disrupt the public and private transportation for people trying to get to actual "work"
  • Threaten companies with RICO
  • Use children as props or "celebrity" protesters that many in a generation seem to revile as a traitor.
These are all ways to wins the heart and minds of those you want money from. :rolleyes: And my favorite (well besides get rid of all the cats and dogs :mad:): Make it a platform for one of the two major political parties. It wasn't bad enough that the first "salesman" was a previous politician. No, they had to make it part of the platform, which effectively guarantees, on principle, they lost half the nation.

Sure sound like a winning plan. Of course, its too late now. What's done is done. But when the next end of the world crisis comes up, maybe some better PR would help? Worse thing ever was politicizing a "science thing". It couldn't just be left alone as something that needs to be looked at, maybe inventors could look at CO2 scrubbers, maybe Johnny Appleseed could go plant some trees. No, they just had to make an issue out of it for political gain. Those who truly believe the world will come to an end will never recover from that as society becomes more and more split, at least in the virtual world. Some will "resist" it all just to spite the other side.

When the space aliens invade and there is a tangible, visible threat, please do not politicize it. If there is an extinction level event, maybe a big old asteroid, don't take sides and let science and the commercial inventors do its thing.
 

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If you feel frustrated that nothing is being done, that no one in the US is seriously looking at this, that the trillions of dollars necessary to fight this will never be spent, look at the frustration in the scientists. Their life work and the public doesn't really care. Don't believe it? Try Pew.


The public ranks it 17th in importance.

The only people to blame for not caring is, IMO, whoever came up with the strategic plan to sell this. It about the most botched selling imaginable. Just imagine.
  • Push the concept with a failed presidential candidate, which means half the nation immediately rejects whatever he says.
  • Have celebrity endorsements who talk the talk but then fly in private jets, yachts, etc.
  • Politicians who buy beachfront property yet think the world is going to end?
  • Failed predictions. Oops. Read about Kilimanjaro.
  • Blame all weather on global warming.
  • Tell the public they can't cook up some steaks. That's a sure winner
  • Tell them to dump their carnivore pet cats and dogs
  • Sit in traffic, disrupt the public and private transportation for people trying to get to actual "work"
  • Threaten companies with RICO
  • Use children as props or "celebrity" protesters that many in a generation seem to revile as a traitor.
These are all ways to wins the heart and minds of those you want money from. :rolleyes: And my favorite (well besides get rid of all the cats and dogs :mad:): Make it a platform for one of the two major political parties. It wasn't bad enough that the first "salesman" was a previous politician. No, they had to make it part of the platform, which effectively guarantees, on principle, they lost half the nation.

Sure sound like a winning plan. Of course, its too late now. What's done is done. But when the next end of the world crisis comes up, maybe some better PR would help? Worse thing ever was politicizing a "science thing". It couldn't just be left alone as something that needs to be looked at, maybe inventors could look at CO2 scrubbers, maybe Johnny Appleseed could go plant some trees. No, they just had to make an issue out of it for political gain. Those who truly believe the world will come to an end will never recover from that as society becomes more and more split, at least in the virtual world. Some will "resist" it all just to spite the other side.

When the space aliens invade and there is a tangible, visible threat, please do not politicize it. If there is an extinction level event, maybe a big old asteroid, don't take sides and let science and the commercial inventors do its thing.
Dang, that is the strangest yet imaginative take on the situation I've read yet. Satire?

I should modify my prior claim that nobody in this thread changed their opinions, because in fact it seems some have dug in deeper, which sorta counts as change.

You should read "Merchants of Doubt" to get a more fact-based view of how some scientific issues (such as smoking health risks and climate change) get deliberately confused and politicized when big money is at stake.

And just to pick on one trivial claim of yours, it's deeply ingenious to claim one paper quantifying the environmental impact of pets indicates that scientists want to take away all your cats and dogs.

The world is having something off a populist resurgence, and so rejecting whatever college-educated elites have to say is part of that package. In the famous words of an anti-evolution-education activist, somebody has to stand up to these experts! That activist was wrong, obviously.



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And just to pick on one trivial claim of yours, it's deeply ingenious to claim one paper quantifying the environmental impact of pets indicates that scientists want to take away all your cats and dogs.
That's just one instance that set me off. But media is full of such. Now you can't watch Netflix


No meat for you


Big storm? Oh yeah, Climate Change


There are many examples. And I forgot and left off that list, the most important thing of all - The USA has none of the resources.

1973, Oil Embargo. Long lines, Sticker shock at the pump
1979 Long lines, sticker shock at the pump
2019 Cheap and plentiful gas. All those 30 - 40 MPG econo boxes paid off.

Today, the US is about energy independent, the very thing Europe wants. Its naive to think the US will throw that away to be at the mercy of foreign countries, especially in unstable areas like the Congo or potential or actual enemies, such as China. Just totally naive. I really wish more people would learn from History.

Dug in? This is no different than what I said before. IMO, terrible sales personnel. Couldn't sell firewood in the Arctic. The very nature of those selling these concepts alienates those they need to sell. And if you think I'm rejecting what "the college-educated elites" are saying, that's not what I was talking about. Im talking about those that:

1. Sell the product
2. Curate the news
3. Politicize the product.

I never said the climate scientists were wrong, although I do say "so what?" and if there is no GIGO. So what if Greenland is melting. It used to be melted before and will melt again in the future. Think of the economic opportunities for new housing, the moving companies, the money to be made in land speculation, the new vacation spots.

Golden opportunities for someone (if true). The glass is half full.
 

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You should read "Merchants of Doubt" to get a more fact-based view of how some scientific issues (such as smoking health risks and climate change) get deliberately confused and politicized when big money is at stake.
This? https://www.merchantsofdoubt.org


I got no problem with that. Try this https://www.criticalfrequency.org/drilled Same idea.

I always say money drive everything. In the end, its always about the money. Who has it, who controls it, who spends it. Thats why ....

Follow the money. Worry when the land speculators start buying up the Arctic. Until then - meh.
 

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This? https://www.merchantsofdoubt.org


I got no problem with that. Try this https://www.criticalfrequency.org/drilled Same idea.

I always say money drive everything. In the end, its always about the money. Who has it, who controls it, who spends it. Thats why ....

Follow the money. Worry when the land speculators start buying up the Arctic. Until then - meh.
Why are you so stuck on Arctic land speculators? Pretty sure that's neither the only nor the best investment for those who accept climate science. For one thing, the payoff is too far in the future.

I suspect better investments to profit from climate change would be in solar, battery technology, EVs, and construction since so many coastal buildings are in harm's way. So let's say that an influx of solar and EV funding is just as much a bellwether for real climate change acceptance by big money...



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Why are you so stuck on Arctic land speculators? Pretty sure that's neither the only nor the best investment for those who accept climate science. For one thing, the payoff is too far in the future.

I suspect better investments to profit from climate change would be in solar, battery technology, EVs, and construction since so many coastal buildings are in harm's way. So let's say that an influx of solar and EV funding is just as much a bellwether for real climate change acceptance by big money...
  1. Because battery tech cannot evolve fast enough. Even those solid in the EV camp know that the storage of electricity won't happen anytime soon. Electricity is on demand. There must be a time period when next generation nuclear power takes hold, a transition period. This has been discussed and articles are around talking about this. There is not going to be some magic bullet. There will be no magic materials breakthrough. And lithium is a disaster waiting to happen "if" it becomes mainstream and enough fires spur the public into action.
  2. EVs are not profitable. VAG will struggle to make money and they know how to build cars. Tesla hasn't made a penny. They are deep black hole sucking up investors money. Some day, investors will demand a return. Their day will come. EVs are expensive, for the rich. We sit here in a Porsche forum discussing cars sold to upper middle class and the wealthy new, not cars sold to middle class or lower class incomes. You will need to see profits from $20,000 EVs for EVs to be worthwhile for investing.
  3. This has potential, CO2 Scrubbers


But who knows?

4. Solar panels? If governments have to bribe people to buy something, forget about it.

The individual can maybe make some money by pumping electric back into the grid. If you have a windmill, water turbine, etc LOL, doesn't the electric company have to pay you if you pump money back into the grid?

My calling to follow the land speculators is simple. I have no idea why anyone would ever think the earth, its coastlines, it landmasses would ever remain static. Island pop up. Volcanoes explode, Erosion takes down beaches, and human beings rebuild on the beach. They never learn. They keep rebuilding and rebuilding.

It makes no sense to think the Earth is a static system. One day "Scientists say" the continents will drift back together?


Now it doesn't have to be the Arctic, but any tundra or Siberia will do. IMO, if in fact humans are causing a truly massive shift to a runaway greenhouse effect, and not this political drama of "OMG we are all going to die", then the migration shift WILL happen to cooler locations. And I'm not talking about economic migrations from Africa to Europe of Central America to the US. I mean human survival migration.

When the time comes, if ever, that mass public KNOWS they can no longer live where they live, they can no longer rebuild on the Outer Banks after the next hurricane, that the predictions come true and its 100 degrees in the winter in NYC, then they will migrate.

But LONG before that happens, the smart people with money will be buying up the land thats cool. Money makes money. Land speculation has always made money. They ain't making anymore land anywhere, except in Hawaii with some volcanoes. If you see this happening, then the public can start to worry. The truly wealthy didn't become wealthy without knowing something. People do not spend money in massive amounts in wild speculation unless they know the ROI is worth it.

If you want to predict the future, follow the big money, not the near term speculators. Just like the land rush to the California Gold Field or the Gold Fields of the Black Hills. Or watch how the land speculators bought up land for the trains across the continent. Watch where the big money goes in our time today.

Thats why.
 

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Why are you so stuck on Arctic land speculators? Pretty sure that's neither the only nor the best investment for those who accept climate science. For one thing, the payoff is too far in the future.
If you want to predict the future, follow the big money, not the near term speculators.
Brett - Here's an article on short term "mitigation"


Sure, lets rebuild on the beaches. Sounds good. People always rebuild. Then you get the hysteria in the "press"


OMG 😱 This is scary stuff. TERRIFYING! From the Conversation - academics

That article is what the public is fed, bombarded, and hears endlessly. So I'll jump to the end game.

I remember immediate and permanent death of the world. Not predictions, not fake, not computer simulations based upon whether or not the algorithms were correct or the input was garbage. No, I remember when WWIII between super powers would absolutely destroy mankind. I know this was before most people were alive and they have no concept of what it meant for people to actually buy and install bomb shelters in the false hope they would survive thermonuclear war. Then the public started to wise up and realize no one survive. The lucky ones would die immediately. This concept, this idea of actual end of the world (as humans know it) was real.

The problem is lack of experience. Many alive today have no idea, no clue of what means to have the real threat of WWIII over their heads. And even those who do remember, never lived through the world at war. The last of those who remember WWII are very old. They knew what it meant when everything went to an entire world at war. People today? Their concept is a video game. It means nothing to them.

So the intermediate stuff if the climate predictions are true?
  • There will be no magic bullets.
  • There is no worldwide political will. The world is massively diverse with hundreds of different cultures, languages, religions. There are still Cargo Cults. There are still absolute Monarchies. There is still actual communist countries. The world is not free.
  • Everyone is not going to get together, hold hands, and sing campfire songs
  • There will be no world wide government (You can't get 100 people in a room to agree on anything never mind how many on the planet?)
Sounds like doom & gloom. No, l'll play along and believe the endless hysterical headlines. After all, 97% agree. Why should I argue against that. They can't be wrong. So if its all true, go for the end game. After living through the threat of a thermonuclear holocaust, the climate change stuff is nothing. These mitigating strategies are pointless. If they try to stop rising seas, those seas have risen and fallen for the history of the earth and will do so again. The earth is NOT a static system. Ice ages come and go.

People are people. People do what they do. They have vested interests, short lives (in the big scheme of things) and can be very arrogant. This little video at the end shows how puny and how short of a time line we humans have existed. Sometimes people can't grasp macro concepts or how insignificant, in geologic time or the time of the universe, we really are.

So yeah, the money will be in the endgame. And the very rich will profit from it. Follow the real money. Or, maybe its just a meaningless blimp because we don't know what we don't know. Stuff like this cracks me up


Oh no! We don't really know how the universe works. 🤔 Maybe we don't really know what is going on here too?

Puny humans, been around a speck in time.

 

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Chow, again you impress me with your voluminous media consumption and generation. Yet I remain baffled at your ability to read the same articles I read, but come away with such wildly different conclusions.

Your responses introduce so many new interpretations and semi-related topics that I can't even read them all, let alone reply in detail.

But I do want to thank you for sharing that "drilled" podcast link: I've listened to the first episode so far, and it is indeed quite interesting.

And thus concludes my November visit to this mistitled thread.


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But I do want to thank you for sharing that "drilled" podcast link: I've listened to the first episode so far, and it is indeed quite interesting.
Drilled is OK. It shows the Oil Company's problems. Its a good podcast.

And back to our regularly scheduled EV debate, two new comments from car company executives. First BMW


The bottom line is BMW is only making them because of the politicians. Customers don't want them. Much of that is because electricity is too expensive in the EU. The article claims its cheaper to drive a 4 cyl diesel than an EV in Munich :LOL:

And from Honda


joining a small but growing chorus of auto executives in sounding a reality check on aggressive visions for the rapid rollout of electric cars

"EVs will not be mainstream," the Honda CEO said"


Where have I heard that before?

"I do not believe there will be a dramatic increase in demand for battery vehicles, and I believe this situation is true globally," Hachigo said.

Now the key sentence:

"There are different regulations in different countries, and we have to abide by them. So, it's a must to continue r&d," he said. "But I don't believe it will become mainstream anytime soon."

Just like BMW, they sound the same. They build these cars because if they don't, the politicians in some countries will put them out of business, not because anyone (the masses) wants them.
 

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Just like BMW, they sound the same. They build these cars because if they don't, the politicians in some countries will put them out of business, not because anyone (the masses) wants them.
Chow, it is not that masses do not WANT them, they even might want them. The problem is it is very hard to have them realistically.

Been saying that like a parrot for quite some time.

Think ... let us even forget the price of purchase for a second and price of charging vs 3 cylinder diesel consumption ... most people in Japan and EU have issues with PARKING their cars, regardless of what powers them. Knowing how your average Italian neighborhood looks like in the evening with everybody home, I frankly cannot even start to think how to solve the charging problem. Yes, you could start assigning spots on the streets to certain cars which, once they leave for work or for a two-week vacation is not usable anymore for parking any other vehicles and that will clusterf×%#ck half mile radius traffic around that single street.

For all those who have never been, please restrain from suggesting California solutions like "Charge at work and at Walmart. Done." Rest of the world is not California.

I still have to ask ... what in the world is wrong with blowing up H2 inside ICE? Not only you exhale water you can actually drink, but you sound V12 glorious while doing it. Win-win if there ever was one. Why do we have to be so fu#%*cking insane all. The. Time. Why?



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Chow, it is not that masses do not WANT them, they even might want them. The problem is it is very hard to have them realistically.

Been saying that like a parrot for quite some time.

Think ... let us even forget the price of purchase for a second and price of charging vs 3 cylinder diesel consumption ... most people in Japan and EU have issues with PARKING their cars, regardless of what powers them.
True story. I can get youtube on the TV, an app. I was looking at something Japanese and suddenly all my "recommendations" are about life in Japan :rolleyes: I watched a couple and:oops:

Tiny "apartments", more like a room with stuff all over the place. NO place to park. Tiny Micro cars for the 2020 Olympics. Many people packed into those tiny placed. A different life entirely.

Why do we have to be so fu#%*cking insane all. The. Time. Why?
That is an excellent question. 🤔Its WAY OT and would belong in another thread but its a question that should be asked. How and why did the world get so insane? Not going to bring that up here, it belongs elsewhere.
 
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